Jake

Twin Peaks Rewatch 51: The Return, Part 16

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I am laying bets on Diane as bloody-mouthed-prison-guy-who-is-possibly-Billy.  His glossolalia is similar to Dougie's repetitions, but with more mockery implied, which might fit with Diane's more acerbic personality.  (Although why BadCoop would have wanted to keep her around at all is another matter - surely would be less loose ends just to kill her...)

Also, @Mentalgongfu, I know it is pointless, but as one of those pedants who fancies themselves as fighting a rearguard action against the ongoing decay of the language, I feel compelled to point out that the phrase is "to jibe with" rather than "jive with", 'jibe' being a rather archaic term for accord.

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1 hour ago, Demimonde said:

Something I've wondered for some time. Could Chantal and Hutch have been brother and sister? Maybe I've watched too much Game of Thrones, but did we ever have confirmation that they were a couple? Because they weren't intimate onscreen, and their shared last name might have been a family thing. Hutch encouraging Chantal to make out with Mr. C could have been an expression of desire to see his sister happy, as with getting her extra ketchup and a dessert.  Or I could have missed it.

 

Doesn't Bad Coop refer to Hutch as "your husband' when he meets Chantal in the motel after killing Darya?

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Hutch is refered to as her husband in that scene, yes. I just started the season over. Even having watched a lot of the episodes two and three times, I'm still making connections I'd missed. 

 

One thing occurred to me, and I don't think it's likely, but Dougie's backstory is that he was in a car accident and is a bit slow. That's almost exactly what we think and know about James. What if James never returned to Twin Peaks and is just an off, Tulpa-fied version of James! Oh no!

 

Again, I don't think so, but the similarity made me laugh. 

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56 minutes ago, FRENDEN said:

Hutch is refered to as her husband in that scene, yes. I just started the season over. Even having watched a lot of the episodes two and three times, I'm still making connections I'd missed. 

 

One thing occurred to me, and I don't think it's likely, but Dougie's backstory is that he was in a car accident and is a bit slow. That's almost exactly what we think and know about James. What if James never returned to Twin Peaks and is just an off, Tulpa-fied version of James! Oh no!

 

Again, I don't think so, but the similarity made me laugh. 

 

It would be pretty awesome if Kitchen Glove Iron Fist dude's destiny was to crush a homicidal Bad-Coop-activated TulpaJames in order to protect Naido. 

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Yeah. I had that thought too. It might explain why nothing happened to James one way or the other in the boiler room. Tulpa James would be sad in a tragic, wonderful way. I don't think that's where we're heading, but the similarity in backstories is there. 

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7 hours ago, Jake said:

It's my hope/assumption that since the "new" Dougie is going to be built from the seed (glass bead) of old Dougie but the hair of good Coop, they'll end up with their old Dougie back, with whatever memories and feelings he has (from the seed) but without the parts bad Coop was injecting (because the hair source is switched).

 

Sorry if we play fast and loose with who Dougie is and who Cooper is. When it counts we try to be clear that it was actually two bodies changing locations, and not "Cooper taking over Dougie's body." Cooper took over Dougie's LIFE but their bodies are their own.*

 

* Dougie's of course, while his own, was created by Bad Coop. 

 

My take was that the seed is the framework whilst the hair provides the data, rather than the other way round.  

 

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22 hours ago, Ash_NR said:

Yeah I am disappointed by the use of rape as flippant shorthand for badness. I always saw BOB as impulsiveness and hedonism. I saw it intermingled within Leland as an almost symbiotic relationship to feed off Leland's depraved desires.

 

BadCoop is not Leland and not simply BOB, BadCoop this season has enacted a complex plan to ensure that he stays in this world. He is guided by his needs, not wants, which again doesn't feel like BOB. He is also someone that appears at least to me to have a regular, consensual sexual relationship with Chantal.

The implication of BadCoop raping both Audrey and Diane echoes more of a BOB/Leland relationship. I can't imagine the nature of BOB is something we'll get out of the final 2 hours.

If a good man like Leland can be driven to rape his own daughter, a truly evil character like Mr. C is not that much of a stretch. Especially if he hadn't quite wrestled the reins away from BOB in the beginning. I can see it taking years for his own personality to take over and become the dominant personality. I look back at the end of season 2 and I see a much different character than the one we have now. Much more like BOB. As he took over, he became more cold and logical, almost the opposite of BOB in a way since passions don't rule him. But he's still evil, and only out for himself. At this point in the story, BOB is more of a tool so he can have super human abilities than a part of his personality. Perhaps it can make sense that in the beginning he would behave like a serial rapist with purely hedonistic impulses whose only motive is to cause fear and to feed on it, but over the course of 25 years he became the more calculating, and truly formidable Mr. C that we have today. His goal now is self-preservation at any cost.

 

4 hours ago, Mike Danger said:

Doesn't Bad Coop refer to Hutch as "your husband' when he meets Chantal in the motel after killing Darya?

Is Hutch a confirmed cuck? If this is true, I love it. I've kind of always been confused about what the exact nature of their relationship was.

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17 hours ago, Invisible Strings said:

I just want to say for the record that TP Rewatch is my favorite podcast. I really enjoy the personality and the insights and the articulate thoughts you guys bring to these discussions. It has been difficult to find another place with TP conversation that is this enjoyable. Thanks to Chris and Jake.

I agree. When the episode is over, I'm always anxious for the podcast to be posted a few days later. IT'S SO GOOD! :-)
Gonna miss the podcast and these forum discussions almost as much as the show when this is all over. Twin Peaks is such a  good show for theorizing and discussing this stuff. I only know one person who has been keeping up who I can talk to in real life, so this forum/podcast has really filled a big void in talking about this stuff.

Hopefully we still get that whole season retrospective thing you guys mentioned (I think?) a few weeks ago. Can't wait.

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1 hour ago, Nordelnob said:

If a good man like Leland can be driven to rape his own daughter, a truly evil character like Mr. C is not that much of a stretch. Especially if he hadn't quite wrestled the reins away from BOB in the beginning.

I agree that perhaps BOB's influence has changed - the season 2 ending very explicitly highlighted his presence in the doppelgänger - but the 'good man like Leland' interpretation is something I disagree with. Chris and Jake have discussed it on the 'cast (and people on the forums too) and there's no evidence to say Leland is blameless and 'good'. If BOB is a manifestation of the 'evil that men do', it is (WO)MEN that must create conditions for him to exist in them. He's not a bogeyman who inhabits hapless innocents. He couldn't inhabit Laura, for example, although there are scenes where she appears to be succumbing to that evil (when she's on the stairway in FWWM) and at risk of letting him in.

 

My immediate thought (and I guess that of many viewers) on watching the S2 finale was that BadCoop and BOB would begin a spree of devious, violent attacks, starting with Annie and probably moving through the entire Miss Twin Peaks lineup. I think FWWM and S3 introduced more subtle and complicated motivations for BadCoop and BOB, and it would be a shame if the audiences' assumptions were indulged rather than being subverted in any way.

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Some speculations on the tulpa / lodge spirit / doppleganger cosmology.

 

Giant Fireman and company created a golden orb that had Laura Palmer's face on it. This golden orb resembles the tulpa seed. Does this mean the "spirit of Laura Palmer" is Tulpa-like in nature? Or perhaps that meant that tulpa-seed was encoded to inhabit Laura Palmer, and 

 

In the nuclear explosion, the Mother entity vomits eggs and weird clay blobs, which has the Bob Face on it. Is this how the Bob lodge spirit first enters Earth?

 

Or rather that a Tupla-seed can enter earth realm and possess earth people, such as Laura Palmer. Perhaps having a Tulpa-seed created by Fireman and company possessed Laura Palmer and prevented her from being possessed by Bob.

 

Perhaps the Laura Tulpa-seed-spirit bounced around after Laura's death, a for example briefly inhabits Donna- Causing Sarah to mistake Laura for Donna in Season 1 Episode 2-ish.

 

When Tulpa's are created by evil Dopplegangers or Lodge Spirits, it's a Tulpa AND a tainted thing of evil. When Diane-tulpa and Dougie-tulpa are deflated in the red room, they both exhaust deathly black smoke and tarry floating blob that causes Mike to cover his eyes. Perhaps it's too bright for Mike to look at, but perhaps it's also too evil for Mike to look at.

 

Perhaps Tulpa-seeds that inhabit humans, like Laura Palmer, or that are created by non-evil or from non-evil, like whatever Cooper instructs Mike to make, will not contain the tarry insides of a Booper-and-Bob-made-Tulpa.

 

I'm also of the opinion the Jumping Man is the Mother entity. I'm also of the opinion that Jumping Man / Mother "has a light," when Sarah takes her face off before biting Truck You, there's is a "spark spark" sound effect like she is lighting a cigarette. 

 

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Some interesting theories. Is it possible that Philip Gerard (the actual shoe salesman) and the original Robertson that Leland knew as a child are tulpas of their respective Lodge beings?

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3 hours ago, dartmonkey said:

I agree that perhaps BOB's influence has changed - the season 2 ending very explicitly highlighted his presence in the doppelgänger - but the 'good man like Leland' interpretation is something I disagree with. Chris and Jake have discussed it on the 'cast (and people on the forums too) and there's no evidence to say Leland is blameless and 'good'. If BOB is a manifestation of the 'evil that men do', it is (WO)MEN that must create conditions for him to exist in them. He's not a bogeyman who inhabits hapless innocents. He couldn't inhabit Laura, for example, although there are scenes where she appears to be succumbing to that evil (when she's on the stairway in FWWM) and at risk of letting him in.

 

My immediate thought (and I guess that of many viewers) on watching the S2 finale was that BadCoop and BOB would begin a spree of devious, violent attacks, starting with Annie and probably moving through the entire Miss Twin Peaks lineup. I think FWWM and S3 introduced more subtle and complicated motivations for BadCoop and BOB, and it would be a shame if the audiences' assumptions were indulged rather than being subverted in any way.

It's pretty clear in the show that Leland wasn't even aware of his actions until the very end when BOB "pulled the ripchord".. I don't know how much more blameless you can get. Sure there has to be some darkness for BOB to enter, that much is clear. But I have no trouble believing that if it weren't for BOB possessing him (and remember this happened when he was very young, like 12 or something), he would have gone on to be a perfectly descent man. There's no way to know that for sure, but his final speech makes things lean HEAVILY in that direction. It's kind of the whole point of that end for him. He seems so childlike and innocent and just GOOD in those final moments. He finally lets go of the darkness and goes towards the light, free of BOB and at peace and with Laura. FWWM plays with that  notion a bit, mostly for dramatic reasons I think, I mean imagine if Leland had been a raving lunatic that whole film, it just wouldn't have worked the same way. Even though we as the audience already knew he was possessed by BOB, it would be too obvious, particularly to Laura and the other characters, if they made it so cut and dried. But I don't think there are many people who could say Leland wasn't deep down a good person.

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3 hours ago, plasticflesh said:

Some speculations on the tulpa / lodge spirit / doppleganger cosmology.

 

Giant Fireman and company created a golden orb that had Laura Palmer's face on it. This golden orb resembles the tulpa seed. Does this mean the "spirit of Laura Palmer" is Tulpa-like in nature? Or perhaps that meant that tulpa-seed was encoded to inhabit Laura Palmer, and 

 

In the nuclear explosion, the Mother entity vomits eggs and weird clay blobs, which has the Bob Face on it. Is this how the Bob lodge spirit first enters Earth?

 

Or rather that a Tupla-seed can enter earth realm and possess earth people, such as Laura Palmer. Perhaps having a Tulpa-seed created by Fireman and company possessed Laura Palmer and prevented her from being possessed by Bob.

 

Perhaps the Laura Tulpa-seed-spirit bounced around after Laura's death, a for example briefly inhabits Donna- Causing Sarah to mistake Laura for Donna in Season 1 Episode 2-ish.

 

When Tulpa's are created by evil Dopplegangers or Lodge Spirits, it's a Tulpa AND a tainted thing of evil. When Diane-tulpa and Dougie-tulpa are deflated in the red room, they both exhaust deathly black smoke and tarry floating blob that causes Mike to cover his eyes. Perhaps it's too bright for Mike to look at, but perhaps it's also too evil for Mike to look at.

 

Perhaps Tulpa-seeds that inhabit humans, like Laura Palmer, or that are created by non-evil or from non-evil, like whatever Cooper instructs Mike to make, will not contain the tarry insides of a Booper-and-Bob-made-Tulpa.

 

I'm also of the opinion the Jumping Man is the Mother entity. I'm also of the opinion that Jumping Man / Mother "has a light," when Sarah takes her face off before biting Truck You, there's is a "spark spark" sound effect like she is lighting a cigarette. 

 

I feel like the interpretation Lynch is going for is that WE ARE ALL TULPAS in a way, since we were all created from a thought. Every single being that exists is just a creation that was thought up from something else and when you go all the way back to the source, be it The Fireman or God or the Mother or whatever, it still boils down to the same thing. I truly believe that is the entire purpose of showing the golden orbs in the first place. There is fundamentally no difference between Laura and one of the Tulpas, except who or what spawned them. The one who spawned everything, the dreamer, is essentially God. Whether reality is a dream or some mystical thing, or a computer program, or whether there are purely mechanical answers is up for debate I guess. 

And that makes the distinction between tulpas, dopplegangers, and Laura/BOB moot in a way. The only real difference is that Tulpas come from other people, humans that we already "know" exist. It seems the further down you go, Tulpas coming from Dopplegangers, the more dim and less conscious they are, possibly because they are further away from the source and have less pure consciousness within them(which is probably why Laura and BOB's orbs seem to be much bigger. they are made from more metaphysical "stuff" than those tiny tulpa orbs).

I appreciate the fact that this will probably not be explicitly spelled out for us, and Agent Cole's Monica Bellucci  dream is probably the closest we will ever get to a definite answer. I like this interpretation the best as long as they keep it sort of vague and nebulous.

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3 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

It's pretty clear in the show that Leland wasn't even aware of his actions until the very end when BOB "pulled the ripchord".. I don't know how much more blameless you can get. Sure there has to be some darkness for BOB to enter, that much is clear. But I have no trouble believing that if it weren't for BOB possessing him (and remember this happened when he was very young, like 12 or something), he would have gone on to be a perfectly descent man. There's no way to know that for sure, but his final speech makes things lean HEAVILY in that direction. It's kind of the whole point of that end for him. He seems so childlike and innocent and just GOOD in those final moments. He finally lets go of the darkness and goes towards the light, free of BOB and at peace and with Laura. FWWM plays with that  notion a bit, mostly for dramatic reasons I think, I mean imagine if Leland had been a raving lunatic that whole film, it just wouldn't have worked the same way. Even though we as the audience already knew he was possessed by BOB, it would be too obvious, particularly to Laura and the other characters, if they made it so cut and dried. But I don't think there are many people who could say Leland wasn't deep down a good person.

If BOB possesses Leland completely, and the real 'good' Leland is suppressed and unable to do anything about it, doesn't that mean the only time we ever see the real Leland is just before he dies? I don't buy that - not only because it's not as interesting, but doesn't Sarah see BOB in the house when Leland isn't there?

 

Edit. Of course, Leland's abuse at the hands of Robertson/BOB plays into this, so one could argue that BOB is ultimately responsible. But the Lodge spirit BOB as metaphor is a much stronger idea for me than the bogeyman puppet master BOB who's been driving Leland since he was 12.

 

Edit Edit. I agree that Leland's final scene strongly suggests his helplessness under BOB's control, but he's about to die. He's confessing, he's desperate, pathetic, pitiable and childlike. The catharsis of finally letting his secret out is powerful and it's tempting to see him as pure victim but for me it doesn't absolve him from his participation.

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It has been a while since I watched FWWM, but I believe Leland tells Laura, "I always thought you knew it was me."  I think Jake and Chris have mentioned this also. It seems to indicate some level of guilt and complicity of his own. Granted, taken that way, it does contradict the Leland confession scene in Season Two in some ways, but only if you view it as a black-and-white choice of Leland being passive and controlled entirely by Bob or as acting on his own. I think it is more of a gray area, where he was influenced by Bob to committ his crimes but wasn't completely passive. 

 

It could also boil down to Lynch just shifting the backstory for the film, where he had complete control, versus the TV version as a collaboration, or just that ABC might not have wanted the darker version of Leland having agency in his daughter's abuse. Primetime network TV in 91/92 was cetainly not keen to touch the idea of familial sexual abuse, so maybe that was just as far as they would let Lynch push it (which was still pretty far for that time).  

 

I personally prefer to reconcile the two portrayals to the gray area rather than claim one is right and the other wrong, but I don't think Lynch or Frost have commented explicitly on it outside of the creative works. Bob being "the evil that men do," does seem to get at this idea, however, and there may be some illuminating stuff in Frost's books but I have not read them.

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4 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

 But I don't think there are many people who could say Leland wasn't deep down a good person.

 

I kind of feel like deciding whether Leland is "good" or "bad" is beside the point. 

 

The signification of goodness with Leland always seemed very demonstrative and false to me. His revelation of what he had done to his daughter, to me, read as someone finally reconciling with their partitioned self. Someone facing their deeds after dissociating from a fundamental part of themselves for most of their life. 

 

Leland's job was basically to exploit the legal system to secure land and sell out the community on behalf of Benjamin Horne. When he's having dinner with the Haywards the night after his hair turns white, he laments the loss of jobs and destruction of the Lumber Mill, knowing full well that it will benefit his employer and thereby himself. It reads as completely disingenuous concern to me. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

 

I personally prefer to reconcile the two portrayals to the gray area rather than claim one is right and the other wrong, but I don't think Lynch or Frost have commented explicitly on it outside of the creative works. 

 

In the book Lynch On Lynch, Lynch talks about Leland in a roundabout way and says there's good and evil in everybody -- that he can sincerely be loving and caring at some times and this monster at others. The suggestion is that is contained within all people. And he also talks about Bob as the embodiment of an abstract idea. I think Lynch is more interested in abstractions and surrealist metaphor rather than cleaning up a story.  I think the "evil that men do" was basically other people putting too fine a point on the idea that these things are contained below the surface of normal life. But hey, you gotta move the plot along too. He also talks about Sarah Palmer indirectly and speculates stuff like "Maybe she suspected but how can you possibly accuse someone of something like that if you're not absolutely sure, and if you're wrong the reverberation of the accusation would be so destructive, and if you're right it's a total upending of your world." (not an actual quote, just the general idea of his thoughts on her mindset)

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This is my first post, so forgive me if this shows up in a weird place. Anyway, the thing I wanted to share is something I heard on another podcast. (I believe it was Counter Esperanto.) Anyway, the idea that they put forth is that while in Western psychology, there are three states (id, ego, and superego), in Eastern psychology, there's a fourth state - the so-called "Buddha state." This is where personality is stripped away but the true nature remains. The idea is that it's like being in "the zone" where verbal conscious thoughts are gone but people operate on instinct. What they proposed is that Dougie (after Cooper got zapped back into his place) was in the Buddha state. The way they justify this is by looking at what Dougie Coop was able to accomplish - he busted a fraud ring, fought off Ike the Spike, rekindled his marriage, bonded with his son, faced and befriended the Mitchum brothers, etc. The point they made was that perhaps it wasn't that Dougie was some sort of empty zombie, rather he was Cooper in the Buddha state, and while devoid of verbal personality, still moved through the world powerfully. I thought this was really interesting. What do you guys think?

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5 minutes ago, jentownsend said:

This is my first post, so forgive me if this shows up in a weird place. Anyway, the thing I wanted to share is something I heard on another podcast. (I believe it was Counter Esperanto.) Anyway, the idea that they put forth is that while in Western psychology, there are three states (id, ego, and superego), in Eastern psychology, there's a fourth state - the so-called "Buddha state." This is where personality is stripped away but the true nature remains. The idea is that it's like being in "the zone" where verbal conscious thoughts are gone but people operate on instinct. What they proposed is that Dougie (after Cooper got zapped back into his place) was in the Buddha state. The way they justify this is by looking at what Dougie Coop was able to accomplish - he busted a fraud ring, fought off Ike the Spike, rekindled his marriage, bonded with his son, faced and befriended the Mitchum brothers, etc. The point they made was that perhaps it wasn't that Dougie was some sort of empty zombie, rather he was Cooper in the Buddha state, and while devoid of verbal personality, still moved through the world powerfully. I thought this was really interesting. What do you guys think?

 

I think it makes a lot of sense, especially given Lynch's interest in Tibetan Buddhism and the way some of those ideas have been incorporated into the series, both in The Return and in the original seasons.

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I thought so too and it gave me a deepened appreciation of Dougie Coop. Cooper operating in an intuitive Buddha state seems perfectly related to Lynch's connection to transcendental meditation and Tibetan Buddhism in general. I love it.

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7 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

I feel like the interpretation Lynch is going for is that WE ARE ALL TULPAS in a way, since we were all created from a thought.

 

I like this assertion, because it vibes with the Tibetan / Hindu / Bhuddist concepts of Eternal Return. That all consciousness is a dissociated form of the original state of consciousness. That we are all actors in a eternal dance.

 

Oh boy do I love art that invites interpretation like this. Be it LOST, Dark Souls, Blood Borne. It sure is the bee's knees.

 

I like the premise that Dougie Cooper is Buddha mind state Cooper.

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I mean, it also tracks with BOB being 'the evil that men do', I think - he is your id, unshackled.

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Hmmm....  I think Dougiecoop as some kind of enlightened being / bodhisatva is an interesting notion. 

If he was, what would we expect from such a person?  Am a buddhism noob but I would think compassion and detachment...  Not sure how well his being led around and glossolalia match up - while there are plenty of tales of spiritual types withdrawing from the world to find an epiphany of some description, it is generally more literal - meditating in a cave for years or some such, rather than just being away with the fairies.

Have been reading up about some of the more superstitious end of Thai flavours of Buddhism.  Of the stuff I've encountered, I think Dougiecoop's charmed life is maybe closest to the promises of a Sak Yant tattoo or similar protective spell.  (Supposed to provide protection from violent attack and magic, and provide good luck)

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2 hours ago, BonusWavePilot said:

Hmmm....  I think Dougiecoop as some kind of enlightened being / bodhisatva is an interesting notion. 

If he was, what would we expect from such a person?  Am a buddhism noob but I would think compassion and detachment...  Not sure how well his being led around and glossolalia match up - while there are plenty of tales of spiritual types withdrawing from the world to find an epiphany of some description, it is generally more literal - meditating in a cave for years or some such, rather than just being away with the fairies.

Have been reading up about some of the more superstitious end of Thai flavours of Buddhism.  Of the stuff I've encountered, I think Dougiecoop's charmed life is maybe closest to the promises of a Sak Yant tattoo or similar protective spell.  (Supposed to provide protection from violent attack and magic, and provide good luck)

 

I don't know that it helps to think too deeply about how Dougie would fit specifically into any particular religious cosmology, and I'm not specifically familiar with the idea of a "Sak Yant tattoo," but since we're already there (understandably, for sure) --

 

to your point about spiritual types withdrawing to seek an epiphany and @jentownsend 's comment about the buddha-nature,  in the particular example of Dougie, I would consider him in this context not as a seeker having withdrawn to search, and more as someone already enlightened to the point of living the experience in each moment, without effort,  rather than meditating on it or seeking.

 

For the same reason Jesus in the Christian tradition often spoke in parables, some of the most revered teachers in the Eastern religions often spoke obscurely - not just because such vagueness could provide a gateway, but also because the knowledge they had was simply not capable of being put in words. Such an idea could certainly parallel with Dougie's mimicry and lack of deliberate speech. I am no expert either, but I am prone to think of the Zen koans that seek to confuse the mind so as to stop thought entirely, or the Taoist saying that the Tao is an empty vessel (as a vessel that is already full is of no use). Not that he was attempting to teach - simply that he was just being.

 

Regarding The Return in particular, this train of thought makes me wonder if the scenes we have in the first Parts with Dougie and the Giant/Fireman are actually chronologically placed post fork-in-light-socket and immediately before Cooper-awakes-from-coma, especially given the "is this future or is this past?" line. Granted, time in the Lodges seems a bit wibbly-wobbly, if it exists at all, which may make putting things chronologically a self-defeating endeavor, but I do think that particular line was meant more for the audience than for Dougie/Dale.

 

 

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Just to get some last minute wild speculation on the record: I wonder if Audrey's apparent imprisonment/instiutionilation/hypnosis/whatever has something to do with Ben Horne? 

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