Jump to content
Roderick

Feminism

Recommended Posts

Heh, I must confess that I don't know who that is! I started this topic to tackle the spilling in the comical pictures thread, and feminism may be comical, but it's just not a picture.

:getmecoat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don't like feminism, you're either a man afraid of losing your privileged position in society, or you have glorious misconceptions about what feminism is.

:wtf:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, it's just those two options? The world isn't binary, and never will, no matter how much certain group claim it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are vague enough to encompass everyone. I hope you fall into the second category! :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering I don't have a privileged position in society I apparently must be.

edit: wait, you tricked me. I never said I didn't like feminism. I only said I didn't like part of the group that make up feminists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Considering I don't have a privileged position in society I apparently must be.

Are you sure?

Are you white, male, and in a first world country?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all for a society in which both (all, even) genders are given the same opportunities, the same recognition and reward for the same effort, while at the same time recognizing the actual physical differences between the genders. I'm pretty sure this is the way most of us feel (though I've been known to be spectacularly wrong about things!) My little, unimportant issue with feminism is with the word itself, and is similar to my problem with the word pedophile (wait, let me explain!) and it simply has to do with what I feel the word actually should mean, and what it actually means. To start with the latter term, it always irks me when people get all riled up over pedophiles, when I feel they should be riled up over child molesters. Philia means love, not rape. Similarly – although not very – the word feminism to me suggests something more than the the sentiments I described initially – to me it sounds like it's aiming for something too far in the other direction. As I said, these are some minor, unimportant issues I have with the term itself. I think measures that "force" the norm (affirmative action, I believe it's called?) are justifiable, but only to balance the scales faster, so to speak.

I'm going to post this, even though I think it's a bit lame, looking back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm all for a society in which both (all, even) genders are given the same opportunities, the same recognition and reward for the same effort, while at the same time recognizing the actual physical differences between the genders. I'm pretty sure this is the way most of us feel (though I've been known to be spectacularly wrong about things!) My little, unimportant issue with feminism is with the word itself, and is similar to my problem with the word pedophile (wait, let me explain!) and it simply has to do with what I feel the word actually should mean, and what it actually means. To start with the latter term, it always irks me when people get all riled up over pedophiles, when I feel they should be riled up over child molesters. Philia means love, not rape. Similarly – although not very – the word feminism to me suggests something more than the the sentiments I described initially – to me it sounds like it's aiming for something too far in the other direction. As I said, these are some minor, unimportant issues I have with the term itself. I think measures that "force" the norm (affirmative action, I believe it's called?) are justifiable, but only to balance the scales faster, so to speak.

I'm going to post this, even though I think it's a bit lame, looking back.

can we take a brief pause from the subject matter at hand to just admire toblix's english? for a non-native speaker, i mean. you have better english than i do. props.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm all for a society in which both (all, even) genders are given the same opportunities, the same recognition and reward for the same effort, while at the same time recognizing the actual physical differences between the genders. I'm pretty sure this is the way most of us feel (though I've been known to be spectacularly wrong about things!) My little, unimportant issue with feminism is with the word itself, and is similar to my problem with the word pedophile (wait, let me explain!) and it simply has to do with what I feel the word actually should mean, and what it actually means. To start with the latter term, it always irks me when people get all riled up over pedophiles, when I feel they should be riled up over child molesters. Philia means love, not rape. Similarly – although not very – the word feminism to me suggests something more than the the sentiments I described initially – to me it sounds like it's aiming for something too far in the other direction. As I said, these are some minor, unimportant issues I have with the term itself. I think measures that "force" the norm (affirmative action, I believe it's called?) are justifiable, but only to balance the scales faster, so to speak.

I'm going to post this, even though I think it's a bit lame, looking back.

This is the problem with all you non-native English-speakers: you expect the language to make sense and be consistent. Pure folly.

I don't really have much of a problem with either term. The English word "love" has long been used in some instances as a euphemistic term for "sex" (although it might be seen as quite a tasteless equivocation in this instance), and feminism is a struggle for equality for a specific group: women. I can see why you might object to the terms, and I don't begrudge you doing so, but I don't really see them as particularly egregious or any more etymologically loose or imprecise than large portions of the rest of the language, or the languages that came before it.

That said, IANALinguist.

Also, yes, Toblix's English is excellent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm all for a society in which both (all, even) genders are given the same opportunities, the same recognition and reward for the same effort, while at the same time recognizing the actual physical differences between the genders. I'm pretty sure this is the way most of us feel (though I've been known to be spectacularly wrong about things!) My little, unimportant issue with feminism is with the word itself, and is similar to my problem with the word pedophile (wait, let me explain!) and it simply has to do with what I feel the word actually should mean, and what it actually means. To start with the latter term, it always irks me when people get all riled up over pedophiles, when I feel they should be riled up over child molesters. Philia means love, not rape. Similarly – although not very – the word feminism to me suggests something more than the the sentiments I described initially – to me it sounds like it's aiming for something too far in the other direction. As I said, these are some minor, unimportant issues I have with the term itself. I think measures that "force" the norm (affirmative action, I believe it's called?) are justifiable, but only to balance the scales faster, so to speak.

I'm going to post this, even though I think it's a bit lame, looking back.

I wholeheartedly agree. Feminism being named "feminism" (suggesting the opposite of chauvinism?) is probably what has contributed the most to make people jump to conclusions about what it is. The word seems to imply that it is about femininity and females when really it would be more aptly named "egalitarianism".

Unfortunately that's its name and hey did you know peanuts are neither peas nor nuts?

Here is a quick Wikipedia definition:

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.[1][2][3] Its concepts overlap with those of women's rights. Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, some feminists argue that men's liberation is therefore a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles. Feminists are "person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism."[4]

Feminist theory exists in a variety of disciplines, it emerged from these feminist movements[5][6] and includes general theories[specify] and theories about the origins of inequality, and, in some cases, about the social construction of sex and gender. Feminist activists have campaigned for women's rights—such as in contract, property, and voting — while also promoting women's rights to bodily integrity and autonomy and reproductive rights. They have opposed domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault. In economics, they have advocated for workplace rights, including equal pay and opportunities for careers and to start businesses.

Some of the earlier forms of feminism have been criticized for being geared towards white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically-specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with with toblix (and with tobix's English). Furthermore, some people are under the impression that feminism is a of female counterpart of male chauvinism, which makes discussing the matter with them quite pointless.

What I actually wanted to do was to lighten up the mood with this gem of a video

XA7KFrTz1U0

Edit: Apparently I type very slowly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with with toblix (and with tobix's English). Furthermore, some people are under the impression that feminism is a of female counterpart of male chauvinism, which makes discussing the matter with them quite pointless.

I agree entirely that such people exist, but I propose that a significant portion of them are also the kind of people who object to having an opinion outright because they object to some outlier examples of PC thought (renaming Christmas, for example). I don't think the word is the main thing riling them; I think it's the ridiculous stories they hear about how it's no longer permissible to make eye contact with women, or whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually with you on the paedophile thing, 'blix. It's my view that it's not someone's fault if they're attracted to children, but it is their fault if they act on it. Someone who can't prevent being attracted to a child but never acts on it is still a paedophile, but recognizing that it is wrong and harmful to the child and thus denying their urges I would say is actually worthy of some praise for the self control they exercise for the good of others. This is, however, ridiculously off topic.

I don't know what I can say that I already didn't in the other thread. In my experience, everyone I've ever met who would say something like "ugh, feminism" is either grossly misinformed of what feminism is or a raging misogynist. I, personally, would class myself as a radical feminist. To bring latin back into it, this does not mean radical as in "I want to blow shit up for ladies' rights" but radical as in "radis" the latin word for "root". I believe that the problems of inequality in our society are so ingrained in our centuries of mistreatment of those who are not straight, white, and male as to be impossible to remove without uprooting a good chunk of what society is based on. Until that can be done, I don't think that true equality for other races and genders will exist and that saddens me greatly. As a straight white male, I feel that I have a duty to speak up when given the opportunity, as other straight white males are much more likely to actually take what I say seriously compared to the dismissive attitude they would take towards a woman or minority saying the same thing.

I wrote a bunch more, but I just sounded preachy. I'll lay off here and wait for some more contributions from others. Hopefully subbes will get in here, as after seeing this come up after she posted that comic, I'd be interested to hear her thoughts. I always feel weird discussing feminism and women's issues without any women involved in the conversation (no offense, Joanna. Your posts were just offhand comments on what others said so I wasn't sure how to interpret them. By all means, write us an essay here), as I'm self-conscious of being a white guy speaking as if I know what's best for the ladies.

EDIT: A bunch of things got written while I was typing this. I'd like to also throw in that I see feminism as a benefit to all genders. I've had my teeth knocked loose for wearing brightly coloured socks, and rocks/a slurpee thrown at me from a moving pickup truck because I was wearing a yellow shirt (the exclamation of "nice shirt, fag!" caused me to judge this as the reason). If I've been gay-bashed twice and I'm straight, I can't imagine how tough it must be for actual homosexuals. I see feminism as encompassing the fight for GLBT rights as well, as gender equality should work for all genders. If feminism were to succeed, gay-bashing would be out as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree entirely that such people exist, but I propose that a significant portion of them are also the kind of people who object to having an opinion outright because they object to some outlier examples of PC thought (renaming Christmas, for example). I don't think the word is the main thing riling them; I think it's the ridiculous stories they hear about how it's no longer permissible to make eye contact with women, or whatever.

Agreed. I know disappointingly many people that fit the description perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Miffy, have you seen The Woodsman?

That's the Kevin ***** movie, right? I remember wanting to see it, but never did get around to it.

EDIT: Haha. B-a-c-o-n censorship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll lay off here and wait for some more contributions from others. Hopefully subbes will get in here, as after seeing this come up after she posted that comic, I'd be interested to hear her thoughts. I always feel weird discussing feminism and women's issues without any women involved in the conversation [...], as I'm self-conscious of being a white guy speaking as if I know what's best for the ladies.

I am pretty sure Sal Limones lacks the Y chromosome.

What with being married to her, surprise!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
no offense, Joanna. Your posts were just offhand comments on what others said so I wasn't sure how to interpret them. By all means, write us an essay here

none taken at all, i definitely wasn't getting involved at all, just having a bit of banter. in terms of contemporary feminism caitlin moran makes a really intelligent and coherent argument, essentially boiling down to, "we're all actually feminists, unless we actively go out of our way to suppress women purely for being women". that's a pretty small pool of people. I don't see the point in arguing semantics. i've never, ever interpreted something said to me as chauvinist, but then, to be blunt, i have a really good job and a lot of qualifications, and i almost exclusively work with men. so i probably don't have much to say on the matter, society's done alright by me :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can see why you might object to the terms, and I don't begrudge you doing so, but I don't really see them as particularly egregious or any more etymologically loose or imprecise than large portions of the rest of the language, or the languages that came before it.

Well, what other words ending with -philia refers to raping and molestating the stem? As far as I can tell (and I feel sort of backed up by a quick Wikipedia perusal) the definition of the term really does fit with all the others, and – understandably, to be sure – the horrors of child molestation are tightly linked to it, but I think it's a shame that those who suffer from it (and what a terrible fate it must be!) gets the rapist rep compounded onto them automatically, even though there are bound to be otherwise healthy people that have "successfully" struggled with it, and the associated shame, their entire lives; not being able to talk about it with anyone, even to seek help or treatment. And of course, there is no proper help or treatment. Anyway, this should probably go in a thread called Pedophilia (certainly bound to be a popular one!) since it has no bearing on the matter of feminism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, what other words ending with -philia refers to raping and molestating the stem? As far as I can tell (and I feel sort of backed up by a quick Wikipedia perusal) the definition of the term really does fit with all the others, and – understandably, to be sure – the horrors of child molestation are tightly linked to it, but I think it's a shame that those who suffer from it (and what a terrible fate it must be!) gets the rapist rep compounded onto them automatically, even though there are bound to be otherwise healthy people that have "successfully" struggled with it, and the associated shame, their entire lives; not being able to talk about it with anyone, even to seek help or treatment. And of course, there is no proper help or treatment. Anyway, this should probably go in a thread called Pedophilia (certainly bound to be a popular one!) since it has no bearing on the matter of feminism.

Very strongly agreed. High five, 'blix!

I am pretty sure Sal Limones lacks the Y chromosome.

What with being married to her, surprise!

Oh shit! Welcome, wife of Kingz! I had no idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×