Feminism

[Patrick R]

 What does it mean for Kojima to "artistically" decide to put unnecessary bikini clad characters in his games? 

 

 

I don't get the difference.  The reason it is in the game has no impact on how it supports the culture of misogyny.

 

 

I agree. There's a slightly better narrative to sexist garbage getting put in a game because a single identifiable human wants it in there, as opposed to a group of executives deciding that their target audience wants it in there, but the actual upshot is indistinguishable to me.

 

I must just be in the minority then, and since (to be absolutely clear) I'm not trying to defend Kojima's sexist choices (especially in more recent games, which I haven't actually played) I'm not going to continue trying to convince anyone of my position that MGS'  sexism is less gross than GoW's.

[Claire Hosking]

I think motive counts a little. Manslaughter is less grievous than murder, which is less grievous than premeditated murder etc. They're all really wrong, but to slightly different degrees. It's kinda nicer to think Kojima is motivated more by ignorance than greed or malice.

[Problem Machine]

I think also in terms of systemic effect there does tend to be a bit of difference in the way it's received. Like, sexism presented as one dude's weird exploitation aesthetic is I think less seductively normalizing than when it's presented as just how you make a video game targeted at adults. I don't know if there's any actual data comparing the effects of those approaches, but it seems intuitive to me that that would be the case anyway.

[osmosisch]

I can't imagine that anyone would say that Cash's lyric contributes to a culture of violence and murder

I'll say it. Contribution doesn't have to be big.

[Deadpan]

Perhaps seductive is the wrong word. I agree that executives pushing dominant aesthetics because they're simply seen as normal has perhaps the bigger effect overall, but people tend to be more openly ensorcelled (and less critical) with big name auteurs. Supposedly artistic or personal choices get a lot more free passes than commercial ones.

 

Also, that focus on individual creators tends to bring in the tried and true defense of claiming good intentions, even though intent is irrelevant to the criticisms being made.

[Ninety-Three]

If you want to argue about the cultural impact of other shit like violence or whatever, be my guest, but don't come into this thread and argue about how you don't think rape jokes and related content don't have a cultural impact. Just don't. I'm asking you now. I don't want your pedantry on this subject in particular. 

 

I'm sorry that we disagree? I'm not being pedantic, I was expressing my dissenting opinion on the topic, I wasn't aware that was forbidden.

[Problem Machine]

I think we can take it as given that jokes, music, etc all contribute to the prevailing cultural outlook on sex, violence, etc, whatever it may be -- since they are that culture, in a sense. The question is then primarily a matter of a) what kind of content maps to what kinds of attitudes, and how strong that influence is.

 

Another extreme example is sitting Supreme Court justices citing the fictional television show 24 in order to justify 'enhanced interrogation' protocols: Would they have found another reason to do so if 24 had never been aired? Perhaps. It's a chicken and egg problem though: 24 is a symptom of a culture that believes in the efficacy of violence, and 24 also reinforces that culture by parroting that narrative. The Beastie Boys song is both product of and component of a culture that devalues women. That doesn't make either of these creations inherently without worth, or even less worthy, but it does mean their overall feedback into the system maintains problematic aspects of that system.

 

And, yeah, in some cases you're going to get someone who twists something innocuous into the focus for their violence. You get outliers in every field. That's not a good reason to let other work, which feeds back into the system in a very direct way, off the hook. Just because flukes sometimes happen doesn't mean that everything is a fluke or that trying to analyze causality is a fool's errand..

[Cordeos]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-09-04-metal-gear-solid-5-quiet-kojima-ashamed

Fantastic article about what is wrong with Quiet and scantily clad women video game women in general.

"So, as per Kojima's original statement, should we be ashamed of our words and deeds regarding the knee-jerk reaction to Quiet's unveiling - and the Quiet action figure with the squeezable Tits that followed? Well, no, and I've seen nothing to suggest that we should. I can't see how Quiet's nakedness serves any other purpose than to provide wank fodder, and I don't see how she's an 'antithesis' to other women in gaming who have been excessively exposed. And that's fine; if you want to lust after big wobbling digital Tits, you go forth and be the best you you can be. But let's not pretend it's anything grander than that."

[syntheticgerbil]

That was a good article that I would hope would help some understand. I think people who defend Quiet still won't understand why it's exactly in contrast with previous characters who they always cite. The End wasn't naked, used photosynthesis to regen health.

 

Eva is most commonly said to be the same character somehow, but she's a femme fatale there to seduce Big Boss who blatantly gets her tits out on purpose the second they meet. At least with Eva she'll cover up (or undress more) depending on what's going on. And then as the article states that Big Boss himself is never shown to ogle Quiet, part of his characterisation with Eva is to ignore her advances, not look, and concentrate on his mission.

[Markson]

Ninety-Three:

That article had the opposite of its intended effect on me. What it reminded me of was the fact that Charles Manson claimed to have taken inspiration from Beatles songs. Obviously (even moreso than with the Beastie Boys case) nothing in Helter Skelter incited murder. At some point you have to acknowledge that wrongheaded people will do unreasonable things with a message and that anything could set someone off.

 

That point is actually addressed in the article:

 

The guy who laughs and chants rape jokes before every party is going to rape somebody. Maybe in the precise way his favorite rape joke envisioned. Maybe there’s something wrong with him — hell, there’s clearly something wrong with him — but this isn’t Charles Manson deciding that a song about a fucking park slide is predicting the End Times. This is a kid hearing grown men laugh about rape, and deciding rape is funny. One is a bizarre delusion. One is a logical outcome.

 

I had a lot of thoughts written out, too, but I prefer to be a learner/listener in discussions like this. So I'll just point out the above. Maybe you already read it, in which case: my bad, I read your post wrong and assumed you hadn't gotten that far into the article.

[Apple Cider]

I'm sorry that we disagree? I'm not being pedantic, I was expressing my dissenting opinion on the topic, I wasn't aware that was forbidden.

 

You're a consistently pedantic, intellectually obtuse person with a track record so far of doing this on any even vaguely contentious social topic to the point where I think it's intentional. This is not the thread nor the topic to do this with, it's too personal and has affected more than just me. This is not an intellectual exercise for me, this is something brutally upsetting that I've had to experience. If you want to argue about this with other people who aren't fucking dealing with the aftermath of cultural effects of shit like this, be my guest but take it elsewhere. 

 

I'd really like one thread where I don't have to debate shit about rape. 

[SecretAsianMan]

As someone who's played several God of War games but not many MGS games, here's my take on it: In GoW, the sex is very obvious.  It's literally a mini-game (that you don't even see happening) which is completely optional and lasts for about 5 seconds.  There are also other boobs and stuff but they're almost all presented as "here's a mythological creature that has her tits out hehehe".  That's puerile sure, but it's at least straightforward.  In MGS, there's such an obvious attempt to justify boobs that it puts me off.  If you want to have scantily clad women because you like it, then fine.  But don't try to spoon feed me some contrived reason for why that is or attempt to cover up the fact that you're trying to titillate your audience.

 

In other words I agree with that Eurogamer article.

[Deadpan]

I was at a game related open mic thing during some recent event, and a guy there talked about how his favorite thing about the GoW sex minigame is that you can not press anything and make Kratos "fail at sex" and disrupt the game's hypermasculine bullshit a little bit.

[Cordeos]

I was at a game related open mic thing during some recent event, and a guy there talked about how his favorite thing about the GoW sex minigame is that you can not press anything and make Kratos "fail at sex" and disrupt the game's hypermasculine bullshit a little bit.

 

One of my friends was playing GoW while his dad was watching, he kept failing that minigame and his dad was making fun of him.

[Zeusthecat]

You're a consistently pedantic, intellectually obtuse person with a track record so far of doing this on any even vaguely contentious social topic to the point where I think it's intentional. This is not the thread nor the topic to do this with, it's too personal and has affected more than just me. This is not an intellectual exercise for me, this is something brutally upsetting that I've had to experience. If you want to argue about this with other people who aren't fucking dealing with the aftermath of cultural effects of shit like this, be my guest but take it elsewhere.

I'd really like one thread where I don't have to debate shit about rape.

Completely agreed.

Ninety-three, I do appreciate your perspective on certain things but I don't think this is the place or the topic for you to start aggressively asserting your dissenting opinion on rape culture. And I find your constant insistence to not agree with anything unless you can draw a direct causality line between two things to be naive and immature. It's a complex world with countless things have countless effects on countless other things. Just because a thing doesn't have a direct effect on another thing, doesn't mean that it doesn't contribute in other indirect ways.

[itsamoose]

I haven't played a Metal Gear solid game for a while, for those of you that have, do you get the sense that Kojima is trying to make some kind of a point with Quiet's character?  I'm not trying to give him a pass here, I'm just wondering if there is some cultural element to her portrayal that I'm not aware of or some grander point that isn't immediately visible.  The Eurogamer article seemed to think that wasn't the case, and given that I learned about a weird boob wobbling mechanic in MGS4 with the latest Tropes vs Women video I would be inclined to agree.

[Dewar]

20 hours in, they haven't made any point about it at all. I've heard that, later in the game, putting clothes on her is used as a torture method, so that sounds fun.

[syntheticgerbil]

 The Eurogamer article seemed to think that wasn't the case, and given that I learned about a weird boob wobbling mechanic in MGS4 with the latest Tropes vs Women video I would be inclined to agree.

That awkward moment when you are skipping dialogue and you realize that boog jiggle is not only attached to the sixaxis but the animation itself, so fast forwarding creates all kinds of bizarre polygonal boob flying.

 

And then your wife is there laughing.

[Deadpan]

Weirdly, I think it would actually have been more dignified if they had made that character flat out naked. That's the logical conclusion of their justification about having to have skin exposed to sunlight, isn't it? (I have no idea what's going on in MGS though, so maybe not) It'd also would have communicated much more clearly that the character is (supposedly) dressed like that.for a narrative reason. The outfit they gave her is the kind of stuff other games include with a straight face, and we'll never know for sure that the weird justification it's been given in this one wasn't simply scribbled in after Kojima made one too many creepy tweets about attractive cosplayers.

[clyde]

I had never considered that lingerie-style character designs might intentionally be created to have an influence on cosplayers.

[Ninety-Three]

 

I'm dropping the rape topic as requested, making the responses below because they're more about the discussion itself than the topic.

 

You're a consistently pedantic, intellectually obtuse person with a track record so far of doing this on any even vaguely contentious social topic to the point where I think it's intentional.

 

I am certainly pedantic, but that doesn't mean everything I do is. I fail to see how responding to an article by disagreeing with its conclusion is pedantic. As for the suggestion that I'm only disagreeing to play devil's advocate, I'm not sure how to respond beyond "No". There are many contentious social topics I have agreed with, I post mainly disagreements because when I agree with the majority opinion, I rarely feel that I have anything to add to the discussion.

 

Ninety-three, I do appreciate your perspective on certain things but I don't think this is the place or the topic for you to start aggressively asserting your dissenting opinion on rape culture.

 

Aggressively? It seems to me to be a perfectly civil "I disagree, here's why". What about my post was aggressive, and how can I state such disagreements less aggressively?

[Merus]

I am certainly pedantic, but that doesn't mean everything I do is. 

 

I want to make sure this line's preserved for when Ninety-Three realises he has the self-awareness of a cat hissing at a mirror and deletes the post

[Deadpan]

The reason it comes across as agressive (to me as well) is that the purpose of this thread is to discuss feminist topics, like how people feel about Quiet and other game characters, or issues affecting women in game development, or content warnings and their uses, not to debate the merits of feminism on the whole. So this isn't really the place to dispute a well-established point of feminist thought (and media sciences). If to you it doesn't seem to make sense, you can try asking questions or to be pointed to more writing on the subject, but "actually I think this is wrong" isn't really a helpful contribution, because nobody is here to convince you.

 

There's a bigger issue this is connected to in the topic of proof and who is expected to provide it. People asking for conclusive evidence before they address certain issues is often a way to make sure things stay exactly the same because it's often almost impossible to provide hard evidence for something that has so many facets, is created by so many hands and is as ubiquitious in our lives as socialization or media effects. Especially since people are generally willing to disregard personal experience as valid data, even if it's corroborated by many, many other people who have experienced the same thing.

[osmosisch]

Ninety-Three, on 04 Sept 2015 - 04:06, said:

If some psychopath shoots a man in Reno just to watch him die, while it may be technically true that Johnny Cash's lyrics inspired that, I can't see any sort of reasonable argument that the lyrics were harmful. I can't imagine that anyone would say that Cash's lyric contributes to a culture of violence and murder, so it seems silly to say that the Beastie Boys lyric contributes to rape culture. Folsom Prison Blues isn't wrong, and neither is Paul Revere.

I've marked all the things that I find to be aggressive and dismissive of others' points of view.

[Twig]

I had a long post written about why this particular topic is particularly sensitive and you're being particularly obtuse, but then I realized that would've led to a whole conversation that it seems like no one here wants to go down.

 

So I'll just say that while in general I appreciate your fact-checking, whenever you disagree with someone on a subjective matter, you do have that condescending "well why don't you realize this thing I've realized" attitude, and, yeah, that's aggressive.