Feminism

[Problem Machine]

Agh that's fucked, people should have some sympathy. This kind of belief, like the initial assault, is something that was done to her, that she is a victim of, along with many other people.

[James]

It's a tricky one. On the one hand, she's quite visible and therefore what she's saying has reach. But on the other, she's as much a victim of this belief as anyone else. It should be resisted, but with sensitivity to her situation.

[Apple Cider]

As another rape victim, I have sympathy for her plight. As a feminist, I really hope she has her Come to Jesus moment where she recognizes that our culture is predatory and horrible to women. This not really a tricky position nor excludes her from being criticized for her beliefs? Internalized misogyny doesn't stop being a problem if people just kinda continue to let you wallow in it.

[James]

Absolutely not – I hope my post doesn't imply that it does. I just hope that the necessary and inevitable criticism is compassionate given how she came to say such things. That shouldn't be tricky, but public opinion often manifests as a pretty blunt instrument.

Taking two examples from the article I linked to, this seems very well-considered, addressing the problems in a way that (to me, at least) involves Hynde's victimhood; it says "stop blaming yourself":

"Victims of sexual violence should never feel or be made to feel that they were responsible for the appalling crime they suffered - regardless of circumstances or factors which may have made them particularly vulnerable.

"They should not blame themselves or be blamed for failing to prevent an attack - often they will have been targeted by predatory offenders who are responsible for their actions."

Whereas this struck me as more of an attack on her as a person, which I'm less comfortable with:

"Chrissie Hynde has completely destroyed her feminist legacy in one ignorant, appalling statement"

To be clear, I totally oppose her statements and do think they need to be challenged, and hope that she has a moment of realization, as you mentioned in your post.

[Dewar]

This didn't get much play in the Random Thought about Video Games thread like I was hoping, so I'll post it here where people might be willing to have some discussion about it. It's particularly relevant now as I've just watched the Giant Bomb Ground Zeroes show and man I want to buy MGS5 so bad. My resolve on that point has definitely weakened some since I wrote this post.

 

 

After watching all of Metal Gear Scanlon, I had almost talked myself in to picking up Ground Zeroes, then The Phantom Pain in a week or two, despite the news of bad working conditions coming out of Konami, Kojima leaving, and the famous Paz scenes in Ground Zeroes. Then I watched the Giant Bomb Peace Walker stream. My wife happened to sit down about half way through and stayed until Paz and Metal Gear Zeke scene, where she is inexplicably in her underwear in a walking tank that then inexplicably decides to fill with water. My wife tactfully left at this point, but it's like the third time I've been watching Metal Gear on our big screen when something like this has happened. I'm tired of being embarrassed by what is otherwise a really cool seeming series of games. I'm so angry because I'd really like to play it, but this extraneous bullshit just isn't worth it.

 

i guess my question is where to people stand on getting the game, regardless of the troubling aspects? No game is perfect, but this one is decidedly less than perfect. I skipped GTA5 for less.

[Mangela Lansbury]

You know what Quiet looks like, right? I would probably skip it if the thought of the camera lingering on her cleavage and her ass makes you uncomfortable. It is going to happen, and it will probably happen a lot.

 

[Smart Jason]

To paraphrase Anita Sarkeesian in all of her recent videos, it's a necessity to be critical of the media that we otherwise enjoy. I don't feel like a bad feminist for being a fan of the Metal Gear games, so long as I am aware and conscientious when I play them and respectful of the responses others have to them. Tauriq Moosa wrote his very well known piece on the lack of people of color in The Witcher 3 specifically because he enjoyed the game so much for every other reason. I'd hope that you could explain to your wife that any problematic elements of the Metal Gear games make you uncomfortable as well and be able to point out to her the strengths of the series as well. These are incredibly rich, superbly made, soulful titles, and I hate it when people with good intentions put them in the same irredeemable category of other games which only trade on viscera and sex just because of what they've seen or heard about the portrayal of women.

[syntheticgerbil]

The part I didn't want my wife to see is that bizarre Date with Paz mission. The end mission where she's in her underwear(swimsuit?) is I guess explained by whatever the hell is going on with water in that cockpit. It's not a great explaination but is one of the less troubling things about Peacewalker and the Metal Gear series in general.

 

Maybe the Date with Kaz mission is even more bizarre because beating him up makes him have sex with you. Why these (I'm assuming non canon) date missions Kojima?

[feelthedarkness]

I just watched the latest FF video. Good as always, but one thing jumped out at me. I've never played the God of War games, but they're a CENTRAL example in every one of her videos, and usually the grossest version of that specific issue.

[Bjorn]

I once had a conversation with my in-laws about how Feminism was bad for women because now women have to work and don't get doors held open for them. It was a strange night.

 

The only actual advice I have for how to approach this: avoid labels entirely. Never let on that you're trying to talk about Feminism. Start with the points that you think he will be able to agree with, the ones that correspond with bible teachings that he's familiar with, or that match up with other positive beliefs that he's shared with you in the past. Don't push it too hard. If you can get your foot in the door with some things that he agrees with, then say "well, that's largely what people mean when they talk about Feminism these days."

 

This is assuming that you're trying to identify common ground and build from it. If there are things that he flat out disagrees with, you're probably not going to ever succeed. People just don't like other people changing them, and confrontation generally just makes people dig in their heels. The best you can do is to lay down the framework, so that he has all the tools he needs to take the next step himself.

 

Hope there's something helpful in there.

 

Thanks, to you and the other people who replied, hadn't had much of a chance to be on here to respond over the last few days.   Not any progress to speak of, but I do appreciate everyone's thoughts here. 

[Gormongous]

Thanks, to you and the other people who replied, hadn't had much of a chance to be on here to respond over the last few days.   Not any progress to speak of, but I do appreciate everyone's thoughts here. 

 

Actually, I didn't come here with a mind to connect this to your question, but this is something that was posted on Facebook by an acquaintance of mine and it seems like something with a different sort of angle and impact than your typical Feminism 101 spiel. Anything to post it, really: http://exgynocraticgrrl.tumblr.com/post/95118923264/deconstructing-masculinity-manhood-with-michael

[Apple Cider]

Absolutely not – I hope my post doesn't imply that it does. I just hope that the necessary and inevitable criticism is compassionate given how she came to say such things. That shouldn't be tricky, but public opinion often manifests as a pretty blunt instrument.

Taking two examples from the article I linked to, this seems very well-considered, addressing the problems in a way that (to me, at least) involves Hynde's victimhood; it says "stop blaming yourself":

Whereas this struck me as more of an attack on her as a person, which I'm less comfortable with:

To be clear, I totally oppose her statements and do think they need to be challenged, and hope that she has a moment of realization, as you mentioned in your post.

 

Oh yeah, that last one is kind of a doozy. I wasn't aware Hynde had a feminist legacy to speak of and given she's been saying these sorts of sentiments for nigh on 20 years now, I'm not sure how that legacy was established? If anything, this is why I get really edgy about people being held up as "The Feminist" versus being feminists or doing feminist work because so much of who decides who the Big Name Feminists are are often the most moderate and liberal of them out there who are prone to making consistently bad statements. Less pedestals means less falling-then-redemption narratives versus learning and growing and doing the work.

 

 

RE: MSGV

My boyfriend bought the game and has a Quiet doll in his office, much to my (mostly joking) consternation. What has made me less interested in Metal Gear is less the scantily clad Quiet but moreso that the developers are trying so hard to not say "we just want some scantily clad sniper babe" but instead invent really horrible excuses that make no sense as to why she's dressed like that. I also don't like the inclusion of really fucked up sexual assault narratives. I think you can both enjoy a problematic work by engaging it critically but also be allowed to just not want to engage with the material at all. It's up to people to make that choice.

 

I stopped watching Game of Thrones for a reason.

[Deadpan]

The most grating thing about the gross or absurd ways developers try to make that stuff thematically coherent with their game is how their audience picks it up, too. So anytime anybody criticizes that kind of sexualization, or similar things, there'll be an endless parade of randos going "Oh but it has to be that way because..." and then quoting lore as if it was actual history and not fiction that somebody wrote in order to justify dressing a character a certain way, giving them a certain role, a certain personality, etc.

 

The amount of people, especially in the games community, who are unwilling to believe that their favorite media properties are shaped by authors (rather than these univeres following their own internal logic) is bizarre.

[JonCole]

"It makes sense that certain kinds of nanomachines might require energy intake by sunlight and osmosis and thus requiring the human to expose maximum amounts of skin. That's just how nanomachines work."

[SecretAsianMan]

We actually have a thread about that entire concept (by which I mean creating a convoluted backstory to justify sexiness)

[syntheticgerbil]

I also don't like the inclusion of really fucked up sexual assault narratives. I think you can both enjoy a problematic work by engaging it critically but also be allowed to just not want to engage with the material at all. It's up to people to make that choice.

 

That stuff starting in Ground Zeroes plus Quiet kind of blindsided me in how egregious it was compared to the past (in my opinion, less harmful, but still obnoxious sexism) and I almost wanted to quit the series despite having invested way too much time playing every single game.

 

I don't know I still could if it kept going like this but it's the last Metal Gear game.

[Mawd]

"It makes sense that certain kinds of nanomachines might require energy intake by sunlight and osmosis and thus requiring the human to expose maximum amounts of skin. That's just how nanomachines work."

I don't get how people can use that excuse in a series that had Vamp run on water because nonomachines. In terms of silly MGS tropes 'nanomerscheens' is right up there with 'Metal Gheeearr' and it's been something the community has taken the piss of for some time.

Anyway the explanation just feels like the less tounge in cheek but still equally pervy reason why the women in Kill La Kill had to wear what they wore.

[syntheticgerbil]

Metal Gear needs way less Kill la Kill.

[Mawd]

Metal Gear needs way less Kill la Kill.

 

For sure. Whenever I think of replaying MGS IV the thought of how the camera ogled over the dying ptsd suffering child soldiers tends to give me serious pause. With the dumb justification context it's even more horrible and uncomfortable.

[syntheticgerbil]

Do you mean the B&B Corps? I did not feel comfortable hearing about their sordid pasts and then getting L1 prompts to have a second FPV camera sometimes for the sake of looking at their butts.

[Mawd]

Do you mean the B&B Corps? I did not feel comfortable hearing about their sordid pasts and then getting L1 prompts to have a second FPV camera sometimes for the sake of looking at their butts.

Yeah them. I enjoyed the Laughing Octopus boss fight but holy crap did I hate the reward cutscene. I'm sure the others were just as bad but that's the one that always sticks out for me.

[miffy495]

I was very seriously considering giving MGSV a pass due to the afforementioned issues despite loving all of the previous entries in the series (though even at the time as a "didn't think about this stuff at all" 20 year old, I thought the B&B stuff was kinda icky). Then I got an email from Amazon today telling me that a copy of the PS4 version that I apparently pre-ordered about a year and a half ago and had completely forgotten about had shipped. Welp. I guess I bought MGSV.

[syntheticgerbil]

I haven't heard any word on what gross stuff there is in Phantom Pain at least concerning violent storylines towards women. Is there anything else going on besides how Quiet looks?

I want to think it's just doing missions with puppies.

[Cordeos]

I haven't heard any word on what gross stuff there is in Phantom Pain at least concerning violent storylines towards women. Is there anything else going on besides how Quiet looks?

I want to think it's just doing missions with puppies.

 

Well there is the ability to spy on Quiet in her cell, with her top untied. There is a part of me that wonders why all this teasing, just make her topless, the game is already rated M.

video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9orL_Q2J4qM

[Zeusthecat]

The only MGS game I played was MGS 4 and it was a pretty good game as far as gameplay is concerned. That being said, I don't get what the big fuss is over Kojima's legacy and he just comes across as a gross pervert to me. It's really hard to respect a person's work when they put such a big emphasis on boobies, even when it clashes really hard with everything else that is going on. I mean, boobies are fine and all but Jesus, the last thing I need when everything is going to shit in a game and there's all these life or death scenarios is for a half naked woman to come into the scene just to sexy everything up. It's so childish.