Star Wars VII - Open spoilers

[JonCole]

The whole space wizard thing is pretty much one of my favorite things about the super deep EU catalog, because basically Luke spends a lot of time post-Empire just doing normal New Republic stuff but at some point he just becomes a weird nomadic Jedi who learns all kinds of crazy Force-user techniques from sensitives across the galaxy. Some Jedi could manipulate the density of matter, essentially letting them walk through walls and stuff. Mind Walkers could separate their minds from their bodies like ghosts or something. Jacen Solo could basically time travel using the Force.

[Blambo]

Upon further research (I don't know why I keep looking this shit up, please somebody stop me!) the lightwhip doesn't function as a single blade like a lightsaber does. Instead it appears to have a bunch of segmented projectors that create a bunch of mini blades, the result of which is a whip-like thing.

God this is ushering in a new era of Star Wars S&M cosplay to rival "chained Leia"

[Reyturner]

Try using a cheese wire to cut cheese without pulling it taut. It doesn't work. A whip has the same issue.

You clearly have not seen the documentary Appleseed.

[Badfinger]

According to SAM's explanation, they only have to use force to add "weight" to (or at least, to provide the user the, whatever, the skill to use) the lasers during a fight. Either way, having to use the force to make it, but not to use it, means that requiring the force to make it is essentially meaningless. Who cares how it's made? We're watch laser sword fights in space. I'm only interested in what's used to justify how the swords are used, and whether or not the swords are malleable, because if they are, then suddenly they're a whole lot more open to Rad Shit within the awkward lore.

 

I actually meant that Jedi (at least in the New Jedi Order) use the force to CREATE the lightsaber. Without being properly Force'd, the crystals that make the beam don't work or break down in short order. It's still all mythical and magical, but it has Fake Science in there so that you can have a laser sword.

 

 

I'll also be the killjoy that says they didn't like the double bladed lightsaber (Obi Wan should not approve, it's not a dueling, gentleman's weapon), and I think a lightwhip is dumb for reasons I can't explain except I dislike that too.

[Ben X]

I'm okay with the explanation behind lightsabers because it still seems pretty vague. It's the explanation about what the Force is that drove me crazy. Lucas got some Star Trek all over Star Wars when he did that move.

 

He didn't change what the Force is, though, right? He just introduced the idea of microscopic organisms who communicate between us and the Force. Midichlorians aren't the Force.

[SecretAsianMan]

He didn't change what the Force is, though, right? He just introduced the idea of microscopic organisms who communicate between us and the Force. Midichlorians aren't the Force.

 

They don't make up the Force, but the higher your Midi-chlorain count the stronger your connection to the Force.  Basically all he did was introduce a way to empirically measure it rather than the vague notion of "The Force is strong with this one".

[Gormongous]

They don't make up the Force, but the higher your Midi-chlorain count the stronger your connection to the Force.  Basically all he did was introduce a way to empirically measure it rather than the vague notion of "The Force is strong with this one".

 

Which is certainly still a misstep. The moment a fantasy work introduces a way to display magical power empirically, through the length of a wizard's beard or whatever, that's when it begins to deemphasize shows of reputation and of strength as a means of characterization, becoming a weaker-written work as a result.

 

Can you imagine how much cooler it would have been in The Phantom Menace if the power of Anakin's presence, as a being conceived from the Force, made every Jedi that he met react with discomfort, something similar to Kenpachi's reiatsu in Bleach? Nah, instead we watch a blood-sugar test being administered and then are informed explicitly that Anakin is the most powerful Force-user ever. Hooray? Every fucking scene in the prequels is an example of why "Show, don't tell," while not a universal maxim, is still pretty damn important.

[Henroid]

Upon further research (I don't know why I keep looking this shit up, please somebody stop me!) the lightwhip doesn't function as a single blade like a lightsaber does.  Instead it appears to have a bunch of segmented projectors that create a bunch of mini blades, the result of which is a whip-like thing.

 

Oh okay, it actually makes sense now.

[Twig]

I think we can all agree, though, that the longer the beard, the better the wizard. Strangely enough, this also works for dwarves, the most unmagical of all fantasy races.

 

Science has yet to find an answer as to why.

[Henroid]

Has anyone else gone back and watched The Battle of Hoth from The Empire Strikes Back? That movie is 35 years old, but the Battle of Hoth is as fast paced and well shot as any modern day sci-fi film. Maybe even better. JJ Abrams has a pretty high bar to reach in that regard.

[SecretAsianMan]

Which is certainly still a misstep. The moment a fantasy work introduces a way to display magical power empirically, through the length of a wizard's beard or whatever, that's when it begins to deemphasize shows of reputation and of strength as a means of characterization, becoming a weaker-written work as a result.

 

Can you imagine how much cooler it would have been in The Phantom Menace if the power of Anakin's presence, as a being conceived from the Force, made every Jedi that he met react with discomfort, something similar to Kenpachi's reiatsu in Bleach? Nah, instead we watch a blood-sugar test being administered and then are informed explicitly that Anakin is the most powerful Force-user ever. Hooray? Every fucking scene in the prequels is an example of why "Show, don't tell," while not a universal maxim, is still pretty damn important.

 

I agree it was dumb, but I'll also admit I'm a sucker for explanations like that.  I'm the kind of person who can read the "real" reason and have it not ruin the fun.  I totally recognize they're stupid and unnecessary, but part of me likes the weird pseudo-science that gets invented trying to explain inexplicable shit.  I think my favorite example is Cyclops from the X-Men.  The best (by which I mean most fun) explanation of his power I've seen is that he's not generating and shooting lasers on his own, instead his eyes contain tiny interdimensional portals that link to another universe full of a red crystalline energy and every time he opens his eyes he's expelling that energy as a concussive force.  It's pure nonsense but I enjoy the alternate kind of creativity it takes to come up with that crazy of an idea.

[Roderick]

Light saber whips in action:

 

[Griddlelol]

I think we can all agree, though, that the longer the beard, the better the wizard. Strangely enough, this also works for dwarves, the most unmagical of all fantasy races.

 

Science has yet to find an answer as to why.

 

Beardi-chlorians.

 

Obviously.

[Professor Video Games]

The thing with midichlorians is that it adds nothing narratively (arguably it detracts) AND the explanation is totally inadequate. Ok, so some people have these things in their blood that allow them to harness the Force. How and why do these midichlorians help? What are they and where did they come from? Their existence raises more questions than it answers and as far as I know they're never really addressed, so why even bother? This is from the perspective of someone whose Star Wars knowledge is limited solely to the movies and a few video games.

[Twig]

what if they found a way to mass-produce midichlorians and made a brand new clone army that could use the force.

[SecretAsianMan]

what if they found a way to mass-produce midichlorians and made a brand new clone army that could use the force.

 

This actually got me to thinking.  In the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series of games, there's a place called the Valley of the Jedi.  Jedi Knight II has the antagonist using the power of the Valley to grant his followers Force powers.  If the midi-chlorians are the source of a person's connection to the Force, that means that the Valley basically puts a bunch of midi-chlorians into you.

 

Of course the games are no longer "canon" so who knows what's going on.

[Badfinger]

Fuck midichlorians.

[BigJKO]

No, no.. Force midichlorians.

[Mawd]

Which is certainly still a misstep. The moment a fantasy work introduces a way to display magical power empirically, through the length of a wizard's beard or whatever, that's when it begins to deemphasize shows of reputation and of strength as a means of characterization, becoming a weaker-written work as a result.

Hey this is a little off topic but I'm reading The Recluce Saga and it shows an emperical balance between two sources of magic without coming off as a weak work.

Essentially the more order or chaos in the world then the stronger one side or the other will get as an attempt to up a balance. Which is why when champions of each arise neither side truly 'wins' and the true greats from each side must heavily weigh their actions against a context of how that will empower their foes. Also while chaos users are often portrayed as far more evil there are some hints that the wizards chaos or order ties does not make them evil.

Linking back to Star Wars I'd say that these ideas were what strongly drew me to Knights of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

Anyway there's always this talk I balancing the force but that doesn't usually mean more than banishing the Sith because they're bent on the total annihilation of everything, and racism usually.

I wonder how long it is until we get a story from either side that isn't bent on exterminating the other (or without such a strong moral contrast).

Also is anyone following Star Wars Rebels?

It's pretty fun so far. I think the show's missing a street wise antagonist to keep the gang on their toes but I'm hoping that's an escalation that'll come onto the horizon in time.

[Gormongous]

Hey this is a little off topic but I'm reading The Recluce Saga and it shows an emperical balance between two sources of magic without coming off as a weak work.

Essentially the more order or chaos in the world then the stronger one side or the other will get as an attempt to up a balance. Which is why when champions of each arise neither side truly 'wins' and the true greats from each side must heavily weigh their actions against a context of how that will empower their foes. Also while chaos users are often portrayed as far more evil there are some hints that the wizards chaos or order ties does not make them evil.

Linking back to Star Wars I'd say that these ideas were what strongly drew me to Knights of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

Anyway there's always this talk I balancing the force but that doesn't usually mean more than banishing the Sith because they're bent on the total annihilation of everything, and racism usually.

I wonder how long it is until we get a story from either side that isn't bent on exterminating the other (or without such a strong moral contrast).

Oh, I must have misspoke. I was simply saying that when it comes to mystical power in a fictional work, having an entirely accurate metric of that mystical power be both quantifiable and visible to all is a terrible idea, if only because it immediately demotes mystical power below real-life but unquantifiable abilities like intelligence or charisma. Midichlorians are a terrible idea, not just because they're boring and clinical, but because they suggest that it's possible and even practicable to rank every Force user alive empirically by relative power, all in the service of telling the audience that Anakin is really powerful. I don't have much experience reading Modesitt, but I know his good reputation, and I'd certainly trust him more than Lucas with just about anything.

[Mawd]

Oh, I must have misspoke. I was simply saying that when it comes to mystical power in a fictional work, having an entirely accurate metric of that mystical power be both quantifiable and visible to all is a terrible idea, if only because it immediately demotes mystical power below real-life but unquantifiable abilities like intelligence or charisma. Midichlorians are a terrible idea, not just because they're boring and clinical, but because they suggest that it's possible and even practicable to rank every Force user alive empirically by relative power, all in the service of telling the audience that Anakin is really powerful. I don't have much experience reading Modesitt, but I know his good reputation, and I'd certainly trust him more than Lucas with just about anything.

Okay. I'm still kind of cloaked in sleep which is why it's also pretty probable I just misread your question. I agree that's a bad precedent to set just to establish that this Anakin guy is super OP.

After mentioning OP my brain is now thinking in Lords Management terms where the Jedi basically support their Anakin hard carry with everything they have because otherwise "they'll totally just feed".

It certainly feels terrible to view that Yoda is so wise and powerful partially because he has more Force sensitive Plastids than anyone else.

It's also a terrible sacrifice to make for the lore of Anakin's manifest destiny.

[Badfinger]

Hey this is a little off topic but I'm reading The Recluce Saga and it shows an emperical balance between two sources of magic without coming off as a weak work.

Essentially the more order or chaos in the world then the stronger one side or the other will get as an attempt to up a balance. Which is why when champions of each arise neither side truly 'wins' and the true greats from each side must heavily weigh their actions against a context of how that will empower their foes. Also while chaos users are often portrayed as far more evil there are some hints that the wizards chaos or order ties does not make them evil.

 

 

Following you down the off topic rabbit hole, I really, really liked The Recluce Saga until I got about 8 books in and he was just writing literally the same book with different characters over and over. I think there are some extremely interesting ideas in those books, though. I remember having grandiose ideas to the hilarious extreme for game ideas based on those books and the way magic worked in them for a MUD I was playing as a teenager. Named a character after that stuff, too.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Has anyone else gone back and watched The Battle of Hoth from The Empire Strikes Back? That movie is 35 years old, but the Battle of Hoth is as fast paced and well shot as any modern day sci-fi film. Maybe even better. JJ Abrams has a pretty high bar to reach in that regard.

A lot of scenes in the first three Star Wars movies are really masterful. The Battle of Yavin in the first movie, the asteroid field escape in The Empire Strikes Back, the lightsaber duel and the fight on Cloud City at the end of The Empire Strikes Back, the fight on Jabba's sail barge, and the final battle in space/on the ground/inside the Death Star in Return of the Jedi are all really tremendous. They're expertly scored, they're easy to follow, they're exciting, they have peaks and valleys of tension, the stakes are always super clear, and they just generally look pretty great - the claustrophobia of the Death Star's trench; the various sizes of spinning asteroids in the asteroid field; Luke and Vader's lightsabers lighting up the darkness and illuminating the smoke, rendering them in silhouette; the switches from sunlight to darkness when we move from seeing the fight outside the barge to seeing the reactions inside the barge; the crazy number of space ships flying and Ewoks and Stormtroopers at the end... it's all just really great stuff.

Compare this to a lot of movies these days (or any time, really) that aren't as well made, where the music hardly approaches John Williams level, the camera shakes everywhere and you get lose every cut because you don't know what you're looking at, everything is balls to the wall the whole time, you don't really give a shit what people are fighting about, and everything is blue and orange, and it's clear why the Star Wars movies are pretty great. The action scenes in the Indiana Jones films are great for pretty much the same reasons.

[Ben X]

The action scenes in the Indiana Jones films are great for pretty much the same reasons.

 

Sorry to DEEP DIVE on this in the Star Wars thread, but what immediately leapt to mind for me when reading this is the tank battle in Last Crusade. That sequence is so long and yet perfectly sustained, moving from action to comedy to pathos and back to action again. It's got to qualify for one of the best action scenes ever.

[melmer]

The pen is mightier than the sword