The Idle Thumbs Lords Management Consortium - Dota 2, LoL, other Lords Managers unite

[osmosisch]

The EU/NA meta scene in LoL pretty much revolves entirely around champion kills, while Asia is much more into straight farming games. But yeah, I agree that the options for controlling a lane are pretty non-existant in LoL.

From the tournaments I've watched lately the opposite is actually true.

[TheLastBaron]

UGHHHH, I just got into a game with Pyrion Flax, the real Pyrion Flax, and someone abandoned at hero select. 

[Laxan]

It was him, because you picked Faceless Void.

[darthbator]

Or PL

[Badfinger]

I actually never said that. Or even implied it, I think? My only objection was with your implication that Dota is poorly designed. To ACTUALLY say something: It might embrace what some people consider bad design, but as a package, it's a fucking masterpiece. It needs and thrives on those allegedly "bad" design decisions, and it's a better game for it. And in the post you quoted there, I was simply listing differences, because osmosisch didn't seem to understand, and then making an admittedly-(in-that-post-even!)-probably-inaccurate judgment on the early-game-skirmish-ness of LoL compared to Dota.

 

Re: jungling: League has buffs, boss monsters. Dota has stacking, pulling. I wouldn't trust anyone who says Dota's jungling is less complicated. It's just a different kind of complicated. And serves a different purpose. Also to answer your question: Singed is pretty much the be-all end-all of League of Legends for me. I like some other dudes, but he is number one by a million miles. I played the game for almost a year before Dota 2 came out, and he was my number one from the moment I first played him (which was probably a couple months in). Also also: I detest jungling in both League and Dota. It's boring. NOT MY CUP OF TEA. AT. ALL.

 

Re: lane control: I made no judgments regarding which is better in that post. But I vastly prefer to have as much control over the situation as possible when I'm playing a game that can be as intensely competitive as League or Dota. You're absolutely, 100% wrong about thinking that denying is absolutely 100% objectively a bad design decision. I don't even know where to begin when people start talking like this. I RETRACT MY PREVIOUS APOLOGY.

 

I don't think, and am pretty sure I have never said (in a not-obviously-jokey manner), that League is a bad game. I just prefer Dota. Why get so insanely defensive? This is exactly what I was talking about with my coworkers. IT'S WEIRD.

 

Jesus Christ all this because I wanted to express my innocent sadness at no longer enjoying League of Legends. If I'd known it was going to snowball into this shit I would've just raved about Tusk's snowball skill instead.

 

I'm not being defensive, man. You're being fantastically defensive. Relax! I'm also not saying DOTA is badly designed, I am saying that I believe it has some objectively bad design decisions. League of Legends also has those. It's just a plain fact. The difference between them is where they are, and how I personally was able to get past them with regard for one game, but was not able to for another. Possibly due to having played one game first.

 

It's also quite weird that you're retracting an apology due to getting way overly defensive. I'm not League of Legends, and you're not DOTA, and I do not work or receive compensation for either game (which I would assume is the same for you). It's a fun hobby and I am trying to enjoy analyzing it. Right now you are a Yankees fan and I am a Red Sox fan (or vice versa if that's to your taste), and you're taking my criticism of the Yankees as a personal affront to your very being and Yankees-ness. I didn't say you said League was bad. I said (very directly) that I was taking an implication from your statements, with the caveat that I could have been misinterpreting, that you thought the additional mechanics made DOTA a deeper game. On the other hand, I think it makes it more up front lots-of-clicking-mechanically complicated without necessarily being deeper. For instance, I did not, at any point, suggest DOTA jungling was less complicated. I said LOL has replaced more camps, paths, and a straight up harder jungle with more buffs and objectives, which can make the map itself be more of a strategic presence in the game than the straight skill of being able to get through the jungle camps.

 

Please don't take this personally, because it's not personal. I truly am attempting to have a discussion, not an argument. I was curious what you LOL lorded because I was interested in how you play, and what you see or saw in the game. Also I only have knowledge of about half a dozen DOTA lords, so asking what you enjoy playing in DOTA would be much less fruitful. You might consider having an actual conversation with your coworkers rather than dismissing them?

 

The fact that most things are the same as DotA 1 isn't some blind follow-through on Valve's part, they're choosing to keep these things like high spell mana cost, denying, the mechanical differences, they're keeping it all because they've chosen not to take the modern approach, and in doing so I feel they're preserving a lot of what makes DotA great.

 

I'm not suggesting Valve is blindly remaking the game without thought, just that by faithfully remaking the game that you get some of the raw edges that made DOTA the insane smash hit that it became, while also retaining the raw edges that make it potentially prohibitive to get into without that War3 background in the user-friendlier 2010s.

[Twig]

I believe it has some objectively bad design decisions.

I find that hard to believe. Especially considering your example of denying, which has a very specific purpose in the overall design of the game. It's not some throw-away aspect that can just be removed willy-nilly without adversely affecting the balance of Dota. It has a purpose, and that purpose is good. Your argument was

They're supposed to be autonomous death minions who willingly throw themselves against each other until death.

1) That's a judgment of function, based on your interpretation of the FLAVOR of the game. It's not really anyone's fault that this kind of judgment happens, because the developers have no choice but to inject that flavor (else gamers would complain that the game is too bland), and obviously it's hard to ignore on the gamer's part, because the flavor is so IN YOUR FACE. But... my point is, where, in the rules of the game, does it state that? Who decided that's what the intent was? Boil the game down to the mechanics, strip out the flavor, and they're not "autonomous death minions". They're objects that move towards the opponent's base, colliding with and destroying each other. The function from there can go in any direction the Game Designer so chooses. That's what I was talking about earlier, when I said: "It's [a] fair [complaint] until you realize that Dota is a competitive game, and not astory-based game (no matter how much flavor Valve has added to it/stolen from the original)."

2) It's strange that you'd hold that judgment so closely, despite the first instance of this functional object BEING Dota where yo CAN deny. If League had been first, your judgment would probably be more legit, because League clearly ONLY has that intention for this specific object.

 

It's also quite weird that you're retracting an apology due to getting way overly defensive.

That was just a dumb joke. Hence the dumb caps. Sorry. ):

 

The rest of that paragraph was very important, though! "Objectively" has a definition that does not even remotely apply to what you're saying. You're making a judgment. You can't just go and say it's objectively bad because you don't like it. That's fucked up, man! Belief. Objectivity. Those two things should never share the same space!

 

For instance, I did not, at any point, suggest DOTA jungling was less complicated.

Huh.

I find that jungling adds a good bit of complexity in the nature of having 4 buff spaces and two boss monsters to control over just rune spots and Roshan.

The implication is pretty obvious to me. You're directly comparing jungling between the two games. If you believe that LoL jungling "adds a good bit of complexity" compared to Dota's "just rune spots and Roshan", well, I don't know man. Can you clarify what exactly you meant by this statement, if not to directly compare the two games, so I have a better understanding of where yo're coming from? 

 

You might consider having an actual conversation with your coworkers rather than dismissing them?

lol

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Also, you're making this quite personal for someone who doesn't want to make it personal.

 

Look, I'm willing to believe you didn't intend to say the things you've said - fuck knows I've been there a million times in my life - but you did say them. ):

[BenLuke]

Guys guys guys.

 

Stop the flamewar plz. :[

 

Really.

[Twig]

I'm not flaming anyone.

 

[bakka bakka bakka]

I love what Valve is allowing tournament organizers to do with tickets. The Premier League 3 ticket comes with a HUD skin and QOP cosmetic items that level up as you watch more matches.

[TheLastBaron]

I have an extra Bounty Hunter Steam card thing is someone is into the cards and wants to trade.

[Twig]

Too bad that QOP set is gross. But then all QOP sets are gross. ):

 

I have an extra Tidehunter card, but that's it. U:

[A Zen Master]

Oh man I've been watching hard supports at the international and I'm really enjoying it.

 

I have a hard time playing when we have no observer wards, when we have no courier and when we're up against some hero with invisibility and noone on my team gets wards so all I do all game is get wards tps and boots.  It wins games like mad as in pub people go invisible and expect it to mean invulnerable.

 

fun stuff

[Twig]

I play Bounty Hunter a lot lately (hard lane solo), and I absolutely expect sentries out the ass. I'm occasionally pleasantly surprised that they never buy any, but for the most part, I hug the tower like a small baby child and pray they push so I can get some sweet, sweet ECKS PEE and maybe enough gold to finish my phase/drums before I start roaming. I literally check their inventories every fifteen seconds, watching for that first sentry purchase/placement, at which point I run, run, run.

[A Zen Master]

I play Bounty Hunter a lot lately (hard lane solo), and I absolutely expect sentries out the ass. I'm occasionally pleasantly surprised that they never buy any, but for the most part, I hug the tower like a small baby child and pray they push so I can get some sweet, sweet ECKS PEE and maybe enough gold to finish my phase/drums before I start roaming. I literally check their inventories every fifteen seconds, watching for that first sentry purchase/placement, at which point I run, run, run.

 

yep.  checking the other team's inventories is such a good idea all the time.  As support I can see if they've got wards and if they've placed wards and can start counterwarding. 

 

You'd be surprised how many bounty hunters/riki/shadowblade users just turn on invis as they're getting hit then just stick around thinking they are invulnerable.  Also people that pick riki and say it's over because the other team is warding    invisibility shouldn't be relied on.

[Dosed]

Hey Fellas and Lady Fellas,

 

I'm just starting to play Dota 2 and I was wondering if anyone would be up for a few matches or so to help me get into the swing of things? I've played a few times with friends but they're not always up for playing at the best of times. 

[Twig]

I just won a game against a Magnus, Witch Doctor, Axe, Puck, and Luna. The reason we won is because our Ursa bought a BKB first. He was smart, and played well.

 

Magnus was mad at the end and said, completely legit, I'm pretty sure, "It's random draft. If we'd have picked a team with hard disables we would've won."

 

The things people say when they're sore about losing.

[Brannigan]

I can't decide which is my favorite part, the heros they had or that they blamed random draft, probably the most fair of the modes.

[Sententia]

Hey Fellas and Lady Fellas,

 

I'm just starting to play Dota 2 and I was wondering if anyone would be up for a few matches or so to help me get into the swing of things? I've played a few times with friends but they're not always up for playing at the best of times. 

 

Same deal here but I'm usually not on, I don't use Steam for anything really right now.  I'd like to get into playing Dota 2 but it's been so long since I played DotA, I'm probably really bad and definitely forgot everything, and also my headset is still broken.  Still, send me a friend invite if you're willing to trudge along with my heavy corpse and two left feet flopping all over the place.  On steam I'm SententiaSC, same on Skype.

 

_{Oh hi Dosed, didn't realize you'd already sent me an invite}

[Sean]

Just making sure you guys know this is here: http://www.idlethumbs.net/dotatoday/

[stinkyPickle]

Hi, good thumbs. Long time listener, first time poster.

 

Are there any ranked LoL teams out there that I could join? Preferably with with a semi/not too serious slant.

 

Cheers.

[natetwoc]

My Summoner name is in my signature feel free to add me.  Got a squad with a couple friends and while some of us have delusions we're probably only semi serious.

Hi, good thumbs. Long time listener, first time poster.

 

Are there any ranked LoL teams out there that I could join? Preferably with with a semi/not too serious slant.

 

Cheers.

[stinkyPickle]

My Summoner name is in my signature feel free to add me.  Got a squad with a couple friends and while some of us have delusions we're probably only semi serious.

Sounds great, will add you next time I'm on.

All men must die.

[Coods]

This might be the first time I will ever pay for anything in a freemium game:

 

[Laxan]

I got it yesterday. I hope you like harmonicas!

[Twig]

It's not very good. The audio quality is garbage.