Idle Thumbs 190: A Very Spectrum HoloByte Christmas

[BusbyBerkeley]

Oh yeah, serious kudos to whichever kind reader gave them that. It's my favorite board game since getting into the hobby a few years ago, barely beating out Galaxy Trucker because failing in Space Alert is somehow more hilarious.

[feelthedarkness]

I wanted to say Accolade, as a 90s company, but I guess they existed well before the 90s. I loved Test Drive and a few of their off brand adventure titles, specifically Altered Destiny, which is one of those things that is totally unimportant in the grand scheme of things but in retrospect totally shaped my taste in "what alien stuff should be like." It looks like it was heavily inspired by Moebius, but I doubt that it really was at the time. 

[dium]

Was Sean's "d-d-d-d-doot" at the end a bit of Darude - Sandstorm?

 

You know what, nobody needs to answer that.

[Bjorn]

I'm so confused looking at that wall of candy in Notch's house.  Like, what do you do with that?  Surely the vast majority of that candy is going to go stale.  Unless you're trying to become Jabba the Hutt, it's just decoration.  It's just weird to me. 

 

And even if I were some super billionaire, I could have that in my house.  I have terrible impulse control when it comes to sweets.  I'd gain a hundred pounds in a month. 

[SecretAsianMan]

I think Jake was (not so subtly) trying to tell me he's in need of more Nerds Ropes.  Patience Jake.  I also owe Danielle Jr. Mints.

[Jutranjo]

Was Sean's "d-d-d-d-doot" at the end a bit of Darude - Sandstorm?

 

You know what, nobody needs to answer that.

 

No, it was Darude - Epicenter

 

[Dewar]

I'm definitely supportive of Bioware continuing to do this stuff and getting better at it, because as you said it's not an easy choice. There was a reaction that was annoyed at the proportion of non straight romance options. I don't remember what the numbers were but it was pretty ridiculous to make a fuss over. In contrast it is super easy to just walk the line between and present something that's controversial to as few people as possible. (ie If they had one queer romance option then they would probably get some flak for not having more, but it'd be passable to a lot of people) That's why I'm all for it. It's a tough thing to really run with so they ought to get credit for it.

...though it's always possible to do better with this stuff. Like Danielle said on the cast, Bioware has a lack of queer writers. I just think it's definitely a case where you give credit when it seems like a real effort was made and then you can just point out what more can be done too.

EDIT: I forgot to say that they definitely weren't so hot with it before. I played Femshep and the fact that there were more lesbians than gay men didn't seem to come from a well motivated intention. They also did have a bisexual female-only race in the game where their existence is explicitly about... gathering genetic material.

I hope they find some way to ditch that but having a whole playable race change is a tall order even if people weren't going to be pissy about 'SJW censorship'.

 

Personally, my problems with sexuality in Bioware games has more to do with the number of bi-sexual characters with a very laissez faire attitude toward their own preferences. Not because I have anything against bi-sexual folks, but because it feels like Bioware is so obsessed with letting you sleep with whomever you want that you can ply just about any character either way. It feels like you're losing some character depth for the sake of player aggrandizement. I guess, by the same token, it would be nice to have more folks on the team that just weren't interested. Still I recognize that they're making strides that hopefully others will follow, and that representations will hopefully improve as time goes on. Heck it might be better in DA:I, but the Kunari woman I'm playing doesn't have time for that romance nonsense so I haven't explored it that deeply as of yet.

[Korax]

Personally, my problems with sexuality in Bioware games has more to do with the number of bi-sexual characters with a very laissez faire attitude toward their own preferences. Not because I have anything against bi-sexual folks, but because it feels like Bioware is so obsessed with letting you sleep with whomever you want that you can ply just about any character either way. It feels like you're losing some character depth for the sake of player aggrandizement. I guess, by the same token, it would be nice to have more folks on the team that just weren't interested. Still I recognize that they're making strides that hopefully others will follow, and that representations will hopefully improve as time goes on. Heck it might be better in DA:I, but the Kunari woman I'm playing doesn't have time for that romance nonsense so I haven't explored it that deeply as of yet.

 

That's something they addressed with DA:I. While The Iron Bull is bisexual, Sera and Dorian are both explicitly (Bioware used the word "exclusively," which sounds weird) homosexual.

[Dewar]

Ah, well that's good at least. i guess I should play more DA:I then. I was basing most of my comment on DA:O and Mass Effect.

[AndyS]

Personally, my problems with sexuality in Bioware games has more to do with the number of bi-sexual characters with a very laissez faire attitude toward their own preferences. Not because I have anything against bi-sexual folks, but because it feels like Bioware is so obsessed with letting you sleep with whomever you want that you can ply just about any character either way. It feels like you're losing some character depth for the sake of player aggrandizement. I guess, by the same token, it would be nice to have more folks on the team that just weren't interested. Still I recognize that they're making strides that hopefully others will follow, and that representations will hopefully improve as time goes on. Heck it might be better in DA:I, but the Kunari woman I'm playing doesn't have time for that romance nonsense so I haven't explored it that deeply as of yet.

I see you point but personally I don't think I would care so much. Maybe if everyone was bi it would make it less impact full but compared to having one bad option I would rather take that everyone is bi since you only get together with one in a play trough anyway so you wouldn't notice the rest.

But I do get what you are saying and something in between would probably be best.

I'm just speaking as someone who got pretty bummed out in ME:3 when your only (?) homosexual option as a guy was mopey dude who lost his husband (maybe Kaidan too or someone , but I didn't like him either). In that case I would rather have seen that someone like Garrus was bi so you could romance him as a guy. :/ Because in the end I just romanced smart asari woman since no guy who i enjoyed was available. 

But as I said something in between is probably the best approach, or ? What do you think?

[Dewar]

Hmm, I found most of the characters in ME3 to be pretty undesirable I guess. Kaidan is indeed bisexual, but I agree he wasn't much of a catch. I guess I would prefer a fairly equal mix of bisexual, sexually preferenced (unisexual I guess,) and completely uninterested characters. I like the idea of attempting to pursue a character, like flat out having romance options on the chat wheel, but it not working out because the character isn't interested for whatever reason. At the moment, you can generally be assured that if a romance option appears, that you'll be able to drive it to conclusion, which just feels icky to me, like the characters in the game don't really have a choice, which is really a hilarious concept I guess. I guess the bi-sexual thing is really just an extension of that where it feels like my choices as the player are overriding the character's natural sexual preferences.

[mikemariano]

Will anyone ever remember to mention the Idle Thumbs Twitch channel if Danielle isn't there to do so?

[Cbirdsong]

At the moment, you can generally be assured that if a romance option appears, that you'll be able to drive it to conclusion, which just feels icky to me, like the characters in the game don't really have a choice, which is really a hilarious concept I guess. I guess the bi-sexual thing is really just an extension of that where it feels like my choices as the player are overriding the character's natural sexual preferences.

Inquisition addresses this a little bit? The first character I pursued reciprocated, but the options marked with a heart were in almost every companion's conversation wheel, even then ones I've heard wouldn't be into my character for various reasons.

There is something to be said for it being a bit gross, at the same time: http://www.thegia.com/2014/12/19/dragon-age-inquisition-performance-review/

[AndyS]

 Inquisition addresses this a little bit? The first character I pursued reciprocated, but the options marked with a heart where in almost every companion's wheel, even then ones I've heard wouldn't be into my character for various reasons.

There is something to be said for it being a bit gross, at the same time: http://www.thegia.com/2014/12/19/dragon-age-inquisition-performance-review/

Yeah, same here, I was pretty deep in the Bull relationship and asked Vivian if we could start seeing each other (the heart icon) just for kicks and she replied something like - Oh dear no (or something like that). But then again maybe I just hadn't given her enough spell-books :/

 

Interesting read in the link by the way!

[Dewar]

Apologies for my meandering conversation. These things are in my mind a lot as I really love most of Bioware's work (especially Mass Effect, regardless of how it ended) but I don't often have the opportunity to put them on paper. That article I guess gets to the crux of my problem with the game fairly well, with a little bit of my own sexual uncomfortableness mixed in. Also, this PA comic, for a bit more crude commentary: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/12/03

[Gormongous]

Hmm, I found most of the characters in ME3 to be pretty undesirable I guess. Kaidan is indeed bisexual, but I agree he wasn't much of a catch. I guess I would prefer a fairly equal mix of bisexual, sexually preferenced (unisexual I guess,) and completely uninterested characters. I like the idea of attempting to pursue a character, like flat out having romance options on the chat wheel, but it not working out because the character isn't interested for whatever reason. At the moment, you can generally be assured that if a romance option appears, that you'll be able to drive it to conclusion, which just feels icky to me, like the characters in the game don't really have a choice, which is really a hilarious concept I guess. I guess the bi-sexual thing is really just an extension of that where it feels like my choices as the player are overriding the character's natural sexual preferences.

 

It's definitely an extension of the power fantasy, albeit in a different direction that's not often reflected in other video games. This makes me an old man, but I remember in Baldur's Gate 2 that only one of the three romances worked out with a happy ending that kept the couple together. One of the other two was painful, the character involved leaving your party forever in the end, and the other didn't get any sort of resolution until the expansion pack. It's so different from the dynamic in modern Bioware games, which sometimes seems just like selecting your preferred waifu or husbando out of a lineup.

[AndyS]

Hmm, I found most of the characters in ME3 to be pretty undesirable I guess. Kaidan is indeed bisexual, but I agree he wasn't much of a catch. I guess I would prefer a fairly equal mix of bisexual, sexually preferenced (unisexual I guess,) and completely uninterested characters. I like the idea of attempting to pursue a character, like flat out having romance options on the chat wheel, but it not working out because the character isn't interested for whatever reason. At the moment, you can generally be assured that if a romance option appears, that you'll be able to drive it to conclusion, which just feels icky to me, like the characters in the game don't really have a choice, which is really a hilarious concept I guess. I guess the bi-sexual thing is really just an extension of that where it feels like my choices as the player are overriding the character's natural sexual preferences.

Hmm, interesting, I can see how you could feel that way and it's pretty hilarious if you look at it that way but personally I don't really think of it that way. Though as stated if you look at it that way it's pretty creepy / hilarious. Maybe it's because I'm so stoked over being catered to and I never feel like the bad-ass that Bioware often intends you to feel like (I always feel out of character when my guy becomes confident leader guy). So instead of feeling like I alter people for my own ends I'm stuck at the Ah! Sempai noticed me state. hehe

 

That comic was pretty hillarious though

[AndyS]

It's definitely an extension of the power fantasy, albeit in a different direction that's not often reflected in other video games. This makes me an old man, but I remember in Baldur's Gate 2 that only one of the three romances worked out with a happy ending that kept the couple together. One of the other two was painful, the character involved leaving your party forever in the end, and the other didn't get any sort of resolution until the expansion pack. It's so different from the dynamic in modern Bioware games, which sometimes seems just like selecting your preferred waifu or husbando out of a lineup.

Interesting! Yeah I totally agree on the waifu / husbando thing but I guess it's because of the expectations nowadays that every choice will have it's own side quest and animations and writing and that's probably expensive to make. Therefore choosing the outcome that the most people will enjoy because it's to expensive/ time consuming to make the other scenarios?

Where as before you could just have a dialogue tree and when you chose one the guy in your party disappeared and then a screen of text explained why?

But maybe that wasn't the case in Baldur's gate 2?

[Gormongous]

Interesting! Yeah I totally agree on the waifu / husbando thing but I guess it's because of the expectations nowadays that every choice will have it's own side quest and animations and writing and that's probably expensive to make. Therefore choosing the outcome that the most people will enjoy because it's to expensive/ time consuming to make the other scenarios?

Where as before you could just have a dialogue tree and when you chose one the guy in your party disappeared and then a screen of text explained why?

But maybe that wasn't the case in Baldur's gate 2?

 

The romance system in general was really barebones in Baldur's Gate 2. It was basically a series of incidental conversations on a set of timers, based variously on length of time spent in party, other members of the party, and length of time spent in different areas. You'd often wait a half-dozen hours between conversations, all the while unsure if you'd said something wrong that had prematurely ended the romance script, which was easier to do than you'd think. Aerie and Viconia were relatively robust, but Jaheria was famously breakable, relying as it did on a bunch of highly situational triggers that weren't always along the natural flow of play.

 

In short, it was a very unpredictable system that happened almost entirely independent of conscious player choice, which made me resent it as a teenager who wanted to fall in love in a video game but makes me like it as an adult that wouldn't mind the romance options in newer Bioware games to be less of a player-driven thing. Of course, there was conversation in this very episode about how games "teaching" players to wait inevitably has mixed results.

[Problem Machine]

I like the idea of attempting to pursue a character, like flat out having romance options on the chat wheel, but it not working out because the character isn't interested for whatever reason.

I thought Samara was pretty much this way in ME2, but it's entirely possible I missed something.

[SuperBiasedMan]

I thought Samara was pretty much this way in ME2, but it's entirely possible I missed something.

Also Mordin was this way. I tried to romance him and he said "Oh no sorry, I don't do romance."

I think what'd also be great is if the characters made moves on you, even if you didn't instigate a conversation and you just behaved in a way that triggered them wanting to talk to you.

[Badfinger]

Hmm, I found most of the characters in ME3 to be pretty undesirable I guess. Kaidan is indeed bisexual, but I agree he wasn't much of a catch. I guess I would prefer a fairly equal mix of bisexual, sexually preferenced (unisexual I guess,) and completely uninterested characters. I like the idea of attempting to pursue a character, like flat out having romance options on the chat wheel, but it not working out because the character isn't interested for whatever reason. At the moment, you can generally be assured that if a romance option appears, that you'll be able to drive it to conclusion, which just feels icky to me, like the characters in the game don't really have a choice, which is really a hilarious concept I guess. I guess the bi-sexual thing is really just an extension of that where it feels like my choices as the player are overriding the character's natural sexual preferences.

 

I wonder how difficult it would be to make desirable options for everyone, no matter how you wanted to play. For example, "one mopey guy" as the male on male romance can have a lot of conclusions drawn from it, but I think "everyone can kiss!" is an equally undesirable design decision.

 

I guess the answer to my question is "it is very difficult". I'm not even sure something for everyone IS the right answer. The spectrum of sexual preferences certainly should be represented, but I also think having The Strong Type and Bookworm and *sexual stereotype 3* for everyone is probably bad.

 

Did I just write the same thing 2 different ways? I don't think so? Maybe just used the same paragraph to describe different things. It's a confusing conversation.

[Problem Machine]

I think trying to cater to every taste is an ass-backwards approach. The first priority should be representing different kinds of well-drawn characters of different orientations and personalities: Letting the player interact with them in a particular way is far less important.

Incidentally, I'd prefer to see the primary driving factor of attraction between characters be shifted away from the way they interact directly and towards their observable personality. I mean, how you romance the character should be important, but should it be more important than whether you're an asshole to the waiter? From what Chris was talking about with some of the older DA games I gather it has some aspect of this, but I don't know how far they go with it, and it sounds like a lot of romance still boils down to picking your choice and selecting the most seductive options from a wheel menu, rather than trying to be the kind of person your crush would find attractive.

[tberton]

Also Mordin was this way. I tried to romance him and he said "Oh no sorry, I don't do romance."

I think what'd also be great is if the characters made moves on you, even if you didn't instigate a conversation and you just behaved in a way that triggered them wanting to talk to you.

 

That conversation with Mordin was hilarious. It's a super awkward "I like you as a friend" conversation. Mordin is the best damn character.

[Gormongous]

Incidentally, I'd prefer to see the primary driving factor of attraction between characters be shifted away from the way they interact directly and towards their observable personality. I mean, how you romance the character should be important, but should it be more important than whether you're an asshole to the waiter? From what Chris was talking about with some of the older DA games I gather it has some aspect of this, but I don't know how far they go with it, and it sounds like a lot of romance still boils down to picking your choice and selecting the most seductive options from a wheel menu, rather than trying to be the kind of person your crush would find attractive.

 

I remember a brief push towards that type of romance system around 2009-2011, among which the first two Dragon Age games and Alpha Protocol figure prominently. I think the one of the reasons that developers (or at least Bioware) have moved away from it is because the tendency for certain types of players to optimize every system can lead to a miserable style of play, as they struggle to do everything exactly like their beloved would want them to do. In short, having an NPC providing obfuscated evaluation and feedback for gameplay choices is not particularly fun, especially if getting the best romantic "feedback" is not rewarded as an overarching goal of the game.