Feminism

[BigJKO]

You know, in retrospect, I think I was looking at this from the wrong angle. This is a good point that, even though it was pointed out to me earlier, I forgot. I think what I said is still true, but it doesn't really matter because that wasn't so much the point, probably. My bad!

 

EDIT: Also, no worries! I didn't think you were being confrontational at all.

Also looking forward to the third video, if only for a slight pause in all these embarrassing clips. The second video was some pretty grim and awful stuff, and had me constantly glancing over at my girlfriend wondering what she thought of all the god-awful game dialogue performed in a way that made it sound like the beginnings of a porno..

[Laxan]

On a slightly unrelated tangent: I was playing Borderlands 2 (which is prominently featured in the video) recently and Lilith - who has been captured and made the quintessential damsel in distress - instructs you to kill her if you can't help her escape. She says: "I'd rather die than be a damsel." Which is to say, she'd prefer to be a fridge woman variant of the damsel trope, which is fascinating not the least because the writers clearly recognized how worn out the trope they were using was and used it anyway and additionally made it kind of worse by doubling up the trope with another even creepier one. It's making me very...

 

The writer of BL2 is at least acknowledging his usage of the trope:https://twitter.com/reverendanthony/status/339484894956765185

[Argobot]

"I want you to kill me if I become a cliche."

 

*Raises gun*

 

"Woah, wait. What are you doing?"

 

"Isn't asking someone to kill you for being a cliche, kind of a cliche itself?"

 

"Hmm, maybe we should have put more thought into this narrative point."

 

 

And scene.

[Twig]

The writer of BL2 is at least acknowledging his usage of the trope:https://twitter.com/reverendanthony/status/339484894956765185

I like how Anthony Burch acknowledges his mistake, and then someone is like "no, you didn't make a mistake".

[castorp]

That was me.

Cool!

[tegan]

Really curious to see what is in part 3. Elaine from Monkey Island is the tease image for "flipping the script" on the damsel, but across the five Monkey Island games she has had a really bumpy ride, with probably the most weird stuff in the fifth game.

 

Same here.

 

Predictions: Samus, Faith from Mirror's Edge, and Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, and Chell from Portal; though not necessarily as entirely positive examples.

 

Wishful thinking: Jill and Jill.

[Joewintergreen]

I think Mona Sax in Max Payne 1 and 2'd be worth a mention. In 1 the only time she's ever in trouble she gets herself out of it offscreen, and in 2 Max is repeatedly put in the damsel position whereupon Mona valiantly saves his ass.

Then at the end of the game she has the line "God, I turned out to be such a damsel in distress". Pertinent!

[toblix]

What is this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22706896 Is this a tabloid misrepresentation of something fantastic? Is this real life?

[Gormongous]

What is this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22706896 Is this a tabloid misrepresentation of something fantastic? Is this real life?

 

Objectification: the TV Show!

[BigJKO]

It's real. Saw it the other day on TV. Switched the channel almost immediately. Aside from being sexist, existing solely for Blachmann's bullshit "emasculation" rethoric, it is also just unbelievably boring.

[Erkki]

Cool!

It has now been restored again, though.

[Ben X]

Is there a note on why it was deleted? I don't know how to work Wikipedia. Is it "Not worth mentioning considering the previous sentence, also a dubious question to ask, probably not important for this article"? And which mystery person made this edit? Will it just be undone again by someone else?!

 

At least some of these questions have now been answered!

[castorp]

And the reason why the deletion was undone is:

It's actually important to ask what the test compares fiction to.

This is dumb!

[Argobot]

Writer Lindy West and comic Jim Norton have a debate on the use of rape jokes in comedy and it's actually completely fascinating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GtUb_E1qUHA

 

It's astounding to me that in 2013, it's controversial to have someone suggest that not all rape jokes are created equal and that maybe comics should have a little more nuance beyond: "lol, rape women, fart."

[Joewintergreen]

Is it controversial? I think everyone in that video pretty much agrees with that statement

[Roderick]

That was an intelligent and fun debate, with the two sides both airing legitimate counterpoints and nuances.

[Argobot]

Is it controversial? I think everyone in that video pretty much agrees with that statement

 

In the video they definitely do, but that civility does not extend to the general public, sadly http://jezebel.com/if-comedy-has-no-lady-problem-why-am-i-getting-so-many-511214385

[Roderick]

Saddening.

[Ben X]

This is linked to in that article, and is a really good summary of her position. A good one to link to for internet debates (there should be a term for articles that you do that with):

 

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

[Dirk Anger]

I always considered this to be a genuinely funny rape joke:

[Patrick R]

I remember a discussion I had with my ex about rape jokes, and I came to the conclusion that there are plenty of good jokes about rape culture, but pretty much no good ones about the act of rape itself. The same way that tons of material can be mined from racism, but pretty much only tasteless jokes can stem from jokes about hate crimes.

 

John Mulaney has a good joke about rape culture:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys_Hi8nV7yM

[Dewar]

Oh hey, look who's back.

 

 

 

Damsel in Distress Vid

 

 

 

Funny thing, my wife was watching this video as I left for work today and parts of it bothered me so much that I spent work reading a 40 page thread on Feminism so I could comment at the end and make sure that I'm not retreading old ground. I guess in that sense it did its job very well Let me start by saying that I only heard bits of it, and this is pretty much just an emotional train-of-thought thing that was running through my head this morning.

 

I, as a guy, have been sold from a very young age that women are to be protected. That comes from a lot of different societal (and sexist) tropes such as being told not to hit girls, being expected to be the bread winner for the family, having a stay-at-home mom myself, etc. It seems natural to me that a game designer would play on that upbringing with a damsel in distress trope (however overused it might be) to be garanteed to get the biggest emotional reaction from the widest audience (even though that "widest audience" excludes homosexuals and women.) I find it hard to fault the game writers and designers, even though they are continuing to enforce a stereotype.

 

More personally, I find it hard to figure out what I should be doing in life. I feel like I should be refusing to help women, cause they should be strong and do it themselves I guess? I have turned down financial assistance in the past when I was on tough times, but have offered that assistance to my wife (then girlfriend) who I had no obligations to at the time. If a guy friend has a problem, we basically say "that sucks" and go have a drink. When a girl friend has a problem I listen and sympathise in a completely different way. Is that sexists? I'm confused because I feel like I'm the bad guy no matter what I do.

 

I know that last paragraph sounds a bit silly, but I don't know what other clarification I should give. Anyway, discuss I guess, or at least I feel better for getting some of it off my chest.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Just because you are raised to treat people a certain way does not mean you should treat them a certain way or tell stories that constantly justify treating them a certain way. What is wrong with the damsel stuff is not that you help women but that you see them as damsels in distress. You shouldn't refuse to help women any more than you refuse to help men, and the issue is treating women differently, or more accurately treating women in a way that reinforces societal stereotypes that have hurtful results for women.

[Zeusthecat]

I actually think Dewar makes a decent point about treating women equal vs giving women special treatment. It can be a weird line to straddle considering the fact that women should be treated equally while at the same time there is so much societal pressure to let women go first, always open doors for women, etc.

My answer to that is that everyone should do all of these things for men and women. Open doors for any human you see and let others go first when appropriate. Help a guy out in the same way you might help a woman. That's just decent human behavior that should apply to anyone.

[Gormongous]

I'm confused because I feel like I'm the bad guy no matter what I do.

 

I want to jump on this, because it can't be said enough: you're not a bad person for thinking or doing sexist things, unless you persist in them once you know they're sexist. All of us here, even the staunchest feminists, are sexist at one point or another, not only because we're human, but also because we live in a sexist society where sexism is the aggressively defended norm. That's not to say you're not responsible for yourself, but you're not tainted or corrupted because of it.