Life

[Ninety-Three]

Showing up slightly late to the discussion, but I'm completely baffled by the sentiment that the pejorative "crazy" should not be used. It implicitly paints mental illness as negative, but, well, yes? We shouldn't call things gay because it's making "gay" into a pejorative, which is a homophobic thing to do. But crazy is negative. I'm as confused as if people were saying we shouldn't use "stupid".

[Badfinger]

I like you folks a whole bunch and my eyes have been opened and mind enlightened by a lot of the things people say and do around here, but the amount of nitpicking to find the exactly correct conjunction to use conversationally among (from the outside looking in) almost universally like-minded people is worrisome at times.

 

Por exemplo, my usual way to address a group is "you guys", but here among other places has made me mindful that not all persons necessarily wish to be addressed as a guys even though we generally understand it to be a general term. (I'm not really comfortable with "folks" but it's a better alternative perhaps?)

 

In some ways it's an incredibly interesting dynamic, because as open minded and progressive as almost literally everyone is around here, the community itself is quite insular.

 

edit: I edited this post 4 times because I kept thinking of things, which probably serves to water down my initial idea horribly.

[miffy495]

The solution is to move out West. Once you get here they give you a card that specifically allows you to start using "y'all".

[syntheticgerbil]

Hmm, the "you guys" thing is interesting because I say it just because it sounds better, if someone gets offended by it I feel like there's other things to get mad about, so I don't care, they know what I mean anyway.

 

I really should be saying y'all because I live in Texas. A friend of mine not from here says he prefers that phrase because it's all in one syllable.

And to be honest on these last few pages of arguing, I'm pretty much with Zeus, I avoid saying certain things around most people just because I don't want to make them feel bad/offend unless it's something I actually care about. Words specifically I don't. But I'll be damned if I don't consistently use words like "retarded" around my close friends and probably a dozen other offensive things. Honestly, it seems these days I'm the one getting offended more by stuff around these people.

[Mawd]

Showing up slightly late to the discussion, but I'm completely baffled by the sentiment that the pejorative "crazy" should not be used. It implicitly paints mental illness as negative, but, well, yes? We shouldn't call things gay because it's making "gay" into a pejorative, which is a homophobic thing to do. But crazy is negative. I'm as confused as if people were saying we shouldn't use "stupid".

I don't hear politicians being called crazy as much as women. Or well anyone who lets out an extremely emotional reaction to something (when I hear it around women it usually means a guy did something super hurtful, didn't consider or own the effect at all and/or stirred some hateful pot a bit before calling her a bitch and telling anyone near how crazy she is). My point is that its continuously used to completely write someone off and its less often used to write off famous people than people you know IRL. I don't think people treat people described as crazy the same as those called stupid. I think 'crazy' assigns a bit more of a danger element.

 

You guys is fine if its in the right context. Since high school I've been switching it up with gals, y'all, peeps, and just a general 'sup'. Keeps things fresh anyway.

[syntheticgerbil]

Maybe I should start saying "hey ladies!" but not in a drill sergeant type context but more like this:

[Bjorn]

Coffee and wine cocktails?!

 

It's like peanut butter and chocolate, some people like them by themselves, but claim they're even better together. 

 

On, "you guys" I still use some male plural references, but I do make a bigger effort to use neutral plurals as well, which I don't think is a bad thing to get into the habit of. 

 

I use crazy quite a bit still, and probably actually say insane more than I realize.  But I'm not going to defend them as words I should be using, they're some lazy short hand that's left in my vocabulary. 

 

I guess I don't quite get the pushback on those words.  Like, if you describe a politician or a gamergater as "insane" and what you mean is that they are "abhorrent" or "surprisingly ignorant" or "hateful", why not just use those words.  I've seen people describe the Kansas legislature called insane or crazy on an almost daily basis for the last two months.  But it's like a polite euphemism to keep from saying, "Our elected representatives are hateful people, engaged in abhorrent behavior stripping rights from people and are surprisingly ignorant of both history and literature."  Use words like that.  They aren't crazy, they aren't clinically diagnosed with any kind of illness or disorder. 

 

For those who want to use words like crazy, insane or retarded, do you think that there is ever a situation in which that is the MOST accurate word you could be using, or are many times you actually avoiding saying something that is more accurate?  Because that's what I feel like I'm seeing out of my fellow Kansans right now, that it is safer to call someone crazy than it is to call them a hateful bigot. 

 

Edited to add: And I also don't want to paint myself as a saint.  I'm sometimes a horrible fucking person who thinks horrible things, I was raised in a racist and sexist society.  Some of that shit is so ingrained, it's hard not to think it, it's a kneejerk reaction.  And sometimes I say awful shit, but usually only in the company of the lady, because we have an agreement to just let the other one say awful shit sometimes.  But I strive to be more thoughtful about how I communicate, and I just don't think that's a bad goal to have, as an individual or as a culture. 

[SuperBiasedMan]

The reason I don't like using crazy is because it segregates off a large portion of the world as having impaired judgement or ability even though mental illness is a broad and varied concept. Do you consider autism and depression to make people crazy? Some people do, and the word is a way to separate anyone who might be in that category from sensible minded people.

Offending people is bad, but the reason I want an alternative word to saying 'you guys' has more to follow with getting my brain away from assuming male as default. It is only one thing, sure, but if I'm not even going to think about what I'm saying I can hardly claim to be making an effort against my biases.

Amusingly, I just asked about alternatives for guys a few days ago on Twitter and only dudes replied. Clyde offered folks though so I'm running with that.

[Brodie]

Scrubbing words that denigrate the mentally ill from my vocabulary or even just trying not to say 'fuck' and 'shit' all the time doesn't mean I'm walking on eggshells because I'm still a person who uses direct verbal confrontation.

It's a challenge to use more colourful language.

Trust me when I say I don't lose my conversational teeth when I stop calling people crazy.

Megaspel, as an Australasian the word 'cunt' is not divorced from being a female slur. People are just as likely to call a woman a that as they are certain mates as they are people they don't like.

It's use isn't even that widely accepted any more.

It can be standard banter to call your mates a bunch of horrible shit but the 'fun' comes from the fact that those words still have meaning.

Also plenty of words still hurt people around you. Words like stupid or moron may feel at least fifty years divorced from their contexts but plenty of people still feel shitty from other words. You're not always directly interacting with people who will be hurt by your language.

As someone who has had a complicated relationship with the word 'faggot' or the use of 'gay' as a negative I know that using them frequently can hurt plenty of people on the sideline even if it's common to try and state that the words mean arsehole or 'dumb/shit' now. Plenty of the people affected by your language won't directly confront you over your use at the risk of drawing a target on themselves.

Plus for the affected specifically it can be hard to differentiate someone who says retarded or faggot 'recreationally' from someone who sneers at those affected people.

Brodie, yeah it's kind of privileged to use language that won't just offend one person but a whole bunch of marginalised people and to only hold yourself accountable for what you say when someone offended finally pulls you up for that.

It's also not uncommon for the offended person to be told in the same conversation that they shouldn't even be mad because the word "doesn't mean that anymore". Despite the fact that clearly it fucking does because that's still part of the racy appeal of using the word.

Basically it's expecting the offended person to wade into a potential quagmire of a discussion that could may well cause more hurt and also leave a stigma on them in order to receive an apology and the faint promise that next time will be different.

Also 'remember for next time' is pretty self serving. I doubt you mean "I will not use that word again" as much as "I'll try not to say it around you" because you resent scattering eggshells even though one can still find a minefield when they use words that they already know can hurt people and have direct experience with that.

Plenty of people don't want to deal with a potential asshole but they'll still feel hurt about it.

So some person can still find a shitty mark on their day without the offender ever being pulled up for it.

I don't have completely sanitised language. I can speak with intent to offend. But I will try to use language that doesn't contribute to marginalising minorities having known what its like to feel like an isolated and marginalised minority.

--------------------

In other news we're having some trouble with our kitten who has been having a run of digestion problems leading to multiple accidents this week. One of the worst things is that as a long haired cat he's still got crumbs of things in his hair and has had to be quarantined to a single room to avoid tracking poop everywhere.

It's getting me pretty frustrated that I can't interact with the kitten to the degree I want to because it's not clean.

He had vaccinations yesterday so maybe that's what this new thing is. We've also put him on a diet of only biscuits.

 

I feel you are not directly replying to my statement but sort of mixing it in with a lot of other things. The thrust of what I said was 'don't be an asshole on purpose/ try not to be so afraid of communicating that you don't bother/ care enough about what you learn to not be an insensitive jerk in the future.' I then added in the caveat that my opinions are based on my experiences. Nowhere did I advocate for the sort of 'sorry you're offended' conversational hide and seek you seem to be suggesting. Not once did I comment on ableist or sexist language- so be careful putting words, or at least context, into people's mouths. Some people take exception to that sort of thing.

 

Blambo summed it up best- 'Human Empathy First'

 

I'll add 'Give people the benefit of the doubt' 

 

When I hear someone say something borderline*, i'm not going to assume that they are fully aware of all the possible connotations of their word choices, jump to the conclusion that they are deliberately being a jerk and then spin off into the pedantry zone with a lecture about all the possible ways that what they said could be interpreted. I'm going to factor in who they are talking to, the context of that conversation, where it's happening, what I know of their background, what I know of the background of the other people in the group and then I'll make a soft decision about if it's worth it to confront them. If i'm unsure about what someone meant by a statement, i'll ask. If that person cares about the language they use and don't see 'douchebag' as a problem it might be worth explaining why it's offensive to some people. On the other hand, is lecturing grandpa on word choice the hill you want to die on? Really? How about random people you just met that you will never see again? Is it worth it? I tend to believe that it's not.

 

There are an enormous amount of things that I know very little about and I'm going to make mistakes when I first encounter them. That's not going to stop me from being inquisitive, it just means I might occasionally put my foot in my mouth, which, I firmly believe, is OK as long as I don't keep doing it on the same subjects. Everyone makes mistakes and learning something from those mistakes is what matters. If you care about the affect you have on people than you will adjust your vocabulary based on new data, sure, but is has to start with giving a shit. There are plenty of horrible, narrow minded people out there who never set a foot out of bounds when it comes to word choice and still manage to wrap plenty of venom around the horrible ideas that they spray onto the world with their words.

 

 

*something that doesn't immediately signal overt racism, sexism, etc.

 

edit: tone. i might have been being a jerk

[Deadpan]

suddenly you end up with no tools because of an interest in not using hurtful tools.

 

The interest is more in using language that isn't hurtful beyond the intended target. When I insult somebody, I don't want to do so in a way that is hurtful to larger groups. Regardless, there's not really any substance to your suggestion that all insults are based on problematic differences. I already linked this list, but just to illustrate, people across all genders, races, creeds etc. shit and fuck, so those are perfectly okay, even if they might betray a slightly hypocritical attitude towards perfectly natural acts. All people have assholes, and likewise can be assholes at times.

 

Contrary to your experience, I really also have never had problems accidentally or intentionally driving people up the wall with the comparatively mild expletives I use these days. Like reworking the acronym to call gaters "garbage golems." You make it sound like we need special tools to set them off, if that's even all that helpful, where I found that they do a pretty good job getting worked up all by themselves. I mean, have you ever tried just ignoring people online? They get so furious when you show the audacity to not listen to them. This really isn't something that requires all that much effort, I think.

 

so be careful putting words, or at least context, into people's mouths. Some people take exception to that sort of thing.

 

That context was already there via the conversation you responded to, I think. People were talking, mostly, about their own attempts to use more inclusive crass language, and if you saying that it's "not about scrubbing your vocabulary down to only the safest and most universally acceptable words" wasn't intended as a direct response to that, telling people that they were going about this the wrong way, then I don't think you've done a very good job of differentiating it from that.

 

So I'll repeat that, yes, listening to people is a good idea, and that's exactly why I try to follow the guide I linked. People are already telling us how they'd want us to treat them. Activist and advocacy groups have been working for more inclusive language for a long time. I don't have to wait until I mess up and see if somebody feels comfortable correcting me in person.

[Ben X]

I asked for alternatives to "guys" here previously, and the general consensus was "folks" works best.

 

I like the justification for using "douchebag"! Think I'll stick with "arsehole", though.

[Merus]

Showing up slightly late to the discussion, but I'm completely baffled by the sentiment that the pejorative "crazy" should not be used. It implicitly paints mental illness as negative, but, well, yes? We shouldn't call things gay because it's making "gay" into a pejorative, which is a homophobic thing to do. But crazy is negative. I'm as confused as if people were saying we shouldn't use "stupid".

 

So my housemate has schizophrenia. Are you saying that he's lesser than me because he has medication that he takes?

 

Are you saying that it's a valid comparison to compare him to, say, Donald Trump? Because I would violently disagree.

 

Crazy is negative only because what you refer to when you refer to craziness doesn't actually exist outside of early 20th century psychology. That is the problem.

[Mawd]

-snip-

What you said was already mixed into the conversation you were joining. As Deadpan already pointed out. I took the context you were responding to and elaborated.

They don't have to be trying to deliberately be jerks. The point of this conversation is that its sensible to eliminate words that go further than specifically insulting the person you're talking to. It's not pedantry to say that someone shouldn't have to hear a part of their identity referenced as a slur.

Look apparently you're focused on two people arguing at each other and using insults that don't have as much to do with the wider conversation at hand. The context here isn't just the two people having a fight. It's on the people around them that get mad or made to feel like shit because someone's describing someone as a 'spastic autist' or something like that. Someone stepping in and saying "cut that language the fuck out" is not giving a nitpicking pedantry lecture. I don't even have to escalate to swearing like that; based on the context I could come up with any number of short, single sentence ways to get someone to consider how they're talking.

Most people realise that words like retard, spastic, and autist used as an accusatory pejorative are fucking wretched things to say. The point of lists of discriminatory words is that people understand that other parts of their language while not being seen as traditionally high on the insult scale are still discriminatory and can still get under people's skin.

As to a word like douchebag, had you read earlier you may have seen me saying that I do still use it and am currently evaluating its worth because I find that an interesting consideration to make.

Grandpa? Ha. This is about talking to fellow peers. If I have to do some sort of group exercise with someone using shitty language yes I will speak up. I don't really have to lecture them though. A simple "cut that shit out" will do fine. The two grandparents I knew both hated the Japanese. So yes I did at one point (while hosting a couple of cultural exchange students) "die on a hill" while lecturing them.

Horrible people get called out too but I think that's a red herring to this conversation.

At least in the context of this wider conversation you're talking about being reactive in terms of finding out what is and isn't okay to use. If you'd come up with a list of your 'borderline' words then sure we could maybe have a more fruitful discussion.

But my impression within this context that those borderline words are at the least on that list above. In which case the approach is to see with how much one can get away with for how long while using arbitrarily picked list words.

Being proactive about this means you can avoid causing the offence in the first place. Of course not everyone will call you out for it. But you may find that they still do treat you differently for the language you use. Its about being mindful of how words shape perceptions of the user and the receivers.

[tberton]

Showing up slightly late to the discussion, but I'm completely baffled by the sentiment that the pejorative "crazy" should not be used. It implicitly paints mental illness as negative, but, well, yes? We shouldn't call things gay because it's making "gay" into a pejorative, which is a homophobic thing to do. But crazy is negative. I'm as confused as if people were saying we shouldn't use "stupid".

 

The main problem here is that even if crazy were negative (which I think is debatable), it's not specific. People have been called crazy for any number of reasons: Tourette's syndrome, ADD/ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorder, Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder, Anxiety, being gay, being trans, being bi, being queer, being horny, non-conformism.

"Crazy" lumps all those things together and says they're all bad, all indicative of an inferior mental state. That's something that should be avoided.

[Apple Cider]

I say "folks" and "y'all" because while "guys" has been accepted as neutral, it really isn't! It's been hard though because I was raised in New York and "youse guys" is part of my vocabulary.

[Twig]

I had a date planned for last night but then she cancelled. She had a choir rehearsal rescheduled for last night due to two cancelled rehearsals earlier in the week because of weather. The concert is in a few days. Previous to that she had visiting family. It would've been the second date so it's not like there's a huge loss if she's not interested, but she keeps acting interested, I think, and yet it's been about a full month since we first had coffee together. I'm pretty patient when it comes to, like, meeting new people, because I'm pretty terrible at it. But it feels like she's not interested, despite acting like she is.

 

That plus me having to work extra late a few nights last week because project deadline (I mean I did it voluntarily 'cause I wanna get my shit done but still) means last night was butt.

 

That was a long way of saying my life is the same as it has been for years. Bleh.

[Brodie]

What you said was already mixed into the conversation you were joining. As Deadpan already pointed out. I took the context you were responding to and elaborated.

 

 

That context was already there via the conversation you responded to, I think. People were talking, mostly, about their own attempts to use more inclusive crass language, and if you saying that it's "not about scrubbing your vocabulary down to only the safest and most universally acceptable words" wasn't intended as a direct response to that, telling people that they were going about this the wrong way, then I don't think you've done a very good job of differentiating it from that.

 

 

Fair enough, I did walk into the middle of this. My apologies for be being tone deaf.

[Chris]

I think there's a big difference between a word like "gay" and a word like "crazy."

"Gay" is a word that has been adopted by the group it is often used to disparage, and is a neutral term that simply refers to a state of being. It can be used as a pejorative, which is to be avoided because it implicitly paints that group negatively by being used to describe things negatively.

"Crazy" is not the same. Unlike "gay," "crazy" is not a word that should actually be used to describe a group of people with a particular intrinsic commonality. You should not refer to people with mental illness as "crazy," because it is slapdash and negatively tinged. But if you then should not also use "crazy" in OTHER contexts because it HAS been used in those improper contexts, does this then mean that the word is simply stricken from the language among people who want to be respectful? It's hard for me to buy that.

[SecretAsianMan]

The form of y'all around here is yinz, to the point that people will self identify as yinzers.  I personally prefer to use the word everyone.

[tegan]

One kind of fascinating thing about Miramichi (my old hometown) is that the use of the word "lad" as a pronoun. Everyone; regardless of age, status, or gender, was "lad." Sometimes there were "young lads," but mostly it was "that lad" or "those lads" or or "the lads." In this case I guess it would be "you lads."

 

I'm not going to start calling you "you lads."

[Mangela Lansbury]

I think there's a big difference between a word like "gay" and a word like "crazy."

"Gay" is a word that has been adopted by the group it is often used to disparage, and is a neutral term that simply refers to a state of being. It can be used as a pejorative, which is to be avoided because it implicitly paints that group negatively by being used to describe things negatively.

"Crazy" is not the same. Unlike "gay," "crazy" is not a word that should actually be used to describe a group of people with a particular intrinsic commonality. You should not refer to people with mental illness as "crazy," because it is slapdash and negatively tinged. But if you then should not also use "crazy" in OTHER contexts because it HAS been used in those improper contexts, does this then mean that the word is simply stricken from the language among people who want to be respectful? It's hard for me to buy that.

 

In every use of crazy that I can think of off hand (that isn't just blatantly offensive stuff like calling your ex crazy), it's shorthand for something that caused a mental break. Price, quality, or quantity that was so good or bad that it went against your perception of what is possible in reality -- only it didn't really go against your perception of reality, you're just using it as a superlative meaning very good or bad. When you say a game's world is crazy detailed, you don't actually mean that it was so detailed that you lost track of what was real and what wasn't real because of the quality of the game, you just mean that there was an intense attention to detail that you appreciated deeply.

 

I'm not a fan of the word crazy but it's one of those things that I accept is going to be used around me and by me, even though I'm trying not to say it anymore. I don't really think there's a fully respectable way to use the word right now, but if you feel differently then use it however you feel comfortable using it.

[tberton]

The form of y'all around here is yinz, to the point that people will self identify as yinzers.  I personally prefer to use the word everyone.

 

The weirdness surrounding the second-person plural pronoun is one of my favourite aspects of English. "Y'all," "Yous" "You guys" "Yous guys" and apparently "yinz" and "you lads." It's so fascinating to me. It gets especially interesting when the possessive is thrown in there, because you see the hoops people have to jump through in order to make it work. So you get stuff like "your guyses" which is my personal favourite pronoun.

[Badfinger]

The form of y'all around here is yinz, to the point that people will self identify as yinzers.  I personally prefer to use the word everyone.

 

I have a violent negative reaction to that word and its identifiers.

[syntheticgerbil]

With all of this offense, how will we ever be able to rock out to Crazy Train again?

 

Also how will I be able to tell that girl she drives me crazy like no one else?

 

And plus every girl I know is crazy for a sharped dressed man.

[Twig]

I hate that a dumb post I made mostly to vent to myself is at the top of the page. MY LIFE!