Feminism

[tegan]

I don't understand what a game intentionally see "just for men" or "just for women" would even look lie.

 

Those Sega arcade games built into urinals and Rez, respectively.

 

I'm not about to touch this argument with a ten-meter cattle prod, but totally worth noting: The Sims series has sold better than the Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, or Madden series and three times as much as Halo series. In fact it's the best-selling PC game series ever made, and is topped in overall success only by Mario, Pokémon, and the Wii _____ series of games. So, yeah.

[Lu]

Those Sega arcade games built into urinals and Rez, respectively.

 

Not necessarily.

 

 

[thestalkinghead]

i like the sims (not the expansions) but i don't actually think there has been a serious big budget woman game, so the sims was the closest i could come up with, although i would still say it's a woman game, that doesn't affect my manliness that i have played like 80+ hours of the sims 3 and that i don't even know about the other two, i just think it is more a woman game

[clyde]

I just watched the third Anita Sarkeesian video. I would have never funded this series, but I sure am getting a lot out of it. She's doing an awesome job of explaining these super confusing issues.

[thestalkinghead]

by woman game i mean like a "chick flick" or "rom com" of games and the woman game i was imagining was more like heavy rain the chick flick than the sims

[agorman]

well it will be hard to explain what i mean by men games and women games without using some tropes and stereotypes as examples unless i was going to write a whole essay on it, but as one example of a game for men would be an all out adrenaline fueled action game about manly men doing manly things (like arm wrestling, beer drinking and destroying things) talking manly shit (like making fun of eachother and honor) and throw in a self sacrificial father figure and you have a man game, basically dumb shit that generally only men like (maybe needs more but it's hard to come up with on the spot, but basically gears of war) 

 

now for a woman game (where i will be ripped to shreds but i will try) that would be more about interpersonal relationships and women doing women things (like hugging, chocolate eating and decorating things) and talking woman shit (like complimenting each other and love) throw in a strong, loving but argumentative mother figure and you have a women game, basically dumb shit that generally only women like (i would play that as well and i didn't initially think of it but basically the sims)

 

thats not so say you can't also make gender neutral or less gender bias games as well, but why not just be honest and say this is made for men/women but it's totally cool if both genders play it

...

[Justin Leego]

Well, bravo for offering examples in the face of certain shred-ripping anyway.

 

So, about manly and womanly interests... if a one-year-old child shows interest in a vacuum cleaner, can we say that they are already displaying feminine interests? What if the vacuum cleaner is manufactured by a power tools company, does that change things? Is it a display of masculine interests now?

 

 

Is a pram like this for boys or girls?

 

Stuff like arm wrestling [squirming infants], hard drinking (will you be getting trolleyed on Bailey's or Cosmo tonight?), destructive behavior, non-sexual physical contact, consumption of foods high in sugars and fats, home improvements... surely this is as much about whatever a society has decreed to be an acceptable male or female activity as it is about a person's behavior in the first place?

 

For example, Latin and Mediterranian cultures tend to be very much up on physical contact in comparison to Northern Europeans (particularly Brits).

[BigJKO]

This is amazing. Obviously the solution to sexism is just get over it and realize that what women want is to eat chocolate in a game..

stalkinghead, you've really outdone yourself there.

[thestalkinghead]

who plays the game and who it is designed for is a separate matter, i hope that is clear when i say a game designed for men i don't mean women aren't allowed to play it or even that women won't enjoy it but just simply that men would generally get more enjoyment out of it because it is designed for them.

 

there is obviously a whole nature Vs nurture debate and there are tonnes of scientific studies about it, but scientifically speaking men and women are different, their brains develop differently and are generally more adept at certain tasks than others, I'm not saying one brain is better than the other, but there are tasks that men are generally better at than women (like 3d perception and hand eye coordination) and things that women are generally better at (like communication and multitasking)

this doesn't mean that all men are better than women a with hand eye coordination and all women are better than man at multitasking but there is a strong trend that shouldn't just be ignored just because we like to think of everybody as equal.

 

obviously when it comes to cultural differences between men and women it is a lot harder to know what is nature and what is nurture eg. would armwrestling be a manly thing to do if there were no cultural gender bias surrounding it? it's hard to say but men do have much higher levels of adrenaline in their body so an adrenaline fueled task (like arm wrestling) would be better suited to a man and man would enjoy it more because of the increased adrenaline so generally an adrenaline fueled task will be a manly task.

 

so basically men and women are different and there is nothing wrong with catering for those differences, and i was talking about adult games anyway not toys for children so any kind of influence these games may have on an adult would be very small, so the whole "boys can play with dolls to" debate is not really relevant. 

 

@BigJKO

 

you said that, not me

 

(but women generally do like chocolate more than men, you can make that a sexist remark if you want but it is fact)

 

obviously a man designing a game specifically for women would be tough and sure it's the weakest part, but it was supposed to match the male activities, so any women with better suggestions for the "chick flick" version of the game are welcome to give them and i think some people may not like the use of "chick flick" but i don't know a better way of describing it

[BigJKO]

now for a woman game (where i will be ripped to shreds but i will try) that would be more about interpersonal relationships and women doing women things (like hugging, chocolate eating and decorating things) and talking woman shit

[Justin Leego]

I hear you about physiological differences between men and women and agree that it has an impact on brain chemistry and therefore perception and decision making.

 

I'd be interested in learning more about differences in adrenaline production and / or adrenaline sensitivity between men and women as I haven't found conclusive evidence either way.

 

For me, the role of nurture in influencing or guiding natural drives and instincts is important; toys made for adults are ones that children will want to learn about and can take developmental cues from.

[Gormongous]

Well, I have no interest in a beer-drinking, arm-wrestling games, so it looks like I'm stuck playing the chocolate-eating, hugging games.

 

Or, you know, we could just make some games where the woman saves the man and more games where nobody needs saving.

[thestalkinghead]

This is amazing. Obviously the solution to sexism is just get over it and realize that what women want is to eat chocolate in a game..

stalkinghead, you've really outdone yourself there.

you said that, and if you think i said that you are wrong

 

and look my one sentence description of some of the tasks wouldn't be the whole game, it wouldn't be the hugging and chocolate eating game for babies, they would simply be in the game as an action you can perform, the main game would be about personal relationships which could perhaps lead the player to have a girls night in watching a film eating chocolate and maybe some huggs, is that a totally sexist thing thing to expect a woman to do? because i really don't think it is

[Justin Leego]

Exclusive pre-order Man DLC: Hugs with the unmet expectation of sex

[dibs]

Gone home dlc will have hugs and chocolate, but only if you find the wacky tea party ghost (via hair brushing mini game)!

[Gormongous]

you said that, and if you think i said that you are wrong

 

and look my one sentence description of some of the tasks wouldn't be the whole game, it wouldn't be the hugging and chocolate eating game for babies, they would simply be in the game as an action you can perform, the main game would be about personal relationships which could perhaps lead the player to have a girls night in watching a film eating chocolate and maybe some huggs, is that a totally sexist thing thing to expect a woman to do? because i really don't think it is

 

Then you're wrong. It is a totally sexist thing to expect. In fact, the whole idea that, because differences between genders exist, that we should make games that pander to the most stereotyped behaviors of those genders in the culture today is an incredibly regressive notion that I'm honestly having a lot of trouble getting over. People should make games that they want to play, that show the change they want to see in the world, and be smart about it. They shouldn't kowtow to the received knowledge of demographics, like women's preference for chocolate, which has pathetically scant consensus for being a "fact."

 

Sarkeesian actually addresses the exact things you're talking about in her clip. Video games are part of the culture and therefore shape the culture. If we're going to use video games to pigeonhole the genders into these narrow, ugly confines, sexism will continue to be a huge force in the culture, which would be a shame, because people learn about and change their sexual and gender identities all the time, from childhood through old age. Otherwise, we'd have no trans people, no queers, no nothing. Everyone would be what they were raised, which is clearly not the case, so why not just make games rather than making gross "man-games" and "woman-games?"

 

Honestly, I think it would be better if you just got over yourself and learned how to identify with a female protagonist. Three and a half billion women have to do the reverse every single time they interact with just about any piece of media ever.

[brkl]

Good god. Punctuation.

[Argobot]

(but women generally do like chocolate more than men, you can make that a sexist remark if you want but it is fact)

 

obviously a man designing a game specifically for women would be tough and sure it's the weakest part, but it was supposed to match the male activities, so any women with better suggestions for the "chick flick" version of the game are welcome to give them and i think some people may not like the use of "chick flick" but i don't know a better way of describing it

 

For my sanity, I was ready to ignore this whole conversation, but I seriously cannot believe some of the stuff that's being said. Please refrain from making reductive generalizations about an entire gender that are absolutely in no way grounded in scientific fact.

[Dewar]

Well, I have no interest in a beer-drinking, arm-wrestling games, so it looks like I'm stuck playing the chocolate-eating, hugging games.

 

Or, you know, we could just make some games where the woman saves the man and more games where nobody needs saving.

 

Or how about guys saving guys and girls saving girls? I enjoyed the first Gears of War because it was essentially a couple of best-friends watching each others' backs. They kinda got away from that as the series went on, but I really dug that.

 

Are women really harder to relate to than giant burly space marines? Anyway, I'm glad you try, and hope you keep doing so.

 

Everyone is harder to relate to than giant burly space marines. They're a simple sterotype that is the easy way out for writters, since pretty much everyone is familar with them (either from movies, games, or even books.) Gaming has yet managed to make a really complicated character, but space marine is pretty much the least complicated.

[thestalkinghead]

I hear you about physiological differences between men and women and agree that it has an impact on brain chemistry and therefore perception and decision making.

 

I'd be interested in learning more about differences in adrenaline production and / or adrenaline sensitivity between men and women as I haven't found conclusive evidence either way.

 

For me, the role of nurture in influencing or guiding natural drives and instincts is important; toys made for adults are ones that children will want to learn about and can take developmental cues from.

it's is actually more the testosterone than the adrenaline that makes an effect so that should be testosterone/adrenaline really

Then you're wrong. It is a totally sexist thing to expect. In fact, the whole idea that, because differences between genders exist, that we should make games that pander to the most stereotyped behaviors of those genders in the culture today is an incredibly regressive notion that I'm honestly having a lot of trouble getting over. People should make games that they want to play, that show the change they want to see in the world, and be smart about it. They shouldn't kowtow to the received knowledge of demographics, like women's preference for chocolate, which has pathetically scant consensus for being a "fact."

 

Sarkeesian actually addresses the exact things you're talking about in her clip. Video games are part of the culture and therefore shape the culture. If we're going to use video games to pigeonhole the genders into these narrow, ugly confines, sexism will continue to be a huge force in the culture, which would be a shame, because people learn about and change their sexual and gender identities all the time, from childhood through old age. Otherwise, we'd have no trans people, no queers, no nothing. Everyone would be what they were raised, which is clearly not the case, so why not just make games rather than making gross "man-games" and "woman-games?"

 

Honestly, I think it would be better if you just got over yourself and learned how to identify with a female protagonist. Three and a half billion women have to do the reverse every single time they interact with just about any piece of media ever.

how can i talk about gender at all without some generalisations and the fact is that you can generalise without it being offensive, look up the different effects that chocolate has on men and women if you think i am just making it up, and I'm not being reductive, I'm being succinct, and I'll just say it again in a different way, differences between the sexes doesn't mean one is better than the other, they are just differences

 

you really need to get over yourself, differences in people are good and we shouldn't pretend that there aren't differences because that is just ignoring the problem altogether, there should be games specifically made for certain demographics and groups not every game has to be for everyone,.

 

seriously how am i just going to gain the knowledge of living life as a woman so i can truly identify with a women, how did you gain this knowledge of what is it actually like to be both sexes? how have these 3.5 billion women gained the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and actually identify with a male character? or is it simply that women don't have the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and truly identify with a male character and are simple making do with what they have, and actually now would like some games about women and with women as the main roles, i wasn't imagining gross woman games but you clearly are and that is your problem, if you can't imagine a game made for women that would be good, get a better imagination

[Argobot]

 how have these 3.5 billion women gained the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and actually identify with a male character? or is it simply that women don't have the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and truly identify with a male character and are simple making do with what they have, and actually now would like some games about women and with women as the main roles, i wasn't imagining gross woman games but you clearly are and that is your problem, if you can't imagine a game made for women that would be good, get a better imagination

 Yes, I wonder how women learn to identify with male characters. Hmmm.

[TychoCelchuuu]

For my sanity, I was ready to ignore this whole conversation, but I seriously cannot believe some of the stuff that's being said. Please refrain from making reductive generalizations about an entire gender that are absolutely in no way grounded in scientific fact.

I too have basically been sitting this one out because life's too short to try to convince crazy people that they're crazy, but rest assured thestalkinghead that you're pretty much wrong about everything ever.

[Zeusthecat]

it's is actually more the testosterone than the adrenaline that makes an effect so that should be testosterone/adrenaline really

how can i talk about gender at all without some generalisations and the fact is that you can generalise without it being offensive, look up the different effects that chocolate has on men and women if you think i am just making it up, and I'm not being reductive, I'm being succinct, and I'll just say it again in a different way differences between the sexes doesn't mean one is better than the other, they are just differences

 

you really need to get over yourself, differences in people are good and we shouldn't pretend that there aren't differences because that is just ignoring the problem altogether, there should be games specifically made for certain demographics and groups not every game has to be for everyone,.

 

seriously how am i just going to gain the knowledge of living life as a woman so i can truly identify with a women, how did you gain this knowledge of what is it actually like to be both sexes? how have these 3.5 billion women gained the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and actually identify with a male character? or is it simply that women don't have the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and truly identify with a male character and are simple making do with what they have, and actually now would like some games about women and with women as the main roles, i wasn't imagining gross woman games but you clearly are and that is your problem, if you can't imagine a game made for women that would be good, get a better imagination

 

You lost me completely. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue but it sounds like a straw man to me.

[Lu]

seriously how am i just going to gain the knowledge of living life as a woman so i can truly identify with a women

 

Have you tried talking to one?

[I Saw Dasein]

you really need to get over yourself, differences in people are good and we shouldn't pretend that there aren't differences because that is just ignoring the problem altogether, there should be games specifically made for certain demographics and groups not every game has to be for everyone,.

 

Just to focus on one point, I don't think anyone is saying that every single game has to be for every single player. If someone wants to make a "beer and farts" simulator to market exclusively to men, that's fine; if someone wants to make a "wine and giggles" simulator and market it to women, that's fine too. I doubt either of those games would be very lucrative, but a designer should feel free to make it. 

 

The problem is that all of the games in the middle--mainstream games with big budgets and a wide audience--implicitly assume a (white, straight) male audience. So what we end up with is that 95% of games are explicitly or implicitly made for a male audience, and 5% are explicitly made for a female audience. The 5% made for a female audience tend to rely on pretty gross stereotypes, as do many of the games marketed towards men.

 

So in effect, we already have games that are explicitly made for both genders, and that explicitly appeal to stereotypes about those genders. What I think most people and most feminists want is for those games in the middle--the 80% of mainstream games that are not explicitly targeting either gender--to be more inclusive and more representative of the actual market for video games. The fact that there already are games that explicitly target both genders does not make up for the basic unfairness in the way mass market video games treat women.