Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 51: The Return, Part 16

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4 minutes ago, alexfpiercey said:

 

Incorrect, but thanks for going through the effort!

Haha! That song is fucking terrible!

You're welcome!
:-) ALL

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16 hours ago, WickedCestus said:

I was disappointed that the theories about Mr. C raping Diane and likely also Audrey were confirmed. I don't know how I feel about it, necessarily. For the most part, the fact that Mr. C is evil has been expressed in this show through his mistreatment of women, from Darya to Diane. It's very uncomfortable. I mean, it's supposed to be uncomfortable. Still trying to reckon with myself how I feel about this, because generally I dislike stories that rely so heavily on themes of abuse and gratuitous violence. I will continue to read everyone's thoughts about this on our forum here, because I think there have been plenty of interesting discussions about this up until now. 

 

This show has always been about rape and violence and the horrific things people are capable of. It's the darkness of BOB and what these evil lodge creatures are capable of that makes them so terrifying. If they avoided things like that, it would have no teeth, and the bad guys would be like cartoons. 

Having some evil version of you running around doing such horrible things like rape and murdering people.. it's just unthinkable. it's the worst kind of violation. people you love now think you did this to them. I can't think of anything worse.

Some of the best things about FWWM were about Laura dealing with and coming to realize the abuse she suffered at the hands of her own father. It's precisely what made that movie so great. It's uncomfortable, but Twin Peaks is one of the few shows that explores these things and does it well. I think so anyways.. The original run sort of danced around it a bit more, I suspect because it was a prime time show on ABC and not HBO Showtime. There's probably only so much dark and mature themes they could get away with in the early nineties on network TV. But even then, they still addressed it often, and they did a good job at it. It never seemed contrived or gratuitous or exploitative or anything like that. I don't think The Return has either.

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9 hours ago, Owl said:

My only gripe with this episode is the bit about Chantal being 'on the rag' with the implication that her subsequent dumb actions are partially the result of that. Exhibit #33305 of shitty representation of women in this season.

 

Perhaps, but I just took it to mean Hutch is a shithead who just thinks that sort of thing.

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5 minutes ago, Schnapple said:

 

Perhaps, but I just took it to mean Hutch is a shithead who just thinks that sort of thing.

 

Bingo. Makes me love the character even more. 

And her reaction.. "What if I fucking was!"

She totally was.

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38 minutes ago, Nordelnob said:

This show has always been about rape and violence and the horrific things people are capable of. It's the darkness of BOB and what these evil lodge creatures are capable of that makes them so terrifying. If they avoided things like that, it would have no teeth, and the bad guys would be like cartoons. 

 

To say season 3 is "about" those things on anything but a plot level is disingenuous. I'd argue, at least up through the episodes we've seen which is all anyone can argue about, that the story and feeling and character motivations of the season would be unchanged if the rape pieces of plot-fill were removed. That's absolutely not true for the Laura Palmer story (seasons 1.5 and FWWM). Those stories and those parts of Twin Peaks are truly "about" what you say, while I think in Season 3 Bad Cooper is written as a rapist as a device to add more notches to his "he's a bad character" belt, and it's otherwise disposable. 

 

To me, thematic injections of that type into Bad Coop are fanon, are wishing there was more there than there is. We still have two more chapters so I guess we'll see, but so far the show hasn't seemed concerned with more than lip service to the themes and concepts you're describing, when Bad Coop is concerned. 

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As much as I hate hate hate the idea of rape being part of Diane's story and Audrey's story, I feel like that die was cast as soon as they decided the premise of Season Three is Bad Coop has been on the loose for 25 years.

 

Because the whole entire reason the cliff hanger at the end of Season Two is so horrible is the implication that Cooper has become what Leland Palmer was, that he's going to go hurt Annie and any other women that Cooper cares about.  (Which was, I hope, originally an--unless Sheriff Truman & his crew can somehow stop him and/or the Real Cooper escapes--scenario.)

 

I've always been repelled by that part of Twin Peaks (I couldn't even bring myself to watch all of Fire Walk With Me).  I usually avoid movies or TV that use rape as a plot device.  Lynch has done all sorts of fascinating, beautiful, sublime, silly things with Twin Peaks, but I really wish it didn't have this element at its core.

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40 minutes ago, Nordelnob said:

Having some evil version of you running around doing such horrible things like rape and murdering people.. it's just unthinkable. it's the worst kind of violation. people you love now think you did this to them. I can't think of anything worse.

 

Being raped is probably worse than having an evil doppelganger do those things.  Being raped is definitely worse than people thinking you are a rapist.

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12 minutes ago, Urthman said:

As much as I hate hate hate the idea of rape being part of Diane's story and Audrey's story, I feel like that die was cast as soon as they decided the premise of Season Three is Bad Coop has been on the loose for 25 years.

 

Because the whole entire reason the cliff hanger at the end of Season Two is so horrible is the implication that Cooper has become what Leland Palmer was, that he's going to go hurt Annie and any other women that Cooper cares about.  (Which was, I hope, originally an--unless Sheriff Truman & his crew can somehow stop him and/or the Real Cooper escapes--scenario.)

 

I've always been repelled by that part of Twin Peaks (I couldn't even bring myself to watch all of Fire Walk With Me).  I usually avoid movies or TV that use rape as a plot device.  Lynch has done all sorts of fascinating, beautiful, sublime, silly things with Twin Peaks, but I really wish it didn't have this element at its core.

I don't buy this. I think it's easy to think that, because it's the show we got. But those choices aren't inevitable.

 

E.g. BOB manifests as a sexual predator when he guides Leland's hand, but does that mean it had to apply to Cooper? If it "must" mean that, did Bad Coop have to succeed? In any version, they also had the choice to tell the story differently than they did, and  focus on the human (and I'd argue, actually interesting) level. Instead - up to this point at least - I feel like we're watching an attempt to have cake and eat it. "Well yes he would be a rapist and isn't it totally fucked up that he'd be a rapist? Anyway moving on to cool meta-arc lore..."

 

These are all creative choices, not inevitability. 

 

(The season isn't complete so I'm not going to post about it more until then. But as of this moment I think it's worth raising an eyebrow over at least.)

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1 minute ago, Jake said:

I don't buy this. I think it's easy to think that because it's the show we got. BOB manifests as a sexual predator when he guides Leland's hand, but does that mean it had to apply to Cooper? If it "must" mean that, they also had the choice to tell the story differently than they did, and actually focus on it on anything resembling a human (and I'd argue, actually interesting) level. Instead - up to this point at least - I feel like we're watching an attempt to have cake and eat it. "Well yes he would be a rapist and isn't it totally fucked up that he'd be a rapist? Anyway moving on to cool meta-arc lore..."

 

I don't know what else you could think was meant by Cooper/BOB cackling about "Annie? Annie?!" 

 

I agree with you that they could have contrived some reason that Bad Coop wasn't able to do those things, but Twin Peaks has, I hate to say, always been about women getting assaulted.  Cooper and the agents in Fire Walk With Me are investigating a string of these crimes (are we to think Leland killed all the women with letters under their nails?).  I wish it weren't.

I also agree with you that if this is where Lynch wanted to go with the plot he ought to have done much more to make women subjects rather than objects, which I think was why the treatment of this subject in Fire Walk With Me is better.

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1 minute ago, Urthman said:

I don't know what else you could think was meant by Cooper/BOB cackling about "Annie? Annie?!" 

 

I think its ridiculous to jump to "he meant 'I intend to rape Annie'" as the only takeaway from that, if that's what you're implying??

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15 hours ago, Lindsay said:

It's simple.  Diane is pronounced Naido backwards.  

 

Great catch, I was thinking it was a 80% anagram, but that makes more sense. 

 

- It took me a bit to piece it together but the smile emoji referencing bobs smile which comes out in the story, which as a message means kill "all"  Referencing "he wears a smile, everybody run".

 

-Also I like the juxtaposition of coopers personal voice recorded messages to Diane vs Mr.C's impersonal texts and emoji es.

 

-It's amazing how much thought went into anticipating the viewers emotions and reactions to the choices made by the show, and how they play with us, drawing things out and bring them around to a satisfying emotional response.  While simultaneously winking at us.

 

-In retrospect, Dale Cooper was always kind of a super hero, his power is being the most effective person at everything he does, (Mr.C has this as well) which means if he was active and running around for 18 episodes it wouldn't leave much conflict to resolve, or they would have come up with ways to deflate/ stymie him. Which would be somewhat out of character for him, the previous seasons had this same problem. So I guess I approve of Dougie.

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I have always taken the "How's Annie?" scene in the bathtroom as Cooper's doppleganger/Bob getting a big laugh at how well he was able to fake the appearance of real concern when he asked the same question to Truman and the Doc moments earlier. Not as an indication of any specific intent.

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Yikes. Maybe I'm completely off base here? What evil things did you imagine a Coop/BOB entity would do?

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32 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

I have always taken the "How's Annie?" scene in the bathtroom as Cooper's doppleganger/Bob getting a big laugh at how well he was able to fake the appearance of real concern when he asked the same question to Truman and the Doc moments earlier. Not as an indication of any specific intent.

 

Very much agree. He's taking the piss out of the detectives for not realising that not only is he still out, but now in the body of someone that they, and indeed anyone that has met Cooper, inherently trust.

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52 minutes ago, Urthman said:

Yikes. Maybe I'm completely off base here? What evil things did you imagine a Coop/BOB entity would do?

 

Cooper could have gone after the FBI and the Twin Peaks Sheriff's Department. Truman and Cole would be prime targets, would they not? He could destroy the town of Twin Peaks itself, undermine the safe haven Cooper thought he had found. Specifically targeting the women Cooper cared about and enacting gendered violence onto them is just one of the options they could have taken, and one of the less interesting ones to me.

 

I didn't have a specific picture of what evil Cooper could do, but rape as the go to is just something normalised by TV as a tropey way to show how horrible a villain is with little thought to their victims. Twin Peaks has been good about this in the past, and hopefully the finale will fare better than the rest of the season has thus far. It's not the worst, but it certainly has left something to be desired when compared to Fire Walk With Me.

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Man, Albert is such a bro. Finger on the trigger the moment Diane started to act weird. Tammy too.

 

I was initially worried when Diane approached the room and we see Gordon inside because I thought he was alone in there, but nah they got his back.

 

tumblr_ovf7lzUupf1vcmtl0o1_500.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Urthman said:

I guess Albert's commitment to nonviolence doesn't include Tulpas?

 

Albert's path is a strange and difficult one.

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29 minutes ago, SuoTempore said:

 

Albert's path is a strange and difficult one.

I mean, he is an FBI agent. Non-violence isn't always an option.

 

Even the Dalai Llama has his limits:

 

 

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5 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

Well I got really excited by this and I went through all of the scenes. I can't see any sort of pattern. I believe I have just wasted 30 minutes of my life!

+ = Direct shot of sign

- = Puddle
 

1 + chromatics (lyrics mention stranger in a dream. James is cool scene.)

3 – folk country thing

4 + 3 keyboard ladies

5 – Dark Blues (Richard Horne assaults a woman)

6 + Lady plays electric guitar

7 + Guy Sweeps to organ blues (Jaques talks about whores)

8 ? The NIN (introduction from MC)

9 – DJ/Keyboard Broads same clothes as before (itchy armpit lady talks to her friend about flipping burgers)

10 + Spanish lady from Mulholland Drive

11 no bar (Dougie eats pie to piano man in restaurant)

12 + chromatics same cloths (guy talks about almost getting hit by car, and a bunch of names are dropped)

13 + James (sings his cool song while what’s her name cries)

14 + Terrible lady sings stupid song about Wild Wild West (two girls have conversation about Billy)

15 A + Sharp Dressed Man (James’ friend punches dudes)
     B + Terrible Obsidian Song (girl gets put on floor and crawls)

16 +  Eddie Vedder/Audrey’s Dance (guy smashes bottle/Audrey “wakes up”)

Please excuse my retarded descriptions I was trying to find a pattern but I don't see it.

I love this list. 

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So, now that Richard Horne is dead, we can look back at his legacy.

  • Assault in the Roadhouse bar
  • Destroys a child with a car
  • Attempted murder of neighbar

Not all of this was necessary to depict the character. I almost checked out after the lazy cruelty of the hit-and-run. But similar to the unfortunate, underwritten use of "he raped me" for Diane, I think you have to take the good-bad with the bad-bad in Twin Peaks. If Frost and Lynch are going to go to these dark places and come back with rich fictional constructs, they are also going to delve into those dark places and come back with shallow plot devices, sometimes.

 

The point is, they go there.  It doesn't always work out.  Sometimes you end up with "get some potatoes" and sometimes you get "i am the fbi."


AND YET.

 

The thing that makes Diane's scene double disappointing was the potential layers were right there in the text.  She herself mentioned that he kissed her and it had happened "one time before."  Hey, really?  Now, that's interesting. They'd had a romantic moment as Good Coop!  There's a bittersweet-to-dark tale to unwrap there!  Instead of unwrapping it, they just blasted right to lazy horror.


AND YET.

 

Armchair rewrites on pieces of text in an 18 hour screenplay... geez. I am just gonna give Flynch a break and move on.  Good-bad, bad-bad -- we got 18 hours of Twin Peaks.

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2 hours ago, Urthman said:

I guess Albert's commitment to nonviolence doesn't include Tulpas?

 

2 hours ago, SuoTempore said:

 

Albert's path is a strange and difficult one.

 

1 hour ago, Mentalgongfu said:

I mean, he is an FBI agent. Non-violence isn't always an option.

 

That was what I intended. He is a nay-sayer and hatchet man in the fight against violence, but occasionally he has whittling to do.

 

@Nordelnob

You fought the fight for the rest of us. Time well spent.

 

 

 

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As much as I've enjoyed this season, I have to echo the concerns about the reliance on brutal violence and rape. The biggest concern I have is the death of the child, which, unless that thread comes back in a significant way in the last two hours, was completely played for shock. 

 

To recap, Richard Horne:

-Threatened to rape girls in a bar. 

-Murdered a child 

-Violently threatened and verbally abused his grandmother to a shocking degree. 

-Attempted to murder a witness to his crime

 

...And then just got...electrocuted to death on a rock. In the case of Hutch and Chantel, I really liked the choice to make their comeuppance random and disconnected from previous story threads. But in the case of Richard Horne (assuming he's dead, of course) it seems inappropriate. Breaking Bad established Gus Fring as one of the baddest villains of all time before we even saw him slit that guy's throat. This show went to gratuitous lengths to show Richard's depravity only to end his storyline in a way that does not involve any of our heroes. 

 

I know there's artistic intent there. I just don't think it's effective. 

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