Feminism

[Roderick]

Christ.

[James]

There's a really depressing thread in the comments where someone criticises the poem for promoting a negative world view, apparently completely oblivious to how insensitive that is. Then the conversation gets wrapped up in people being short with one another and calling out as bad arguments things that were clearly never meant as arguments and it all becomes a horrible quagmire.

The poem itself was powerful stuff, though.

[Dewar]

Huge spoilers for Charles Stross's second Laundry Files novel "The Jennifer Morgue" below. If you've read it already, or have no intention of reading it, there's some interesting feminist stuff in there.

 

Synopsis:

Trying to keep the description brief, Bob Howard works for what is basically the occult arm of the British CIA (too many three letter acronyms to keep them straight in my head.) In both books he's basically sent in to deal with a threat with no information, so that he can't give away any important information to the enemy. In this particular mission, he's going against a villain who's created a geas that is forcing the plot of the book to be like a James Bond movie. At first it's pretty entertaining watching an IT nerd with no real spy experience trying to fit into the James Bond archtype, then it takes an interesting turn

 

The real spoiler, ruins the ending, do not read if you're interested by my first spoiler:

It turns out that he's not James Bond in this geas. he's the Bond babe and his GF who's coming to rescue him is filling the roll of James Bond. So she shows up, kick ass, takes out the opposition, and kills the villain. I really dug the turn around at first, but then as the story wound down to its conclusion I started to get really annoyed. The main character is basically getting played the entire book, given no information, and intentionally made powerless so that his GF can run in at the last minute and save the day. It doesn't escape me that most women watching the typical bond movie are annoyed in the same way. I'd like to think my issue with the book doesn't have as much to do with sexism as it does with the fact that the main character that we've been with for the whole book ends up being mostly incidental at the climax. I think I would have been just annoyed if the main character had been a woman and her BF saved the day at the last moment. Still, it's an interesting turn of events that, despite the awesome intent, actually soured me on the book at the end.

 

So yeah, interesting book, well worth reading, even with my complaints.

[Nachimir]

https://twitter.com/jennatar/status/362321919766315009

http://theboobjam.tumblr.com/

 

 What if you had to watch a sexy Video game character also buy bras, cry softly when she can't find one that fits, and go in for mammograms

 

The Boob Jam aims to approach the topic of boobs from any angle except as a plaything for straight cis guys. (Which isn’t to say they can’t be, but let’s investigate other meanings!)

[tegan]

The third part of Tropes Vs. Women's damsel in distress video series is up! Unfortunately I can't view the video without it immediately jumping to the middle for some reason, so I can't link it, but I'm sure you know where to find it.

[Argobot]

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LjImnqH_KwM

 

It was a pretty strong conclusion, I thought. But then again I'll support anyone who continues to hammer home the point that ironic sexism doesn't somehow magically make something not sexist.

 

[thestalkinghead]

that is the best one of the three, she at least tries to give some constructive answers to all the problems she is pointing out, but that story she invented could do with a love interest and a male character, so that kinds of just points out why there are these token characters that could be replaced with a dog, and i do think a lot her argument just comes down to "make games with female protagonists" but really that just keeps the same problems but reverses the gender, but it does ask a good question of "how can you make games for both genders that doesn't make one gender the damsel or submissive one?" 

[youmeyou]

I don't think the example she generated necessarily needs a love story or a male damsel. It's essentially the Lion King story which didn't exactly rely on damseling or a love interest to be compelling. While those elements were there (reuniting with nala and his mother and her pack being at the whim of scar) they were secondary to the central theme of the narrative which is dealing with responsibility and overcoming failure.

 

So I certainly think it's possible to write powerful narratives that don't rely on a male - female dichotomy. Look at Journey as a video game example. Depicting an androgynous character was an effective move to allow agency no matter the identity of the player.

 

Of course, not every game protagonist needs to be androgynous. My point is traditional tropes need not be the only route toward telling a good story in a game.

[James]

that is the best one of the three, she at least tries to give some constructive answers to all the problems she is pointing out, but that story she invented could do with a love interest and a male character, so that kinds of just points out why there are these token characters that could be replaced with a dog, and i do think a lot her argument just comes down to "make games with female protagonists" but really that just keeps the same problems but reverses the gender, but it does ask a good question of "how can you make games for both genders that doesn't make one gender the damsel or submissive one?" 

Firstly, the video explains why reversing the genders isn't equally problematic. The main problem isn't the pure mechanics of the damsel in distress storyline, it's how that trope fits into the wider context of attitudes regarding women, and also how often it's been repeated. Society doesn't assume that men are incapable and needy, so presenting a man as being in need of being rescued doesn't have the same implications, and the story of a man being rescued by a woman hasn't been repeated ad nauseum, so it's not culturally ingrained in the same way. Nevertheless, the storyline is less than ideal whichever way you cut it, which Sarkeesian acknowledges.

 

Secondly, I can't really see why you think the proposed story requires a throw-away love interest. You yourself acknowledge that what you're asking for could be replaced by a dog; surely it can't contribute much to the story emotionally. The story already has strong motivation, tension and resolution. It has a prison escape, the protagonist becoming a warrior, the threat of corrupt forces taking control, and a heroic return. If not, perhaps the protagonist's birthplace could be in immediate peril or something. It really doesn't have to be some interchangeable love interest. Not every effort has to be motivated by a romance, particularly if that romance is just a premise rather than something that's actually explored in the story.

[clyde]

I have learned so much about gender-politics by being interested in the culture that surrounds video-games. Check out the comments under this review. Here is my favorite. It is in response to someone mentioning that the review was written by a woman:

 

Krypt

or was it just narrated by a women? which i guarantee is the case to make it look justified. This is a great game and def worth $50! if it was multiplat it would of got a 8.5 all day, like i stated above im a xbox guy so i could careless but u have to give credit where credit is due this site is becoming a joke as well as gaming journalism as a whole …

 

Awesome. I like how one comment will claim that women and men are represented equally and then another will demonstrate otherwise. I'm not being sarcastic. I really do enjoy this. I mean, I would prefer that everyone be treated fairly and stuff, but until then, I really enjoy hyperbolic examples of how fucked up everything is. The hope is that the more extreme the demonstration of inequality, the more likely people will see it for what it is.

 

 

[thestalkinghead]

Firstly, the video explains why reversing the genders isn't equally problematic. The main problem isn't the pure mechanics of the damsel in distress storyline, it's how that trope fits into the wider context of attitudes regarding women, and also how often it's been repeated. Society doesn't assume that men are incapable and needy, so presenting a man as being in need of being rescued doesn't have the same implications, and the story of a man being rescued by a woman hasn't been repeated ad nauseum, so it's not culturally ingrained in the same way. Nevertheless, the storyline is less than ideal whichever way you cut it, which Sarkeesian acknowledges.

 

Secondly, I can't really see why you think the proposed story requires a throw-away love interest. You yourself acknowledge that what you're asking for could be replaced by a dog; surely it can't contribute much to the story emotionally. The story already has strong motivation, tension and resolution. It has a prison escape, the protagonist becoming a warrior, the threat of corrupt forces taking control, and a heroic return. If not, perhaps the protagonist's birthplace could be in immediate peril or something. It really doesn't have to be some interchangeable love interest. Not every effort has to be motivated by a romance, particularly if that romance is just a premise rather than something that's actually explored in the story.

 

well as a man i think making a dude in distress is equally as bad as making a damsel in distress, i do actually get where women who don't like these tropes are coming from, but you don't fix it by just mirroring it so all the bad parts are given to men, i don't like to see my own gender being misrepresented in a bad way (same with the opposite gender but less personal) and i imagine women feel the same way, don't try and use the "societies assumptions" or your "the privileged majority" argument, because nobody is a society or a majority, i am an individual and i don't think as a society or a majority.

 

my point about a throwaway love interest was that this is simply what most of these female characters are and just because they are a throwaway not well developed character doesn't by itself make is sexist, like an example used was hotline miami (weird to use as an example but ) just because a woman was in about 30 seconds of the game and gets saved because she was a drug addict doesn't just make the game or even the character sexist, she was just a bit part in the story, just because she doesn't get her own act and have an amazingly complicated yet strong story arc where she saves the day doesn't just make the game or her character sexist or even enforce negative gender stereotypes, these characters are just simply not that important.

 

also my point about it needing a male character was because, it did, and if he was just some pig (male stereotype) or a throwaway man character i wouldn't mind, but i would probably have an issue with it if the character was important to the story and is seriously offensive

[Gormongous]

i don't like to see my own gender being misrepresented in a bad way

i am an individual and i don't think as a society or a majority

 

You're kinda sending mixed messages here, man.

[Twig]

well as a man i think making a dude in distress is equally as bad as making a damsel in distress

I don't. I couldn't give less of a shit about a dude in distress. But I can totally see why it's a problem when it's a damsel (even if I don't think it's always a problem as long as there's more meaning behind it besides "hey here's a lady who's in trouble go save her nerd").

[thestalkinghead]

You're kinda sending mixed messages here, man.

non contextually maybe, i decide what is a bad representation of men, i can't think for a society i can only think for myself (as if that actually needed explaining)

 

and @Twig i wouldn't care enough to make a kickstarter about it, but i probably wouldn't like some whiny loser that couldn't escape from a paper bag as my main love interest because i wouldn't like him and i would probably feel like it was a bad representation of men

[Dewar]

I like helping/rescuing people, both in games and in real life. There's a certain sort of feeling of both warmth and power behind the concept of having what someone else needs and then giving of it freely. I am much more interested in the parts of games where you're rescuing one person than I ever am in the "save the world" stuff that's gotten really popular in big budget games these days. All that being said, I'd be just as happy rescuing a guy as a girl, so long as there's some real emotional attachment there and it's not just a throwaway character.

[James]

well as a man i think making a dude in distress is equally as bad as making a damsel in distress, i do actually get where women who don't like these tropes are coming from, but you don't fix it by just mirroring it so all the bad parts are given to men, i don't like to see my own gender being misrepresented in a bad way (same with the opposite gender but less personal) and i imagine women feel the same way, don't try and use the "societies assumptions" or your "the privileged majority" argument, because nobody is a society or a majority, i am an individual and i don't think as a society or a majority.

Sure, but we learn from our environment and the messages we receive, and the general narrative is that men are more capable at things like heroic rescues, and in general have more agency over a situation. This is evident in assumptions people make all the time. You might not make those assumptions, but it is nevertheless significant whether a story is in line with these assumptions or running against them, and furthermore whether this story exists alone or among many others like it. That isn't to say that the reversal is automatically OK, but it can't have the same significance as the original when the context it exists in isn't symmetrical. Presumably you're not arguing that the situation as it stands is gender-neutral.

 

my point about a throwaway love interest was that this is simply what most of these female characters are and just because they are a throwaway not well developed character doesn't by itself make is sexist, like an example used was hotline miami (weird to use as an example but ) just because a woman was in about 30 seconds of the game and gets saved because she was a drug addict doesn't just make the game or even the character sexist, she was just a bit part in the story, just because she doesn't get her own act and have an amazingly complicated yet strong story arc where she saves the day doesn't just make the game or her character sexist or even enforce negative gender stereotypes, these characters are just simply not that important.

Individually, perhaps not, but taken as an overwhelming trend this is sexist and does contribute to negative stereotypes; namely that women are passive and helpless, requiring men to rescue them, usually through displays of might. Taken as an overall phenomenon, it's harmful.

 

also my point about it needing a male character was because, it did

That's not an argument. I still wholeheartedly disagree.

[thestalkinghead]

yeah sure we learn from society and there may be some old fashioned trends still in existence (there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on) but saying society thinks a certain way really means nothing to an individual (especially when they don't believe the majority of society actually thinks that way, just a loud minority) and i just didn't think i would need to go into detail about why there should be equal gender representation in games on a thread titled "feminism" on a gaming forum, i could go into detail about that and maybe copy and past a feminist article about why there should be equal representation in video games and change a few words around, or go into detail about how personally i can always identify easier with a male character than a female one (even if i can identify certain traits and interests i share with a female character) so it is better to have at least one person i can identify with to hook me into the world more or i could just say "because it does" and let you work out why

[Twig]

Why does he have to be a love interest? Why can't he be any number of different dudes what need saving? Why does he need to be a whiny loser? Why can't he be strong, but not strong enough? Why do you assume that just because someone needs rescuing, it means they're incapable of doing anything for themselves?

[thestalkinghead]

Why does he have to be a love interest? Why can't he be any number of different dudes what need saving? Why does he need to be a whiny loser? Why can't he be strong, but not strong enough? Why do you assume that just because someone needs rescuing, it means they're incapable of doing anything for themselves?

i didn't say he needed to be the love interest or even that the love interest had to be a man in my first post, and the whiny loser would be the damsel/dude part, in the video she says it's not about the rescue but more the way the woman acts that is the damsel in distress part, so i was talking about a dude/damsel in distress role

[James]

yeah sure we learn from society and there may be some old fashioned trends still in existence (there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on) but saying society thinks a certain way really means nothing to an individual (especially when they don't believe the majority of society actually thinks that way, just a loud minority) and i just didn't think i would need to go into detail about why there should be equal gender representation in games on a thread titled "feminism" on a gaming forum...

Look, I can't account for every single individual in the human race in an argument; if you're going to demand that, there's barely social issue we can properly discuss at all. Negative and unhelpful attitudes towards women exist, sometimes in loud, obvious ways, and at other times in subtle, pervasive, insidious ways. They're the attitudes that lead little boys to aspire to being astronauts and whatever and little girls to aspire to be wives. It's not universal, but it's still very very present, and it's a problem. These messages continue through childhood, adolescence, and into adulthood, often in subtler forms that are harder to identify. Even if you're right, and most people are free from these influences (I'd posit most people make gender associations to many roles: if you imagine a doctor, do you automatically imagine a man? I do.), it's still not the same. In the standard case, it's another voice contributing the chorus; in the reversal, it's a contrary voice speaking at odds with it. I'm not arguing that it's not also harmful, but the male damsel in distress is less of a problem because it doesn't exist within masses of other similarly-themed messages; it largely stands apart. Anyway, this isn't really the meat of the argument – it's not like I'm in favour of male damsels – I just think it's very dangerous to think that you can flip anything to do with gender (or race or any other "minority" issue) without severely altering its nature. The power balance doesn't get reversed along with it. Having a feeble and helpless man in a game doesn't create a whole history of subjugation of men and all the associated remnants. People look at it and say "that's funny" because it's absurd, because it's completely at odds with what the prototypical man is.

 

...or go into detail about how personally i can always identify easier with a male character than a female one (even if i can identify certain traits and interests i share with a female character) so it is better to have at least one person i can identify with to hook me into the world more...

Perhaps it would be better to learn to identify with female characters. Isn't that part of what's great about fiction? It gives us a window into another perspective. Besides, I hardly think token characters are very relatable to anyone. It's an empty gesture. It might make you feel more comfortable to have a man present, but it's not actually giving you greater access to the story, and it would probably be good to let go of that once in a while. And me too. We could all do with being put outside our comfort zones once in a while.

...or i could just say "because it does" and let you work out why

That seems like a fairly smug way to present an argument. It's obviously not self-evident to me, else I'd agree with you, which I still don't.

And since when did your desire for something dictate what a story "needs"? Do all stories need to appeal to all people? A lot of stories in current games probably appeal a great deal less to most women than most men (although I obviously can't speak in absolutes). Is it a failing for a story to speak primarily to women? Not that I think this one does – its themes seem universally accessible to me – but even if it did, that would be a small fraction of a counterbalance to the huge weight of material that appeals primarily to men.

[Zeusthecat]

I wanted to share some thoughts and personal observations somewhat related to the conversation going on here. Specifically in regards to this statement:

 

yeah sure we learn from society and there may be some old fashioned trends still in existence (there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on)

 

I am a very optimistic person and I like to think society has made a lot of progress in how women are viewed but I have seen and heard a few things recently that have really bothered me and make me question how much of this "progress" is only at the surface level.

 

The first one came from one of my wife's friends. They were having a play date with the kids one day and she started talking about her religion and how she goes to Bible study all the time. As the conversation continued she proceeded to tell my wife that she started going to a Bible study group where the theme was "how to be a better wife". In this group they "taught" women how it is important to have dinner ready on the table every night, to never be impatient with your husband, and to make sure the house is always kept clean. Because this is a woman's job in life. The sad thing about this is how enthusiastic she was about this class and how great she thought it was while being completely oblivious to how harmful this kind of message is to a woman.

 

The second one came from a (very religious) co-worker in our DISC personality assessment workshop last Friday. We were going over an example of how different personality types would prepare a meal at home and halfway through the exercise he proclaimed "Well this doesn't necessarily apply to all of us because it is obviously geared towards women". He wasn't trying to be mean or anything, he just honestly believed that that is how the world works. Thankfully, two team members immediately remarked that what he said was very sexist (which he was shocked to hear) and the conversation moved on.

 

I like to think things like this are isolated and rare occurrences but I'm not so sure that is the case. The reason I pointed out that both of these people are religious is to illustrate why I think this is still a very real problem in society. If this is the prevalent mentality in religious circles and over 80% of people still identify as religious, then shit is still pretty fucked up. And it is especially troubling to see how many people are still completely oblivious to how wrong this type of mentality is.

 

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is very coherent so I'll just finish by saying I 100% think that it is imperative for video games and media as a whole to do a much better job of eschewing the "damsel in distress" (for lack of a better all-encompassing term) mentality. Without any substantial level of effort being made to produce works that abandon these tropes I fear that these ignorant viewpoints that lie just under the surface for so many people will remain prevalent and unrecognized.

[thestalkinghead]

@James

actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it"

 

but because we are talking about making male orientated games more female friendly i figured i would say that putting a man in an all (good guy) female cast would make the game more male friendly so i am only saying my desires should dictate what a story "needs" as much as Anita Sarkeesian is with every game she bring into the debate.

 

and although i do try and identify with female characters is just isn't the same as with a male character, i don't think being male is my defining characteristic but there are just so many details that just make it hard identify with women, and also if you are discounting that fact that gender is a thing that affects other things why are we even debating about damsels in distress, why can't women just identify with the male hero?

 

 

@Zeusthecat

 

i totally don't think we should promote old fashioned sexist beliefs and what you are talking about is wrong, but we don't need to get the sexism microscope out to find any little thing that even hints at sexism and magnify it out of proportion eg. woman in hotline miami

 

 

and ok i admit it i don't mix with loads of different people (and i live in england which is just under 50% christian) so maybe my idea of what "most" men think may not be the best gauge but internet trolls aren't a great gauge either

[James]

actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it"

 

but because we are talking about making male orientated games more female friendly i figured i would say that putting a man in an all (good guy) female cast would make the game more male friendly so i am only saying my desires should dictate what a story "needs" as much as Anita Sarkeesian is with every game she bring into the debate.

 

and although i do try and identify with female characters is just isn't the same as with a male character, i don't think being male is my defining characteristic but there are just so many details that just make it hard identify with women, and also if you are discounting that fact that gender is a thing that affects other things why are we even debating about damsels in distress, why can women just identify with the male hero?

a) That doesn't seem a very nuanced approach. Most people don't fall at the end of a binary gender distinction, and even if they did, it seems horribly insular to restrict your interests to things that are like you. Shouldn't we all strive to know and understand each other a little better?

Basically the entire history of video games caters to a (theoretical) male perspective. It's already very well represented. The (theoretical) female perspective is criminally under-represented in games. There's absolutely no risk of people of the traditional male perspective (sorry for the awkward turn of phrase, but I don't want to typecast) being excluded in aggregate, even if they are excluded from the occasional one-off experience. These are grains of sand being flung against a mountain. I hope for a future where most games aren't gender-aligned, where there's no obvious bias one way or the other, where everyone can find something familiar they can relate to and something unfamiliar they can learn from, but if there were to be a few games that appealed more to women then men, that's absolutely fine. It's a drop in the proverbial ocean.

c) Are women really harder to relate to than giant burly space marines? Anyway, I'm glad you try, and hope you keep doing so.

[I Saw Dasein]

I don't understand what a game intentionally see "just for men" or "just for women" would even look lie. Tell me what you think a game designed for a particular gender would be like.

[thestalkinghead]

well it will be hard to explain what i mean by men games and women games without using some tropes and stereotypes as examples unless i was going to write a whole essay on it, but as one example of a game for men would be an all out adrenaline fueled action game about manly men doing manly things (like arm wrestling, beer drinking and destroying things) talking manly shit (like making fun of eachother and honor) and throw in a self sacrificial father figure and you have a man game, basically dumb shit that generally only men like (maybe needs more but it's hard to come up with on the spot, but basically gears of war) 

 

now for a woman game (where i will be ripped to shreds but i will try) that would be more about interpersonal relationships and women doing women things (like hugging, chocolate eating and decorating things) and talking woman shit (like complimenting each other and love) throw in a strong, loving but argumentative mother figure and you have a women game, basically dumb shit that generally only women like (i would play that as well and i didn't initially think of it but basically the sims)

 

thats not so say you can't also make gender neutral or less gender bias games as well, but why not just be honest and say this is made for men/women but it's totally cool if both genders play it