Feminism

[James]

Have I missed these bans? Was it in this thread?

It was in the episode 173 thread.

Nachimir's screenshot is hilarious and distressing in equal measure.

[Brannigan]

Have I missed these bans? Was it in this thread?

It happened on a few early appearances on the cast by Danielle too, before she was an official regular.

[Erkki]

How did we get anybody bad enough to mute here? I can't imagine being a fan of the podcast (or the old site) being as bad as this Fart guy, don't tell me we actually got a MRA or two here?

Well, it's my personal choice to mute anyone I want (it was not you BusbyBerkeley, and I'm not trying to invite others to mute anyone specific). When reading two weeks worth of posts in this thread in a row, I was just getting really really tired and pissed of some people trying to make "but Zoe Quinn is not that great" as an actual argument in this situation.

[Tanukitsune]

Like I said before, I'm baffled people could enjoy the podcast and have these kind of opinions, but I guess misogynists will delude themselves into thinking anything to suit their views.

 

I couldn't muster the strength to read the full article about the iCould debacle, the title was depressing enough.

[Ben X]

Were all the celebrities female?

 

Anyone? It's only female celebs getting cited, but they're only ever referred to as "celebrities", and there were hundreds of them, apparently. Again, I'm trying not to end up looking at the damn things.

 

Apparently Perez Hilton posted some on his blog, then later apologised and removed them:

 

Celebrity blogger Perez Hilton has apologised for publishing a number of naked images on his website. “I acted in haste just to get the post up and didn't really think things through. I'm sorry,” he said. “At work we often have to make quick decisions. I made a really bad one today and then made it worse. I feel awful and am truly sorry.”

 

Seems like something you wouldn't really have to think through, but then this is the guy who runs a gossip blog and forcibly outs closeted public figures, right? (EDIT: oh, I see from Wikipedia he's also done loads of stuff like this in the past, so this apology is pretty meaningless. Ugh, what a scumbag.)

[JonCole]

Like I said before, I'm baffled people could enjoy the podcast and have these kind of opinions, but I guess misogynists will delude themselves into thinking anything to suit their views.

 

I couldn't muster the strength to read the full article about the iCould debacle, the title was depressing enough.

 

I've muted people re: this Feminist thread, but I would be hesitant to call anyone here misogynist. Frankly, I'd hesitate to call many people misogynist without giving it serious thought. Really, a lot of people are just deluded by the patriarchy embedded in modern culture and can't easily see past it.

 

Anyone? It's only female celebs getting cited, but they're only ever referred to as "celebrities", and there were hundreds of them, apparently. Again, I'm trying not to end up looking at the damn things.

 

Apparently Perez Hilton posted some on his blog, then later apologised and removed them:

 

 

Seems like something you wouldn't really have to think through, but then this is the guy who runs a gossip blog and forcibly outs closeted public figures, right?

 

As far as I can tell, it was only females that were targeted. As a result however some males were captured in the net, most notably Kate Upton's boyfriend who I think is some hockey player - Justin Verlander. 

[MadJackalope]

Well, the comment about tone policing was in response to a different comment of yours but it's applicable to the first part too, I suppose. She disagreed with both the content (eg taking the harassers at face value) as well as the tone of the column you linked, and she provided several examples.  You responded to her by saying "I think your interpretation is uncharitable."

 

"People (women) would get farther if they were not so mean sometimes" is pretty much tone policing.  And I mean, it has some validity occasionally, but it's demonstrably false in this whole situation.  Sarkeesian's videos are as academic as they come.  And yet.

Uncharitable does not mean "mean". Uncharitable means "without sufficient benefit of doubt given". It's kind of jargony I guess, so maybe I should had defined my use of the term but what I mean by using it is that sufficient benifit of the doubt has not be given and that the focus should be placed more on the substance of the argument than on the tone. At least that's my experience using the term in these kinds of contexts and that's what I meant. Also I def don't think tone is an issue with Sarkeesian. 

 

Someone tried to 3D render that horrible Spiderwoman variant cover and oh boy are the results... well, the stuff of nightmares:

 

 

Seeing that led me to this really interesting Tumblr where the the main point is he posts completely unrealistic drawings of women and the people submit "redraws" where they try to adapt or modify the art to actually fit human physiology. The most fascinating part is that if the goal is to make these drawings look really sexy, most of the redraws are pretty much just as conventionally attractive but manage to not contort the body or misrepresent how a body is formed.

I still cannot understand how this shit gets passed over in mainstream comics. The very best comics have never been the ones that indulge in this kind of nonsense, and yet people keep on making it    

In general I'd say the whole focus on superheros in comics is silly to begin with. Why can't we just make comics like people do online that are cool and funny, and maybe include heroes but don't always?

[tegan]

http://gamingsfeministilluminati.com/

 

Where can I get one of these shirts?

 

In general I'd say the whole focus on superheros in comics is silly to begin with. Why can't we just make comics like people do online that are cool and funny, and maybe include heroes but don't always?

 

 

 

 

(I will never stop telling people to read Lumberjanes)

[Nachimir]

It was in the episode 173 thread.

Nachimir's screenshot is hilarious and distressing in equal measure.

 

There's also been a lot of "Let's not include this link, because it disagrees with us". They're listing patreon backers, twitter followers, etc. to "investigate", and I checked to maybe warn a few friends who are on those lists, but I don't think I can watch anymore for the sake of my sanity.

 

Don't really want to post the link publicly because that'd probably help nothing and no one, but if anyone really wants a look, PM me.

 

 

Where can I get one of these shirts?

 

It was here: http://teespring.com/gamingsfeministilluminati

 

Either many more than the seventeen cited there were sold, or I know an improbably high number of those seventeen people. I just googled for a source assuming they'd still be available, and only found Dames Making Games have a couple of XL blue ones: https://dmg.to/blog/gfi-shirts-available

[Problem Machine]

Wait, you guys willingly read Youtube comments?!

For some reason this guy was always top comment on any video he posted on -- maybe because he posted on so many.

[Apelsin]

Wait, wait.... "PressFartToContinue"? I kinda know that him/her.... he/she's constantly posting on GameGrumps and a few other videos and apparently "Fart" is an attention seeker so bad Fart's been banned from from a few YouTube channels for harassing and being a jerk.

 

I remember hearing that he had somehow got outed as stalking Dodger (Youtuber with the PressHeartToContinue handle) which was the cause for his banning. Not sure whether that is true though as it was only mentioned in a reply to a Youtube comment asking where he had gone.

 

Edit: Damn, reading your link he seems so much worse than I ever saw in those of his comments I was privvy too. Just shows how much shit we miss. :/

[juv3nal]

Where can I get one of these shirts?

 

Elizabeth Simins says they're coming back, but hasn't offered up any more details:

https://twitter.com/ElizSimins/status/505745869900369922

[Ozzie]

I hope so! I would love to wear one the next time I'm on stage. I would prefer the Social Justice Warrior t-shirt, but this one is good, too!

[syntheticgerbil]

I think I'm just going to throw this out there because it's kind of been bugging me in this thread. I like JonTron's videos a lot and I guess I'm a juvenile for often finding them funny but I tend to gravitate towards liking things both high brow and low brow or some mix inbetween and often my tastes don't really lie with most of the games discussed on the Idle forums. It doesn't really bother me but I guess I sort of feel like I'm supposed to feel like a bad person or an idiot for liking JonTron. I find him a bit different than most of the Let's Play junk on Youtube (which I generally just avoid), even his run on Game Grumps is not really very good or listenable, but I think his videos are a lot of fun because they are well edited and snappy and generally approach games that no one would ever really talk about. His older videos when he started are mostly top 10 shit, but the stuff he's done in the last year I felt has been mostly flawless.

 

So that said sometimes JonTron stuff is a little too base for me, but also sometimes Idle Thumbs podcast is a little bit over my head. I feel like that's okay, I'm kind of a stupid guy and it's really hard to find things that hit all the right spots. I used to think I was pretty smart and was righteous about it when I was younger but I kind of settled in realizing I'm a pretty mediocre dude as I get older.

 

So that all said, sometimes I feel like a lot of the feminism in games going on has been getting extreme lately and sort of nitpicking but my take is that eventually it will calm down as things change and shift towards more equality of representation in this particular media and I can stop feeling on edge every week or a little bad about myself as a white privileged (? (I'm sort of a broke loser)) male.

 

So back on JonTron, he has been a major butt lately and has been stirring the pot for what seems like no reason. He seems to think that he should speak up because he feels like he is taking a more moderate view and that people are getting too PC, but then in turn he gets held up as a pariah by a group of people that don't actually seem to really align their views with his, but think they do. There recent podcast that CynicalBrit runs with JesseCox and PressHearttoContinue sort of ends up with them trying to explain aspects of JonTron's thinking as wrong and my only hope is maybe he better understands his foolishness in things like calling someone retarded, linking to a terrible gang bang comic, or responding first to Tim Schafer that Anita Sarkeesian's newest video is somehow invalid because comments are disabled (did he miss why?) before actually making his point. So on the sensitivity issue I totally see where he's coming from as it bothers me a bit too, but I also wish he'd realize all the stupid shit he is doing and saying. He hasn't apologized once but at the same time claims that things do have to change with the representation of women in games, at least on that podcast, not his damn twitter.

 

Also I really don't like agreeing with CynicalBrit's side because I really don't like that guy and this is before he stirred the Zoe Quinn pot with his stupid comments, but PressHeart made a lot of good points yet was spoken over a lot on the podcast which made me roll my eyes.

 

I guess this is to say, I don't think JonTron is a bad guy at all, and he's not a misogynist, I will say that with confidence. He's not perfect and has a lot of understanding to do. I think if the guy were my friend I couldn't really hate him for having his opinion and sticking to it if he's not directly or intentionally trying to harm anyone but I would call him out on it and argue with him.

 

And maybe a little of my personal life is in order here. I sort of think of people on Idlethumbs as friends or people I really like if that's strong and strangely a lot of people's opinions here seem to align very well. The current set of users here probably comprise my favorite Thumbs Forum formation yet. My real life friends don't really seem to align well either. I have a screenwriter buddy who hates the Bechdel test and finds it unfair and is also tired of a lot of nitpicking. One of my very best friends is a guy that still frequents 4chan and condemns Zoe Quinn, although I like to think I changed a lot of his thought after arguing with him recently. He's sort of a friend for nearly a decade ago and is my friend from when I was a much worse person and a major jerk, also being one to frequent 4chan, but perhaps I moved on a lot and he didn't so much. My wife is really big on slut shaming and doesn't see anything wrong with criticizing women for wearing too little or sleeping around. Another one of my close friends posts a lot in comments on Jezebel and a lot of gaming blogs crying for better representation of women in games and loving Anita videos, yet she likes to dismiss other women she doesn't like as bitches and cunts. I mean these people are important in my life and the most I can do is disagree with them, argue with them, and try to push them in the direction I feel is right, but I'm not going to decide they are no good or intentionally separate myself from them.

 

I sort of forgot if I was going anywhere further with this post or had something else to say, so I'll just end it here.

[Gormongous]

I sort of forgot if I was going anywhere further with this post or had something else to say, so I'll just end it here.

 

I don't have much to say about liking or disliking JonTron, except that it reminds me of about a year ago, when we were talking what boycotting PAX accomplishes versus trying to change it from within. I think both approaches have their merits, but people need to do what's good for them, and I'm personally trying to get better at not censuring someone for not seeing the same as I do the solution to a problem that we both see.

 

I do really wonder what my own response would be if I were a YouTube celebrity who woke up one morning and discovered my audience was on the wrong side of a major social issue. I know which side my bread's buttered on, so do I endanger my livelihood to take a stand for progress? Do I try to moderate my audience by setting myself up as a "reasonable" voice for their concerns? Do I ride the hate wave wherever it takes me? Do I stay silent and hope that everyone takes my lack of involvement to mean agreement with whatever their own personal views are? There have been people who have taken all of these routes in the last few weeks. I know that the high ground is what I've always gone for, even if it means weathering assholes and being unpopular, but then I've never been successful enough for here to be anything more at stake than my ability to sleep at night. I'd like to think I'd always do the right thing, but as we've seen, we live in a culture (and subculture) where conspicuous acts of hate are the "easy way out" oftentimes.

[Ozzie]

I like JonTron's videos, too, they're intelligently made dumb entertainment and lots of fun to watch. Too bad the guy himself is a jerk. I don't think I will continue watching his videos, they're kinda impossible to enjoy now that I know what kind of character he is. Hopefully he'll continue to grow up. He shouldn't whine about too much sensitivity in regards to issues he's not the victim of. He can't say unnice things about Zoe Quinn at an inopportune time and not be naive in thinking that he isn't giving ammunition to the wrong people, and not be a wimp when he complains that Tim Schafer is mobbing him because Tim re-tweeted a tweet of Jon's and commented on it. The guy lacks perspective in a remarkable way.

Still, humans have thankfully the ability to reflect and grow, and I hope he will use some time to reflect on his behaviour.

[syntheticgerbil]

I don't have much to say about liking or disliking JonTron, except that it reminds me of about a year ago, when we were talking what boycotting PAX accomplishes versus trying to change it from within. I think both approaches have their merits, but people need to do what's good for them, and I'm personally trying to get better at not censuring someone for seeing the solution to a problem we both see the same as I do.

Yeah I think I've changed my mind some on my gut reaction to Mike at Penny Arcade and condemning everything involved. A lot of my writing the guy off was fueled by my complete hate of the comic I've always had and a lot of annoyance at the non apologies. But I'd like to think the guy could change and maybe things will get better and more inclusive concerning PAX and such. That said I will probably never go to a PAX even if it were in or near my city and I hope there can be another huge video gaming expo out there to choose from. Not fucking Screw Attack though, ugh.

 

I think part of it is on one side I found myself sort of defending Doug TenNapel as probably a good guy deep inside when Armikrog premiered on Kickstarter, even though the guy has constantly had shitty opinions for years and kept saying really offensive things on his gut reaction that he should have a right to say stuff and be a hateful right wing Christian, but then continuously apologizing either because he was truly sorry or more cynically wanting to not abandon his overwhelming audience of "lefties." I do hope he starts to grow after hearing that a long interview he had sometime in the middle of the Kickstarter campaign where he started to cry because he was struggling with the fact that his dumb opinions were affecting his friends and he has kids growing up that will mostly likely start disagreeing with him, but do fear that he'll be up to the same shit after the game is released.

I like JonTron's videos, too, they're intelligently made dumb entertainment and lots of fun to watch. Too bad the guy himself is a jerk. I don't think I will continue watching his videos, they're kinda impossible to enjoy now that I know what kind of character he is. Hopefully he'll continue to grow up. He shouldn't whine about too much sensitivity in regards to issues he's not the victim of. He can't say unnice things about Zoe Quinn at an inopportune time and not be naive in thinking that he isn't giving ammunition to the wrong people, and not be a wimp when he complains that Tim Schafer is mobbing him because Tim re-tweeted a tweet of Jon's and commented on it. The guy lacks perspective in a remarkable way.

Still, humans have thankfully the ability to reflect and grow, and I hope he will use some time to reflect on his behaviour.

Agree 100%, though I'll probably continue to watch his videos. They don't really reflect the content of his crappy and flippant opinions, except for an unfunny side comment on his Titenic video which kind of marred an otherwise great video on some stupid bootleg games. My hope is he'll continue to think about this stuff, especially after the 30 minutes or so of discussion on the Cooptional podcast.

[Problem Machine]

I don't think there's anything wrong with liking someone who's been kind of a dick, or liking the content they produce. No one's perfect, and it's important to still be able to be friends and enjoy each others' company while not seeing eye-to-eye.

That said, I'm super fucking glad that, as far as I know, none of the youtubers I regularly follow seem to have said anything particularly stupid on the subject. It's an uncomfortable position to be in, since certain gaming channels on youtube really brighten my day sometimes, I would find it really weird to have to give one up.

[Henroid]

So that said sometimes JonTron stuff is a little too base for me, but also sometimes Idle Thumbs podcast is a little bit over my head. I feel like that's okay, I'm kind of a stupid guy and it's really hard to find things that hit all the right spots. I used to think I was pretty smart and was righteous about it when I was younger but I kind of settled in realizing I'm a pretty mediocre dude as I get older.

This isn't about either show specifically but I feel the same way with content I watch/listen to. There's nothing wrong with either; enjoying the more 'base' stuff is a sign of not being wound up tight as a personality. And with the latter, the stuff where discussions can get overwhelming, it's something to aspire to (in terms of understanding and being able to discuss, and knowledge gained).

[tegan]

I was weirded out when JonTron left Game Grumps and was immediately replaced by Danny, because the whole premise of the show was that Danny and Erin are best friends playing games and how do you just replace someone in that situation? Then it turned out Danny was actually a way cooler dude, and this week makes me feel like Jon and Erin were drifting apart anyway.

 

 

Also, I was recommending a manga to a friend just now and found this discussion thread on mangafox:

 

 

This is for an LGBT manga with a mostly-female cast that ran for eleven years.

[Problem Machine]

Presumably he read it for 11 years waiting for God to smite them.

[Tanukitsune]

I think the best JonTron said was something in the vein of "I'm not one of them, but I don't care if you believe me or not.", I guess he was just didn't care after all the trouble he got with the ableist slur he used, which I don't even know if he ever apologized for.

 

Wait... could it be that this PressFart guy somehow "rallied the troops" into thinking JonTron was on their side? Although I'm pretty sure he left Game Grumps because he couldn't find time to do his own videos.

[Griddlelol]

 I like JonTron's videos a lot and I guess I'm a juvenile for often finding them funny but I tend to gravitate towards liking things both high brow and low brow or some mix inbetween and often my tastes don't really lie with most of the games discussed on the Idle forums. It doesn't really bother me but I guess I sort of feel like I'm supposed to feel like a bad person or an idiot for liking JonTron. 

 

I hope what I said hasn't made you feel bad, or stupid for liking JonTron. I like plenty of dumb comedy, just not his "brand." Hell I've watched hundreds of hours of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and that's really low brow stuff. 

 

I was also thinking about TotalBiscuit's response which amounted to "I'm going to take the middle ground, people on both sides are extreme." That's just such a bullshit non-statement. How exactly do you take the middle ground between harassment with gender prejudice and no harassment with hopes of gender equality? 

[tegan]

I was also thinking about TotalBiscuit's response which amounted to "I'm going to take the middle ground, people on both sides are extreme." That's just such a bullshit non-statement. How exactly do you take the middle ground between harassment with gender prejudice and no harassment with hopes of gender equality? 

 

TotalBiscuit's response really pisses me off because he was among the first big names to condemn Zoe Quinn for a breach of "journalistic ethics." He must know that this is at least partially his own fault, right?

 

...I'm still mad that he had the nerve to say that when he openly accepts money from publishers for covering their games.

[Twig]

...I'm still mad that he had the nerve to say that when he openly accepts money from publishers for covering their games.

This is what baffles me the most. Like it's just absolutely insane that he doesn't recognize the hypocrisy here.