Twin Peaks Rewatch 51: The Return, Part 16

[marblize]

4 hours ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

I didn't have a specific picture of what evil Cooper could do, but rape as the go to is just something normalised by TV as a tropey way to show how horrible a villain is with little thought to their victims. Twin Peaks has been good about this in the past, and hopefully the finale will fare better than the rest of the season has thus far. It's not the worst, but it certainly has left something to be desired when compared to Fire Walk With Me.

 

In my opinion nothing about this season's handling of rape has resembled "villain is bad" shorthand. It's one of the more in-depth depictions of long term trauma and psychological damage I've seen in recent memory, along with Big Little Lies. Maybe it's a bummer that it involved three beloved characters and maybe this isn't what you want twin peaks to be, but likening it to a cheap SVU narrative stab when that's not at all how it's functioning is absurd to me.

[thenexus6]

 

#fordougie

 

[Mr. Jackpots]

<p>Hey @ALL ):- ... damn I already screwed this up. I don´t have words to explain how much I loved this episode. Probably the most enjoyable hour of Television since Breaking Bad´s "Ozymandias". At least from my perspective. I would like to comment on some of yout thoughts.</p>

On 28.8.2017 at 3:37 AM, Ford said:

That episode made me feel good in so many places!!!

 

Yeah, me too. Very much. By talking about "places": Bad Coop is also looking for a place. And from the informations we gathered throughout the series this place will somehow be connected to this evil symbol on his playing card. The question is why this is so important for him. 

 

On 28.8.2017 at 3:17 AM, Emily said:

I wonder if the last two episodes will go as quickly as that, or if Lynch just wanted to get a bunch of stuff out of the way in the lead up to the finale?

 

 

I guess it´s both of it. Some storylines just had to come to an end prior to the finale, because there is not enough time left. But with Cooper in 100% mode I presume that there will be a lot of speed and action in the last two epiodes.

 

On 28.8.2017 at 6:00 AM, AudreyCooper said:

I am not embarrassed to say that my husband may or may not have video footage of me weeping uncontrollably at Dale Cooper's return.

 

Same here Except of the husband and the camera. The return of Special Agent Dale Cooper was just so overwhelming. I cried in front of my computer screen. And from what I read on the internet, there are many people feeling the same way. He´s such a good character, I love him so much.

 

On 28.8.2017 at 6:04 AM, Alastair said:

After 15 hours of loving new Twin Peaks unconditionally, through good times and bad, I feel as if Twin Peaks at last looked me square in the eye and said "I love you too".

 

This is very well put. There were some thoughts that David Lynch maybe is trolling a bit with his audience. But this episode was just the proof that he does not at all. I think he loves his audience.

 

On 28.8.2017 at 7:37 AM, Mentalgongfu said:

The Mitchums ARE gangsters with hearts of gold.

 

They are. They really are. Just look at the way they interact with Sonny Jim. Like father or uncle figures. They surely have seen this hospital situations before (this scene reminded me to a lot to The Sopranos, when Tony was in a coma). It was such a great moment when they ordered the jet and the Badalamenti score was played. This Main Theme of Twin Peaks is surely one of the best pieces of music ever written for television. 

 

On 28.8.2017 at 8:11 AM, Kolzig said:

I was so close to shouting YES YES YES in that wrestling meme style when Dale Cooper said to Bushnell " I am the FBI". My dog thought I was nuts, and I almost woke up my wife and daughter when the clock was 5AM at that point.

 

I love that.

 

On 28.8.2017 at 1:29 PM, Captain Fram said:

I can't deal with how good this show is. I just got done with this episode and am pacing around the house all giddy-like. Twin Peaks is a goddamned miracle. 

 

Totally agree. And again, after 25 years, it´s so unique and different from other tv shows. To be honest I wasn´t quite sure before this episode, because of the rumors that Dale Cooper maybe wouldn´t return at all. But he did. Quite effectively. David Lynch and Mark Frost are fully aware about the expectations of the TP fans. And they just nailed it.

 

21 hours ago, WickedCestus said:

I love Old Coop, and I love New Old Coop, but I don't think they could have sustained him for 18 episodes. I think Lynch and McLachlan realized that you just can't capture that performance in the same way again; it's always going to feel just a little bit off, and I think that would have become more clear and uncomfortable if this had been a show entirely about Normal Dale Cooper. Glad to still get a few hours with him though

 

Nice explanation and I think you are totally right.

 

21 hours ago, pyide said:

Who did he get all the coordinates from again?

 

It´s confusing. Surely from Ray and Jeffries. But did we really saw that he has got coordinates from Diane prior to the scene in this episode? I really can´t remember.

 

18 hours ago, Lindsay said:

It's simple.  Diane is pronounced Naido backwards.  

 

Not quite. Naido backwards is Odian. But to be honest i also presume now that Naido is the real Diane. Just a feeling. I am very bad with theories and predictions. Let´s hope that it will be revealed. Otherwise ---> The Final Dossier of Mark Frost

 

18 hours ago, Woodfella said:

My brother had the reading that when Diane said that he sensed her fear and smiled and his face changed she saw bobs face. Which is probably an obvious reading but I missed it.

 

Not obvious at all and a great reading. Could have been very much so.

 

17 hours ago, Captain Fram said:

Just wanted to add that I absolutely loved Eddie Vedder's musical performance. His voice is so warm and comforting, and hearing him sing as Audrey cautiously walked into the bar was oddly affecting in a way I can't quite articulate.

 

Pearl Jam has always been one of my favourite bands in the 90´s. So good to see Eddie Vedder performimg in this great show.

 

13 hours ago, richardco said:

I think the only way this finale could disappoint me is if they answer everything. What made Twin Peaks such a wonderful experience for me was all of the questions surrounding the lodge and lore.

 

Same here. It´s good that there are mysteries. In life and in television.

 

13 hours ago, Owl said:

This is was a damn good episode! Cooper <3 And I loved the way the old twin peaks music felt like it was coming back with him. Now I just want him in a room with Gordon Cole and/or Twin Peaks folk.

 

Robert Forster has always been one of my favourite american actors. I just love these kind of father figures, which always seem to have an answer to everything, or at least pretending that they have. Just one scene with Frank Truman, Dale Cooper and Gordon Cole and my tv life would be fulfilled.

 

I´m really looking forward to the finale and no matter what will happen, Twin Peaks will always be special to me. Not just because of the great entertainment but even more in the way how people worldwide participate and come together in this television experience. Love and peace to all of you.

[SuoTempore]

1 hour ago, SkullKid said:

To recap, Richard Horne:

-Threatened to rape girls in a bar. 

-Murdered a child 

-Violently threatened and verbally abused his grandmother to a shocking degree. 

-Attempted to murder a witness to his crime

 

I think it's important to note that Richard didn't murder a child. He's clearly an abhorrent individual, but he didn't deliberately drive into the child, he was in a rage after being made fun of by someone who is clearly up the drug chain from him. He drove into the child because he lost control due to his own rage and jealousy. His character in general has come across (to me anyway) as someone who has been given no attention as a child, and has had to garner it from random people because the ones he desperately craves it from (Audrey and Ben) have not been forthcoming. 

 

 

[SuperBiasedMan]

1 hour ago, marblize said:

 

In my opinion nothing about this season's handling of rape has resembled "villain is bad" shorthand. It's one of the more in-depth depictions of long term trauma and psychological damage I've seen in recent memory, along with Big Little Lies. Maybe it's a bummer that it involved three beloved characters and maybe this isn't what you want twin peaks to be, but likening it to a cheap SVU narrative stab when that's not at all how it's functioning is absurd to me.

 

I don't think it's bargain basement style, but I don't see anything in the choices thus far to justify using rape in this way when other things could've been just as effective. The original series and FWWM I found very good at that, so I'd be all on board with it again if I saw depth to it like those had.

 

I would like to be proven wrong though, what was it that made you feel the depictions were of trauma and psychological damage were in-depth? I can see that with Dougie and it may be going that way with Audrey but it is a bit early to call that.

[Joewintergreen]

I watched this without subtitles and was quite surprised to find people reckon Diane said "I'm in the sheriff's station". Even watching it back listening for it I can't hear it. I just hear "*indistinct* sheriff's station" every time she says it

[The Great Went]

Yeah, I've kind of thought of The Return as having a post-human vibe. I guess the manufactured people had something to do with that. But in general, like Mr. C, there hasn't been much heart to it. Maybe the most I felt real humanity in this series was in some Bobby Briggs and Norma & Ed stuff, but mostly the series has been shot as if human beings were aliens or insects to be studied. I've  loved it and been obsessed, but it's just lacking the beating heart that was present in Season 1 and about half of Season 2, so it makes it hard to pull off some of the more emotionally demanding/vulnerable stuff. The Diane thing is hard because of the tense stand-off they're in, none of the Blue Rose people are in a position to offer comfort or sympathy. And it turns out she's not a human as-such and can not be trusted. Women's accounts of sexual assault are often met with suspicion in our world without the backdrop of tulpas and body doubles and assassination plots so it's... difficult. 

 

[brownbathrobe]

Long time listener, first time caller here...

 

It doesn't seem like a stretch to say that raping women (and feeding on their fear) is at least part of BOB's modus operandi. If we accept that BOB has "been along for the ride" since DoppelCoop left the lodge then it would be kind of odd if he hadn't done any raping in the 25 years that he's been running amok in the world. I don't like the idea either but it does feel pretty inevitable, given everything that has come before.

 

It's also worth considering he did it "strategically", in order to sire a son (who he ended up using as a canary-in-the-coal-mine in this episode) and to gain some kind of mental control over (Doppel)Diane.

 

Anyway, love the podcast and the lively discussion on this forum!

[MylastnameisPalmer]

Wow, I'm shocked at the turn this thread has taken towards being so critical of so many aspents of this season as a whole, now that the best episode of the season airs?! I think this season has surpassed the greatness the first two seasons and FWWM (which I have watched over and over again, and listened to the rewatch pod episode twice and still only like it in that it gives info with which to enjoy the return).

 

[The Great Went]

It's hard for me to explain, I think The Return is the greatest. Seriously. I love it. But it's cold. Like, that's just its serving temperature I guess. Like a pasta salad, or a Damn Fine Cold Brew Coffee. 

[Urthman]

I think the reason Hutch and Chantel's fate doesn't seem like a cheat is that they had already lost.  The FBI is there, the mobsters are there with their guns, Dougie isn't even coming back to the house--there's no possible way they can carry out their hit.  So having them die picking a fight with a random stranger rather than being ambushed by the FBI and/or the mob ends up giving them more agency rather than less.

[SuoTempore]

13 minutes ago, The Great Went said:

has been shot as if human beings were aliens or insects to be studied

That's exactly what we are. We are no different. We study each other.

 

I've loved this series and unless Dale Cooper rips off his face to reveal himself as Arya Stark and then enters a dragon's mind as a Lannister, I suspect I'll be happy with the outcome. Even then, I'll probably enjoy the crossover.

[Urthman]

If you had told me before the show started that Lynch was put Sherilyn Fenn out on the dance floor and have her do Audrey's Dance again, I would have thought for sure it was going to be the worst sort of lazy "Hey remember this thing? Here it is again!" approach to reviving/revisiting old TV shows.  But instead it was one of the most beautiful and eerie moments in the whole series.

 

For one thing, when was the last time you got to see a woman of Fenn's age and build dance on TV and she's not an object of ridicule and she's not dancing to seduce some dude, just because she's caught up in a song?  And that song/dance always seemed like Audrey's way of escaping Twin Peaks, dreaming of being elsewhere, dreaming of being with Cooper -- for it to be the means of escaping whatever purgatory she's been trapped in (and maybe also some awareness that Cooper is back?), and seeing her finally smile for the first time (as well as that uncanny introduction and the swaying of the crowd) was all so good.

 

This series has been full of moments that would have sounded like a total disaster on paper but that Lynch has really made work.  It's amazing.

[BonusWavePilot]

@Mentalgongfu said "Then the MC introduced "Audrey's dance," someone smashed Barney with a bottle, and Audrey screamed at her husband to get her out of there and flashed to a mirror in a white room.... so, I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but I'm starting to think she might be in a coma "

Heheh - I reckon at this stage Audrey is in an institution of some kind.  Her makeup-less reflection being so framed by white reads that way to me anyway.

 

@Owl said "Incidentally, I feel like we haven't given enough credit to the hilarious amount of beeping equipment in the office with Gordon Cole et al. It's like a sublte background parody of cop shows with how much beeping and blinking lights for no reason is  going on in the background of so many of these episodes. "

Yes!  The camera pan around the room with all the old-school equipment then back to Cole's slightly worried, not-entirely-comprehending face was one of my favourite parts of this episode.

 

@Urthmansaid " For one thing, when was the last time you got to see a woman of Fenn's age and build dance on TV and she's not an object of ridicule and she's not dancing to seduce some dude, just because she's caught up in a song?"

 

This stood out for me too, and I thought she played it really well.

[Nordelnob]

11 hours ago, Jake said:

 

To say season 3 is "about" those things on anything but a plot level is disingenuous. I'd argue, at least up through the episodes we've seen which is all anyone can argue about, that the story and feeling and character motivations of the season would be unchanged if the rape pieces of plot-fill were removed. That's absolutely not true for the Laura Palmer story (seasons 1.5 and FWWM). Those stories and those parts of Twin Peaks are truly "about" what you say, while I think in Season 3 Bad Cooper is written as a rapist as a device to add more notches to his "he's a bad character" belt, and it's otherwise disposable. 

 

To me, thematic injections of that type into Bad Coop are fanon, are wishing there was more there than there is. We still have two more chapters so I guess we'll see, but so far the show hasn't seemed concerned with more than lip service to the themes and concepts you're describing, when Bad Coop is concerned. 

The show isn't only about those things. But it is about those things. The dark parts of it at least. People forget how dark and disturbing the original was, and how much it relied on that stuff to be disturbing. It may not have been as graphic or violent, but it was just as scary and disturbing as FWWM and The Return. 

[pokysharpy]

12 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

Haha! That song is fucking terrible!

You're welcome!
:-) ALL

 

Wait, I think something is wrong with your keyboard. You meant to type "fantastic" and it substituted in "terrible"...?

 

:-)

[Nordelnob]

1 hour ago, pokysharpy said:

 

Wait, I think something is wrong with your keyboard. You meant to type "fantastic" and it substituted in "terrible"...?

 

:-)

THE COW JUMPED OVER THE MOON

[jharp]

I've never pumped my fist so fucking hard at an episode of television while screaming "HE'S FUCKING BACK!"

[Frohike]

• : - ) Probably a hieroglyph of the "smile" that Diane described as preceding her rape.
• I thought Jerry was yelling BIG BINOCULARS BIIIG BINOCULARS, like his altered mind assumed he was using the wrong ones (the "demagnifying" ones)
• I enjoyed the scene where the sound of DougieCoop's heart monitor traveled to Gordon Cole. Another moment of non-diegetic sound/music edits bleeding into the diegesis. (was Coop actually travelling electrically for a bit there, like the woodsmen?)
• The "heart of gold" bit with the Mitchum brothers seemed like it was playing around with the gold seed idea, particularly with Candy's weird knowing/spacey/creepy grin

 

 

[dartmonkey]

19 hours ago, Nappi said:

 

Because she said "I’m in the sheriff’s station. I’m in the sheriff’s station! I sent him those coordinates. I’m in the sheriff’s station because—because I’m not me," and turned out to be a tulpa shortly after.

 

Ah. Well, I suppose that makes sense. You're right, of course, but my stupid brain didn't connect Sheriff's Station with the Sheriff's Department building. Instead I went immediately to the Observation Station on Blue Pine Mountain. Which has nothing to do with the sheriff. I guess the word 'station' threw me off.

 

All this talk of Diane has had me humming The Bachelors for days.

 

I've been thinking hard about BadCoop and BOB's relationship and why the idea of him/them attacking women seemed so obvious and logical to me to begin with. My read on "How's Annie?!" wasn't that he was mocking Truman or Doc Hayward, but that he was mocking Cooper's altruism - the polar absolute opposite of his (BOB's) MO. It was hysterical to him to care about someone else's well-being and he was cackling at how easily he could fake it and fool everyone.

 

It was mentioned that Leland wasn't putting letters under dead girls' fingers and, therefore, the assumption is that BOB was in control. However, Leland met with Teresa Banks multiple times and murdered her only when she threatened to blackmail him. And when Leland saw Laura waiting for him with Ronette Pulaski in the motel he ran away. Would BOB run away? As noted before, FWWM shifts the blame more towards Leland. Is BOB only dominant at night? If that's true, why did he appear during the day when BadCoop woke up with Truman and Hayward? Maybe it IS Leland leaving those letters in an effort to identify and exorcise the man who abused him as a child.

 

My assumption was that BOB=fear and indiscriminate sexual violence, and therefore taking terrible advantage of the women in Cooper's life was a given. But now I think BOB had a very particular obsession with Laura Palmer - wanting to inhabit her, etc - and that the other attacks are all to do with fear alone. The sexual aspect seems incidental to him - it simply puts victims in a vulnerable state. Perhaps he encourages his hosts to indulge their darkest impulses before striking. Diane said BadCoop was weird, but composed and calm until he saw her fear.

 

I suppose there is still a logic to him attacking and raping Cooper's friends, assuming he could elicit fear. Audrey being raped while in a coma makes zero sense for BOB. It might make sense for BadCoop (if he simply needed offspring with his DNA) but that would be unnecessarily gross and awful. My read, at present, is that BOB flares up in his host when the opportunity arises but that fear is his only objective. BadCoop's activities this season are not his doing, as Leland's were not.

[pabosher]

Just in relation to the podcast’s suggestion that DougieCoop and Diane are surprising in relation to one another as both tulpas: I think the thing that was forgotten is that, pre-coop, dougie had a normal, quiet, boring life. Wife and kid and a job. He wasn’t always a Mr Magoo - just a quiet dude with odd tendencies. 

[JPL]

Wondering at the necessity / plausibility of Bad Coop raping Diane and Audrey connects to a larger unease I think a lot of us have with the entire allegorical layer of Twin Peaks most vividly raised with part 8's Golden Laura Orb: are these humans (and the odd doppleganger) just proxies for elemental forces, or are they complicated people who sometimes give those forces life via "the evil that men do"? As folks here have said, the former collapses a lot of depth from a lot of wonderful performances and writing. FWWM's grim family portrait really seemed to point towards the latter, but the supernatural stuff stayed in the frame, reading mostly as an echo of the human drama.

If the former idea holds sway with Bad Coop, then he raped because he contained / was possessed by BOB, and that's what BOB does. If the latter, then it seems almost entirely gratuitous: Bad Coop is all of Cooper's resourcefulness and insight and dignity in a dark mirror, he may "want" things but only in service of seemingly very non-BOB-like goals.

Unlikely The Return's conclusion will give us a firm answer in such broad strokes but I suspect it'll still do much to confirm my sense of the intent here. Either way, as with any use of sexual assault in fiction, I think the burden of creative justification rests very much on Lynch, Frost et al.

[prangman]

Can't really add much to what people have already said. But on a different note, the Zawaski accounting guy's response to Chantal and Hutch parking in his drive reminded my straight away of the scene in lost highway when Mr Eddy is being tailgated on the road and beats the shit out of the tailgater. In an interview with Michal J.Anderson he mentions how he was in a car with Lynch around the time of LH and how he was silently fuming after being tailgated, and that he was amazed when he watched lost highway and saw Lynch effectively creating an elaborate revenge fantasy on screen for a real life incident. So I suppose it's not unreasonable to presume that Lynch was having trouble with people parking on his drive when these scenes were filmed...

[Ash_NR]

Yeah I am disappointed by the use of rape as flippant shorthand for badness. I always saw BOB as impulsiveness and hedonism. I saw it intermingled within Leland as an almost symbiotic relationship to feed off Leland's depraved desires.

 

BadCoop is not Leland and not simply BOB, BadCoop this season has enacted a complex plan to ensure that he stays in this world. He is guided by his needs, not wants, which again doesn't feel like BOB. He is also someone that appears at least to me to have a regular, consensual sexual relationship with Chantal.

The implication of BadCoop raping both Audrey and Diane echoes more of a BOB/Leland relationship. I can't imagine the nature of BOB is something we'll get out of the final 2 hours.

[Ozzie]

While I don't think that the Diane scene was necessarily enough to justify the reveal, I thought it was very strong. I felt very much for her when she told her story, and I don't think the second reveal, that she was a tulpa, lessened the impact of it at all.

What does her being a tulpa mean exactly, anyway? I guess tulpa Diane was manifested as a copy of Diane by Mr. C, with additional programming added so she could serve as his puppet.

Tulpa Diane's pain was real, because it was her memories she was talking about. That she was struggling against her very being on top of that made the scene even more tragic. The struggle also helped to make her account not appear any less trustworthy. I would prefer if this isn't all we get in regards to the consequences of the rape, but I actually wasn't disappointed because I thought the scene was exceptionally well done. And, looking back, it helped to explain Diane's behavior, which made me feel even more for her.

 

It's a different story with Audrey, though...I still don't see the point. I don't know what it adds to the story that Mr. C raped Audrey in the hospital. Mr. C conceived an evil spawn? Because, sure, like father like son. I don't like that either. We were more witnessing Richard's destruction than getting to know the people whose lifes he destroyed and the consequences the destruction brought. Richard's storyline is the weakest to me by far.