Idle Thumbs 119: You, Fisher

[osmosisch]

The torture discussion as applied to information-gathering is always baffling to me in that there is such overwhelming evidence that the reliability of information retrieved from torture is so low that its proponents simply must have either a secondary agenda (ie. revenge, terror), or simply be unaware of the evidence.

Ethics doesn't even enter into it:

http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s11948-004-0011-y.pdf

[Professor Video Games]

I don't think anyone will argue that torture works sometimes. The question is is it more effective than normal interrogation, and that's highly debatable. It's certainly not the case that 100% of the time it quickly yields accurate information, which is how it is portrayed in things like 24 and Splinter Cell. And I think the argument on the podcast is that these portrayals have an effect on the popular perception of it, even though it's completely inaccurate. My in depth research, consisting of googling "does torture work", gives me this article from the Washington Post, which quickly addresses some basic popular notions about torture. The quote at the end ties in with what osmosisch said about it: "The larger problem here, I think," one active CIA officer observed in 2005, "is that this kind of stuff just makes people feel better, even if it doesn't work."

[osmosisch]

The 'sometimes' is so much lower than its public perception that it's staggering

Closer to home for Americans, during the months and years of North Vietnamese

torture of American POWs, Commander James Stockdale estimated that under 5% of

his 400 fellow American airmen succumbed to North Vietnamese demands for antiAmerican propaganda statements.33 These examples expose the bigotry in the

expectation that key enemy terrorists will readily give up their plans and associates

under torture.

The difficulty “from a purely intelligence point of view,”

as noted by Horne, is that “more often than not the collating services are overwhelmed

by a mountain of false information extorted from victims desperate to save themselves

further agony.”

Both U.S. and British judiciaries have struggled for decades with the

overwhelming ill consequences of coercive interrogation, which include false

confessions and false testimony; police deception and manipulation of courts; failure of

systems of oversight; and involvement of organized crime.101 False confessions have

been estimated to occur three to four times more often in homicide cases than other

criminal cases, because of tougher interrogations by police and because of plea

bargains by defendants to avoid the death penalty.

[toblix]

 don't think anyone will argue that torture works sometimes. The question is is it more effective than normal interrogation."

I hope I'm not taking your comment out of context, but I think a better question would be: even if it is more effective than normal interrogation, should we still do it?

[osmosisch]

That's where it becomes more of an ethical question which tend to politicise things; hence the attempts to pre-empt that by removing the (incorrect) assumption that it's more effective.

[clyde]

This discussion reminds me of the relationship between porn and sex. Porn is filmed in such a way to make it look visually stunning, it is sex intended to pleasure a third-party viewer. Many people have difficulty obtaining information about sex and end up using their exposure to pornography as an educational means. But the problem is that many people get no pleasure from porn-sex, pleasurable sex for them is a type that is incredibly boring to watch on a screen.

Action movies and games are framed in such a way to make it look visually stunning, it is a series of actions intended to pleasure a third-party viewer. Many people have difficulty obtaining information about national security methods and end up using their exposure to movies and games as an educational means. But the problem is that the visually stunning series of actions are not effective in the case of actual national security. Effective national security methods are incredibly boring to watch on a screen.

[feelthedarkness]

I think it's kind of easy to tie this back to the original discussion, that torture advocate believe it to be effective, despite evidence to the contrary. First, there is ample evidence that contrary facts often strengthens people's resolve in faulty ideas ("backfire effect" & confirmation bias). Often these division are along political lines, so if the hated group opposes it, it must be right.

 

There is also a perception that those in custody are guilty, because they are in custody, and that they are purely irrational zealots incapable of compassion or reason. There are people in Gitmo who have been cleared of any wrongdoing, but they are still there, because they are there. Media can help shape perceptions in conjunction with a lack of any genuine understanding or contact, and existing worldview. "These animals only understand one thing!" 

[I Saw Dasein]

 Effective national security methods are incredibly boring to watch on a screen.

 

Good point, but I wonder if the success of Papers Please calls that into question. I would definitely want to play the Video game version of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, or really any good, fairly realistic police/spy procedural. 

[Twig]

Dishonored does make me feel bad for killing dudes by virtue of its horrific death animations. I cannot perform that sort of violence in a game and feel good about myself.

That kind of thing doesn't phase me in the slightest and it's always baffling to me that something so cartoonish can make people so squeamish. But I guess that's peoples for you! Everyone's got their own thing.

[sclpls]

Good point, but I wonder if the success of Papers Please calls that into question. I would definitely want to play the Video game version of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, or really any good, fairly realistic police/spy procedural. 

 

Did you back that failed Police Quest reboot Kickstarter? I believe the selling point for that was that the procedural details were going to be very accurate.

[Apelsin]

101 False confessions have

been estimated to occur three to four times more often in homicide cases than other

criminal cases, because of tougher interrogations by police and because of plea

bargains by defendants to avoid the death penalty.

 

The fact that this occurs even without physical torture should call any information gained from torture into question really.

 

There was a controversial case here in Sweden where the police detained and questioned a 20 year old man for about 2 months for the murder of his girlfriend.

At the end of it he started to believe he was mentally insane and that he actually had done it.

 

During that time the real killer had time to go kill another woman.

 

I won't go into any details, but the whole case was just a monumental fuck-up by the local Swedish police who had a chance to arrest the culprit within maybe an hour after the first murder if they had only listened to the witness accounts of the man and his sister. But they were so sure it was him that they didn't even bother.

[Urthman]

isn't batman and the batman games very much like the splinter cell conviction's "torture always works" thing? in fact threatening/touring people for information that is always correct is very common in games

 

That's an interesting example.  The whole "beat up, scare, or threaten the bad guy to make him talk" has been a trope in action movies and superhero comics for a very long time.   It wasn't until I saw Dark Knight that I saw the connection between that trope and the current debates about torture.  Interestingly, in that movie, every time Batman tries to intimidate someone, he fails -- usually because the criminals are more scared of the Joker.  One of the main questions of the movie is whether the Joker can force Batman and the citizens of Gotham to become like him in order to fight him.

 

And that movie sort of ruined the concept of Batman for me.   I can't watch Batman hold a thug upside-down over a ledge, threatening to drop him if he doesn't talk, (or worse, the whole "I'm gonna go to the bad side of town and start beating people up until someone tells me where the Joker is" routine) without being reiminded of the shame of my government waterboarding and forcefeeding prisoners at Guantanamo.  It doesn't seem cool or heroic to me anymore.

[Twig]

Was Batman ever cool? Batman stories are about the villains, or even sometimes the cops or civilians. They're not really about Batman, and the ones that are about Batman are the most boring.

 

Says a guy who hates superhero comics with a fiery passion.

[elmuerte]

_{You forgot a 'not'}

[thestalkinghead]

That's an interesting example.  The whole "beat up, scare, or threaten the bad guy to make him talk" has been a trope in action movies and superhero comics for a very long time.   It wasn't until I saw Dark Knight that I saw the connection between that trope and the current debates about torture.  Interestingly, in that movie, every time Batman tries to intimidate someone, he fails -- usually because the criminals are more scared of the Joker.  One of the main questions of the movie is whether the Joker can force Batman and the citizens of Gotham to become like him in order to fight him.

 

And that movie sort of ruined the concept of Batman for me.   I can't watch Batman hold a thug upside-down over a ledge, threatening to drop him if he doesn't talk, (or worse, the whole "I'm gonna go to the bad side of town and start beating people up until someone tells me where the Joker is" routine) without being reiminded of the shame of my government waterboarding and forcefeeding prisoners at Guantanamo.  It doesn't seem cool or heroic to me anymore.

yeah it was a sort of realisation for me when i thought of batman as an example, because i see batman as an example of how morality and law doesn't always match up, but when you realise that batman tortures people for information, it makes it clear that he isn't the greatest example of morality actually 

[I Saw Dasein]

I think that's basically the point of the Rorsarch character in the Watchmen comics. 

[Gormongous]

I think that's basically the point of the Rorsarch character in the Watchmen comics. 

 

And he's a massive favorite among thousands of people who view him without any irony whatsoever, sadly.

[Twig]

_{You forgot a 'not'}

I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.

[thestalkinghead]

i like Rorschach because he is a psycho not as an idol or role model, but that isn't how i see Batman unless i think about him in the contexts of torture 

[TychoCelchuuu]

i like Rorschach because he is a psycho not as an idol or role model, but that isn't how i see Batman unless i think about him in the contexts of torture

"If I ignore all the torturing this guy does, he seems like a pretty sensible dude!"

[thestalkinghead]

"If I ignore all the torturing this guy does, he seems like a pretty sensible dude!"

yeah, it sucks when it's so clearly stated 

[clyde]

Love Batman, the person; destroy torture, the behavior.

[Problem Machine]

This could actually be a really good Batman comic in the hands of a competent writer. Character growth, all that shit.

[melmer]

http://youtu.be/GrIp3k5pJQM

You are welcome

[tegan]

Was Batman ever cool? Batman stories are about the villains, or even sometimes the cops or civilians. They're not really about Batman, and the ones that are about Batman are the most boring.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMXjtvMAFlI