Feminism

[JonCole]

After airing my grievances last page I felt a little better and then this entire page so far has just renewed my frustration with an entirely new level of intensity. It honestly just makes me want to leave the internet behind. It's probably healthier for me to do so anyway.

I am all for not saying something because some people find it offensive. I regularly trim my daily vocabulary, so it's not a big deal for me to do it again. But the phrase "kill all men" having racist connotations? I just don't buy it at all. I won't say it anymore because I respect that people are bothered by it (and in fact I haven't said it since like the first the times I said it because it stopped being amusing, and was never really outright funny), but I don't buy into this argument. It is literally all-inclusive. Literally literally!

I'll just go be a hermit in the woods.

 

Is anyone saying that "kill all men" has racist connotations? I know that I'm not, but maybe I've just misread everyone else. I'm just saying that it's reasonable for a person of color to take offense to this, because people in their everyday lives are being actually killed and joking that killing all anything is insensitive to people for whom the murder of their friends and family is a daily concern.

[Zeusthecat]

I think that saying "this is just a joke, don't take it seriously" to people for whom this is reasonably a real-life concern is picking apart their sensitivity. My read on that is that you're saying that they're being overly sensitive and if they were instead reasonable, they could detect that this is a joke and that they shouldn't worry about it. "This is just a joke" is inherently devaluing any serious reaction to something because we're all joking and you just can't take a joke.

 

I think the bolded part is probably where our disagreement is.

 

What if we consider other generalized things we say about men within feminism and apply the same logic we are applying to "kill all men"? If I were to say something like "men are overwhelmingly responsible for all of the shitty things in this world", would it be reasonable for someone to take offense on similar grounds? I understand this stuff is tricky to navigate but it seems like if we say that it is reasonable for a person of color to take offense to "kill all men" then it would be equally reasonable for them to take offense to any negative generalization about men that other segments of society might make specifically about black men. 

[Twig]

Okay fine sorry I used the wrong words. I don't buy that it's callous or ignorant.

At least, not any more so than anything other joke about murder, which, too me, again, had nothing to do with race, so much as humanity as a whole. Murder is inherently a shitty thing, but... It's shitty for everyone.

[Argobot]

It's a bit of a bummer that the staunchest defenders of an overplayed feminist meme are white men who all admit that the meme isn't even that funny. We agree it's not funny and we agree it's not an effective political act. What else is left?

[Twig]

I think the bolded part is probably where our disagreement is.

What if we consider other generalized things we say about men within feminism and apply the same logic we are applying to "kill all men"? If I were to say something like "men are overwhelmingly responsible for all of the shitty things in this world", would it be reasonable for someone to take offense on similar grounds? I understand this stuff is tricky to navigate but it seems like if we say that it is reasonable for a person of color to take offense to "kill all men" then it would be equally reasonable for them to take offense to any negative generalization about men that other segments of society might make specifically about black men.

This is something I agree with, too.

And to be clear, I'm not saying people have no right to be offended - is a purely emotional response and it is not my or anyone else's place to tell someone they have no right to feel their emotions. and, as I've said, I will do my best to stop offending people at every turn. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone. But that doesn't mean I don't find it... Umm the word I'm looking for is, I think, something like "off-target." Something like that.

[Twig]

It's a bit of a bummer that the staunchest defenders of an overplayed feminist meme are white men who all admit that the meme isn't even that funny. We agree it's not funny and we agree it's not an effective political act. What else is left?

It is not this specific joke that I'm bothered by. It is the general trend of removing more and more and more and more terms and phrases from everyday lexicon based on what I believe is misguided, reaching basis.

Also, I don't know, sometimes I find that talking about these things helps me understand them, so I want to talk about them because I want to be convinced. That's what conversation is for, right?

[JonCole]

A murder joke doesn't offend me because the idea of even a single man in my life being murdered seems silly and joke-worthy. The other day, I was getting my haircut and my African American hairdresser told me that her brother had just been shot on his front lawn in a gang shooting. This really happened, I'm not making anything up. Now, knowing that, I would probably be less likely to make a murder joke because for that person, murder is a reality in their lives. Statistically, this probably won't be the last person in her life that will be killed or injured in a violent altercation of some sort so me joking about killing all men would probably not be all that sensitive.

 

I'm just trying to apply this to a greater life philosophy of being sensitive. If a certain class of people is more likely to be shot than me or my family ever is, maybe murder jokes are actually way shittier for them. It's not just "murder jokes are shitty, for everyone!" it's "murder jokes have a specific meaning for people with this context". When I read a news story about Mike Brown getting shot by a police officer, I get a little concerned but really, am I going to be stopped in a random traffic stop by a cop? Will I get my car searched for drugs because my skin color is white? There's a really low chance of that. I have to imagine for some people who do get stopped on the street by police officers, who do get questioned about what they're doing when they're just taking a walk, their daily life and how they view jokes is entirely different than mine.

 

So personally, I'm going to read a story about how "kill all men" is offensive from the perspective of a single PoC and I'm going to remove it phrases that I'll ever joke about (not that I even ever would, as Argobot suggests and because it is a joke often wielded by white feminist ladies). Because I can easily make a dick joke or something instead of treading on a topic that can really hurt someone.

[Zeusthecat]

It's a bit of a bummer that the staunchest defenders of an overplayed feminist meme are white men who all admit that the meme isn't even that funny. We agree it's not funny and we agree it's not an effective political act. What else is left?

 

I legitimately don't know how to react to a statement like this. I mean, you're right, its a bummer that this is the case. I guess I'll just politely bow out of this discussion.

[Argobot]

I legitimately don't know how to react to a statement like this. I mean, you're right, its a bummer that this is the case. I guess I'll just politely bow out of this discussion.

 

I'm sorry. I regret that statement and do not want to force people out of this conversation because they don't know how to respond to what I said.That was a lame move and I shouldn't have used it.

 

These discussions are hard, especially since so many of us are receiving second-hand information and making assumptions about who is or is not offended. It reminds me of when Cuphead was announced at E3 and an article came out stating that because the game promotes racism because it uses animation styles from an era when a lot of cartoons used racist imagery. I didn't buy that argument and had I got into a discussion with someone who did believe that argument, I would have been supremely annoyed if they had deployed the same nothing statement that I just used. So again, sorry. I don't want to shut down this discussion! 

[Gormongous]

It is not this specific joke that I'm bothered by. It is the general trend of removing more and more and more and more terms and phrases from everyday lexicon based on what I believe is misguided, reaching basis.

Also, I don't know, sometimes I find that talking about these things helps me understand them, so I want to talk about them because I want to be convinced. That's what conversation is for, right?

 

The thing is, there's literally no limit to the number of expressions in the English language, even if it stopped evolving tomorrow. We're not going to run out of stuff to say, so if someone says that something offends them, I generally cop to it. I have literally no words that I like saying so much that it's worth hurting someone's feelings to keep saying them, even if they're reaching or whatever. Like Argobot, I thought that "Kill all men" was funny several years ago, but it didn't have any legs at all, and now that someone's pointed out that the mock frustration of white feminists with all men has a slight resonance with the historical frustration of white racists with black men when framed in terms of murder, I'm not particularly sad to see it go.

[clyde]

I think I get it now. I'm pretty much repeating what has already been said but... the idea is that white women have the priviledge of thinking it is absurd enough that the men around them will be killed that they can make a joke about it comfortably, while this is not the case for many non-white women.

That makes sense to me. It didn't make sense to me when I read the original article.

[Zeusthecat]

No worries Argobot. I think you have every right to be frustrated and it truly is unfortunate that this community doesn't have more female voices. Either way, there probably isn't much point in dragging this discussion out any further as I think we've all put our thoughts out there. 

[Problem Machine]

I think the concern re: Cuphead wasn't so much that it promotes racism so much that it carelessly invokes imagery with a racist history, disregarding the context behind it. But, uh, that's neither here nor there.

 

So one big difference between 'kill all men' and the other phrases people are comparing it to is that it's an incitement to action, even if an ironic one. Saying "I hate men" is merely a statement of opinion: Even if that opinion hurts some feelings, it doesn't really threaten anyone in the way that saying "kill all men" does. In fact, it's hard to think of any analogous phrase that would fly here: "Torture all men"? "Castrate all men"? "Enslave all men"? None of these jokes are really funny, and all of them tend to tread real close to invoking actual historical atrocity.

[Twig]

The thing is, there's literally no limit to the number of expressions in the English language, even if it stopped evolving tomorrow. We're not going to run out of stuff to say, so if someone says that something offends them, I generally cop to it. I have literally no words that I like saying so much that it's worth hurting someone's feelings to keep saying them, even if they're reaching or whatever. Like Argobot, I thought that "Kill all men" was funny several years ago, but it didn't have any legs at all, and now that someone's pointed out that the mock frustration of white feminists with all men has a slight resonance with the historical frustration of white racists with black men when framed in terms of murder, I'm not particularly sad to see it go.

Yeah and as I've said multiple times I've no problem just not saying it. But I still remain unconvinced! I want to be convinced, because I don't particularly enjoy disagreeing with people I respect on something this apparently obvious to everyone else - otherwise I wouldn't even bother talking about it like this - but it's just not happening. ):

[Bjorn]

I think that saying "this is just a joke, don't take it seriously" to people for whom this is reasonably a real-life concern is picking apart their sensitivity. My read on that is that you're saying that they're being overly sensitive and if they were instead reasonable, they could detect that this is a joke and that they shouldn't worry about it. "This is just a joke" is inherently devaluing any serious reaction to something because we're all joking and you just can't take a joke.

 

See, and this feels like putting words in my mouth I didn't say, or taking what I've said in the least charitable light.  I've actually literally said the opposite, that people's concerns should be listened to and considered, but not be an automatic veto.  The middle ground is that humor some people have issues with can continue to exist while we simultaneously listen to their concerns.

 

Also, I don't know, sometimes I find that talking about these things helps me understand them, so I want to talk about them because I want to be convinced. That's what conversation is for, right?

 

This, many times over.

 

 

My problem with The Toast (and by extension "kill all men") is really well summarized in the second part of this post: http://fredrikdeboer.com/2015/05/13/maybe-time-for-change/

 

His criticisms of the Toast don't make any sense to me.  I've read several pieces of his in the past that I've loved, but the Toast and the Ortberg he's talking about aren't ones that I recognize.  The comments on the piece aren't "going wild" for it (though I know what he's talking about from other Toast pieces, but that specific comment section isn't doing it, which kind of breaks his point).  Much like his imagined "comments gone wild" section, the male tears response is also imaginary. The only person who references male tears is him.  People, men and women, are discussing books they do and don't like on the list.  This might be because of my own personal social bubble, and that I rarely interact with Toast fans online.  The fans I know are all people I know in person.  And not one of them would shy away from criticizing the Toast for sometimes throwing up some low effort or sub-par content.  But hey, you can't hit a home run every time. 

 

I think someone could write a really smart piece that's critical of the Toast, but that's not it.  It honestly feels like he's trying to crowbar the Toast into some other larger points he wanted to make. 

 

Oh hey, so I just noticed there's an entire back and forth between DeBoer and another person about the Toast section of that.  I will have to read that later, as I really got to get back to work, but reading the opening section, I think this paragraph kind of gets into my reactions on this topic:

 

DeBoer has argued on several occasions that this sort of fear has created a toxic environment within the left. I, who am politically to the right of deBoer, but still identify as a progressive, agree. Leftist discourse has been sectioned off and starved, and, as a result, the factions have turned on one another. And yet, within the paragraphs excerpted above, I see a similar method of attack, a similar desire to silence and a similar refusal to engage with what’s real.

 

While back we had a long discussion on here about the call out culture, and what a destructive, energy and time wasting monster it could be when run amok.  I see shadows of that in things like this discussion, where something that problem doesn't really need all that much attention ends up being entirely too divisive (like killallmen, and my own continuation of this discussion, but I am finding it to be an interesting discussion and I've learned some thing). 

[SecretAsianMan]

Can I completely derail this conversation with something else?

 

I normally hate hashtag movements and the mostly stupid selfies that follow them, but I'm digging #ILookLikeAnEngineer because as a male engineer it's really nice to see more women appearing in this heavily male dominated field.

[JonCole]

See, and this feels like putting words in my mouth I didn't say, or taking what I've said in the least charitable light.  I've actually literally said the opposite, that people's concerns should be listened to and considered, but not be an automatic veto.  The middle ground is that humor some people have issues with can continue to exist while we simultaneously listen to their concerns.

 

Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, I was essentially conflating what you were saying with what I felt the general sentiment was and that was wrong. However, I still really do think that what you've just said, that their concerns should be listened to and considered, conflicts a bit with stating something like "Not like the most refined or nuanced, but just something said for a laugh" as it pertains to the joke. I don't see why intent has much to do with someone taking offense and I feel like continually pedaling back to the fact that this is intended to be humor implies that taking it seriously is not really called for. This is entirely my reading of the situation, you may feel differently but the way you're posing your argument creates some discordance between those feelings and what is being said.

[Bjorn]

Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, I was essentially conflating what you were saying with what I felt the general sentiment was and that was wrong. However, I still really do think that what you've just said, that their concerns should be listened to and considered, conflicts a bit with stating something like "Not like the most refined or nuanced, but just something said for a laugh" as it pertains to the joke. I don't see why intent has much to do with someone taking offense and I feel like continually pedaling back to the fact that this is intended to be humor implies that taking it seriously is not really called for. This is entirely my reading of the situation, you may feel differently but the way you're posing your argument creates some discordance between those feelings and what is being said.

 

We're also both dealing with the imperfections of interacting in first draft comments on a forum, which inevitably seem to lead to some amount of poor communication, I would probably state my case/feelings a lot more clearly if I worked them over for a couple of days in a txt doc instead of just typing out loud. 

 

 

 

And....I didn't go back to work.  I have continued reading that piece between Kang and deBoer.  This (from deBoer) really struck a nerve for me.

 

Where I will not relent, however, is in saying that controversies like #CancelColbert damage the coalition of the broad left-wing. Not #CancelColbert by itself, but rather the endless churn of controversies, Twitter storms, conflicts, and fights which leave people exhausted and disengaged. It’s not unreasonable for people witnessing such things to conclude that the left will never stop harming itself sufficiently to do the work of changing the world.

 

I've been finding online activism and leftist/progressive spaces to be harder and harder to engage with for awhile. 

[BobbyBesar]

A murder joke doesn't offend me because the idea of even a single man in my life being murdered seems silly and joke-worthy. The other day, I was getting my haircut and my African American hairdresser told me that her brother had just been shot on his front lawn in a gang shooting. This really happened, I'm not making anything up. Now, knowing that, I would probably be less likely to make a murder joke because for that person, murder is a reality in their lives. Statistically, this probably won't be the last person in her life that will be killed or injured in a violent altercation of some sort so me joking about killing all men would probably not be all that sensitive.

 

This isn't directed at you directly, but as a thought experiment, it's interesting to try swapping it with "All men should be put in prison." This may be somewhat more relatable to the stereotypical middle-class white person, but i think it's also easier to see how it would be similarly disproportionately offensive to people of color, given the incarceration rates for many minority groups.

[Gormongous]

This isn't directed at you directly, but as a thought experiment, it's interesting to try swapping it with "All men should be put in prison." This may be somewhat more relatable to the stereotypical middle-class white person, but i think it's also easier to see how it would be similarly disproportionately offensive to people of color, given the incarceration rates for many minority groups.

 

Along with clyde's statement, that really helped me with what's truly troublesome about the "Kill all men" meme: its humor depends entirely on the assumption that we're talking about straight white men, which of course we are, because straight white men are the default human. If you lend it any more specificity, it becomes at best unfunny and at worse really offensive. It really is useless.

[Bjorn]

Along with clyde's statement, that really helped me with what's truly troublesome about the "Kill all men" meme: its humor depends entirely on the assumption that we're talking about straight white men, which of course we are, because straight white men are the default human. If you lend it any more specificity, it becomes at best unfunny and at worse really offensive. It really is useless.

 

Huh, okay, that combined with other people's arguments and discussions just swayed my impression of the phrase a bunch. 

[itsamoose]

I just came across this, seems relevant with the current thrust of the discussion.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/thats-not-funny/399335/

[jennegatron]

I just came across this, seems relevant with the current thrust of the discussion.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/thats-not-funny/399335/

 

This is another piece in a long string of pieces of "liberal college students are SJW who refuse to engage with opinions they don't agree with." I think this piece is far more favorable than most as it, I think, correctly addresses that college communities are trying to make spaces that are more welcoming to more people. It also has that "look down their nose" attitude about midwestern/plains states that always rubs me the wrong way. As soon as you use the phrase "flyover states" I instantly respect you less, as you clearly don't respect where I am from.

 

I went to a tiny liberal arts school in St. Paul aka the other twin city with Minneapolis, and the student activities committee definitely made efforts to book non-offensive performers. They would book a hypnotist for freshman orientation for example. I'm sure my classmates went to that conference, and I'm also pretty sure the students from the Iowa school were from Grinnell (aka one of the most academically rigorous schools in the country)

There are all these stories that refer, without detail to other stories about students ruining the lives of professors for them doing some misunderstood joke or something, but I've never actually heard of that happening???

 

Like is this something that's actually happening or just what grown ass adults are wringing their hands over because wouldn't it be terrible if I got fired for sleeping with an undergrad student?

[Problem Machine]

This article unironically uses the terms opinionated in a way that is different from me and Social Justice Warrior. It makes it kind of hard to take seriously.

IS this an actual problem?

[Bjorn]

Living around a college town, and having a college aged student, I do think the coddling of college kids is worse now than 20 years ago when I started school.  The difference between the dorm rooms the lady and I lived in versus the fucking suites they have now is staggering (at the same school, mind you).  That said, I think there is a whole bunch of hand wringing that goes on, and I thought that Seinfeld came off like a sheltered jackass in his earlier thing about this topic.  Kids aren't nearly as fragile or sensitive as some adults make them out to be.

 

I would say the order of things I hear my academic friends complain about is state level politicians, administration, parents and then their actual students.  And these are the people working with students every day.