The Cave: Ron Gilbert's Double Fine Game (A Tim Schafer Production) (Not Double Fine Adventure)

[syntheticgerbil]

@synth, different game. Double Fine Adventure Game is not Ron Gilbert's New Adventure Game .

No you don't.

This is Ron Gilbert's project, which is wholly separate from the Double Fine Adventure.

Whoops, fucked that up. Disregard anything I have said because I'm now just confused that another game was at some point announced, and now I've just been posting in the wrong thread and everything and will figure out the differences at some point when I remember to.

When I said this:

I'm kind of not enjoying this art and the colors honestly, but it's early.

I was in the middle of clicking around this forum thread: http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/6853/ where the lumberjack is running around in the desaturated land of trees. However, I vaguely remember a time (must have been a Thursday...) when I did click on the link in the very first of post of the thread saying to myself, "hmm, interesting," which I realize now that I'm revisiting what the hell I was saying in the first place. Did I just post in the wrong thread? Who was linking me to the Action forums with the Lumberjack? I don't understand.

I'll buy this one too though! Puzzle pieces with doctors and Evan Dickens!

Man I was going somewhere with this but I didn't. There might be a point in there somewhere. It's not "Your fans are trying to tell you things, and you should listen to them, but there is often a disconnect between what they are asking for and what they really want and need, there is a line between hearing suggestions and feedback and taking orders, and they are your fans because they like what you do so trust your judgement even though people are watching!" but that's close. Video games!

Hey no, that was some good reading crammed among this thread of light comments. Totally worth it.

Edited May 11, 2012 by syntheticgerbil

[castorp]

Ok so I'm lazy and didn't bother going beyond the default thread limit to look for the DFA thread, and since it came up here as well:

I haven't read a single thread on the Double Fine Adventure forums. Should I? Will I miss any of the rewards if I don't go there? I don't really care about having early access to the game or documentary -- like Toblix, I'd prefer to experience it all when it's polished and released.

There is an easy way to check whether you might be interested in reading the updates. Chris made one big thread where all the important (meaning: made by actual DF-people) updates are collected. You find it in the 'DFA: From Double Fine and 2 Player Productions' subsection of the 'Private Kickstarter Backers-Only Area' forum. To quote our own Chris Remo on the matter:

This post will contain links to all development-related backer updates, sorted by discipline. We’ll also reply to this thread each time we update the main post, so if you’ve subscribed to the thread you’ll get updated according to your forum preferences. Subscribe to this thread now, and check your subscriptions here! (To keep notifications from ballooning out of control, only DF and 2PP will be able to reply to this thread.)

Don’t forget—unless specifically stated otherwise, nothing depicted in development updates reflects final content that will end up in the game. Just about everything that goes on in game development is subject to change. Even lumberjacks. Especially lumberjacks. In fact, let’s just take lumberjacks off the table entirely.*

*We reserve the right to place lumberjacks on the table, off of it, under it, or in any other position with respect to the table.

I usally read the DF-starter-posts you find via this collecta-thread and then skim it for other DF-input. (And to finally actually answer your question...) The DF-updates are highly interesting, I recommence you read them. One of the latest ones shows new art be Nathan Stapley, very cool!

[BigJKO]

I'll buy this one too though! Puzzle pieces with doctors and Evan Dickens!

What does Evan Dickens have to do with this?

[elmuerte]

I think it looks very interesting, I like the style.

[Ben X]

I was just making a joke of deciding how I feel about the game based on less than a piece of concept art.

Gah, sorry, I turned your "no" around in my head to mean "no, I was being serious".

[Nappi]

Gah, sorry, I turned your "no" around in my head to mean "no, I was being serious".

No problem. I was quite confused by your post (especially the part you quoted) for a while there.

[Chris]

This is absolutely true, but my concern is that they'll be listening to the loudmouths rather than anyone else, because the rest of us have left the forum.

If you're capable of separating worthwhile feedback from less worthwhile feedback, why do you think folks at Double Fine wouldn't be able to? I don't think any of us are going to be thinking "Well, this here is a terrible suggestion, but I don't see any alternatives, so I guess we'll just have to adopt it entirely."

As Tim points out in episode 2 (I think), every game (or any project) has a bunch of people suggesting things that they think would be appropriate to the project--they're the people on the team. Those people are much closer to the creative director/leads than people on forums are, and yet many (most) of their suggestions STILL don't make it into the game, because ultimately the leads are the people who have to make those calls. (Also, most of the leads' ideas won't ultimately make it into the game. The stuff that actually ends up in a game is whittled down enormously from the total volume of ideas/feedback/assets/etc.) That doesn't mean that input isn't crucial and valuable, or that it isn't being taken into account. And obviously there's a massive difference in scale between the development team itself and 90,000 backers. But simply because a lot of suggestions are being made, it doesn't mean the leads on the project are going to abdicate their personal creative responsibility to make the best game they can.

[vimes]

Jake, your post outlines pretty well what skills a game designer should have to be more than just an avid/expert player. It's also a really cool addendum to Chris and Sean's discussion on playtesting from a few weeks ago.

From my experience though, the feedback loop you're describing - where only the devs and the gamers are involved - is probably only found in independent studios though, i.e. one that aren't part of a publisher or whose project is commissioned by one. For non-independent studio, gamers' feedback is rarely just filtered from the design perspective (what's best for the game) and marketing and other political force usually muddles the process; which makes it difficult to take external opinions a fair look.

Anyway, I backed the DoubleFine project because I wanted them to create a game in a context pretty much void of any external pressure. Let them do their thing in a similar way Woody Allen and the Coen's shoot their movies. So, I wish they would just not gives a rat's ass about the fans/backers. At all.

Also, I wonder what genre Gilbert's game will be in. Please, not a Duablo-like

[ThunderPeel2001]

If you're capable of separating worthwhile feedback from less worthwhile feedback, why do you think folks at Double Fine wouldn't be able to? I don't think any of us are going to be thinking "Well, this here is a terrible suggestion, but I don't see any alternatives, so I guess we'll just have to adopt it entirely."

As Tim points out in episode 2 (I think), every game (or any project) has a bunch of people suggesting things that they think would be appropriate to the project--they're the people on the team. Those people are much closer to the creative director/leads than people on forums are, and yet many (most) of their suggestions STILL don't make it into the game, because ultimately the leads are the people who have to make those calls. (Also, most of the leads' ideas won't ultimately make it into the game. The stuff that actually ends up in a game is whittled down enormously from the total volume of ideas/feedback/assets/etc.) That doesn't mean that input isn't crucial and valuable, or that it isn't being taken into account. And obviously there's a massive difference in scale between the development team itself and 90,000 backers. But simply because a lot of suggestions are being made, it doesn't mean the leads on the project are going to abdicate their personal creative responsibility to make the best game they can.

It's not that their feedback isn't "worthwhile" (how can you rate someone's opinion?), it's that 1) People only tend to post when they're unhappy about something. I'm guessing a "silent majority" is happy. 2) Those that try to say, "This looks great -- keep going!", are drowned out by those who complain - and then stop posting. (Like me.)

My concern is that the "personality" of the DF forums is being shaped by the loudest members -- and it's only their opinion that's being represented. It's not that their opinion is "wrong" or not "worthwhile", it's that it doesn't reflect how most of us feel. At least that's my biggest fear

PS - Your thread of Content Excellence is the greatest idea in the universe. Thanks for that! Note: You need to add Episode 2 to it.

[brkl]

Let them do their thing in a similar way Woody Allen and the Coen's shoot their movies. So, I wish they would just not gives a rat's ass about the fans/backers. At all.

That's kind of the opposite of how Schafer presented the project, though. It's all about openness and letting the backers voice their opinion. So I guess you really backed the wrong project if that's what you want :/

[Thrik]

I don't have any worries at all about Double Fine being capable of distinguishing which feedback is worth incorporating. I've hung around no end of official game communities over the years and the amount of insane opinions you see is hilarious, but the developers have always been pretty good at figuring out which issues are genuinely in need of looking at — it very rarely comes down to the 'who shouts loudest' approach we (probably somewhat insultingly) assume developers will use.

[MrHoatzin]

The open source world seems to do quite well (by and large) with millions of cooks in the kitchen and one person to rule them all. I don't doubt they'll figure out what to do and what not to do. I just wish the forums were better behaved, like some sort of old person.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I don't have any worries at all about Double Fine being capable of distinguishing which feedback is worth incorporating. I've hung around no end of official game communities over the years and the amount of insane opinions you see is hilarious, but the developers have always been pretty good at figuring out which issues are genuinely in need of looking at — it very rarely comes down to the 'who shouts loudest' approach we (probably somewhat insultingly) assume developers will use.

Well in the documentary, Tim talks about how the forums are like a member of the team. "What do the forums think about this?", etc. It's true that DF probably know to ignore anything they don't think is right -- I just worry that the "fifth team member" only has the voice of the loudest participants.

Anyways, time will tell.

[Murdoc]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/73950/the-cave-coming-from-ron-gilbert-and-double-fine

Looks alright, I guess, I like the mood they are trying to go for but I'm just not feeling it's entirely successful at selling it like the concept art did... which tends to be the case for a lot of games, hehehe.

[MrHoatzin]

Super Metroid without guns.

[syntheticgerbil]

Hey I'm actually way more excited about this game than the Double Fine Adventure now! This looks neat!

[Nappi]

Very nice! Hopefully.

[elmuerte]

cool

[Raff]

Published by Sega... thread title change request: Marek Bronstring's Cave

[ysbreker]

Published by Sega... thread title change request: Marek Bronstring's Cave

Only Marek doesn't work at Sega anymore.

[Jake]

Only Marek doesn't work at Sega anymore.

Marek Bronstring's Dying Words: The Cave

[Roderick]

This looks like fun and the art style is pretty neat. Hopefully there'll be a demo on steam or somesuch.

[Henroid]

Marek Bronstring's Dying Words: The Cave

Starring Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Holy crap! It looks habsolutely hamazing! Seriously looking forward to this one.

[Henroid]

Super Metroid without guns.

Edit - Let me actually SAY something about this. So, the art had me intrigued when we first learned of a Ron Gilbert game, but all the context is making this way better. A Metroid kind of game just has me hooked automatically. I'm a sucker for that kind of gameplay so I will be on this one for sure.