Feminism

[Gormongous]

i was using stereotypes and tropes as shorthand, you can't expect me to answer the question "what would a woman game be like?" with an actual full working description of the game and its themes, i wasn't imagining some horrible sexist game about hot chicks making out and having a slumber party, i was imagining a more serious game where relationships would be the main focus and as an example of one of the things that might happen was that they ate chocolate, it is other people minds that twisten a short game description into a sexist game

 

He didn't twist your words. It would be one thing if BigJKO were cherry-picking things and taking them out of context, but he's not. Those are complete, standalone statements that you made. You are just refusing to deal with the consequences of saying them.

 

Look, I'm sure you have the best intentions. We all do. But it's time to step back and realize that a girls' video game about "hugs, chocolate, and interior decorating" is just as sexist as a video game about "hot chicks making out and having a slumber party." If you feel you have been misinterpreted in some way, then it's fine to clarify. But if you're saying things that people understand and they just disagree, then maybe you should hold off with calling them "childish" for doing so.

[Zeusthecat]

i didn't insult BigJKO out of nowhere, above that is what he said i said, and i said nothing like that at all, then if you go back a page, he split up two paragraphs i had written into two lines to again claim i said something i didn't say, i am not typing things i don't mean, BigJKO was twisting what i said into his own twisted beliefs

 

I really didn't see it that way. I think he was just trying to point out why people are taking issue with some of the things you are saying because you seem to have a hard time understanding what the problem is with your point of view.

 

I think a lot of people here, myself included, are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but it's kind of gone into weird, unintelligible territory now. I'm sure you mean well but it might be good for you to take a break from the conversation.

 

Edit: what Gormongous said.

[James]

Everyone is harder to relate to than giant burly space marines. They're a simple sterotype that is the easy way out for writters, since pretty much everyone is familar with them (either from movies, games, or even books.) Gaming has yet managed to make a really complicated character, but space marine is pretty much the least complicated.

I'm not convinced that simplicity entails relatability. The life of an ant is pretty simple, but the nature of that experience is completely alien to me. Space marines might have straight-forward motivations and methods of action, but those have basically nothing to do with my own. I'm sure my life shares much more in common with those of most women than it does with those two-dimensional characterizations. Space marines are easily understood, sure, but their experiences, such that they have, hardly resonate with my own.

 

(By the above, I don't mean to disregard the numerous very important ways in which women's lives do differ from my own, and that some facets of female experience might be completely inaccessible to me.)

 

Anyway, I'm not sure I have the energy to continue with where this discussion has ended up.

[thestalkinghead]

@James

actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it"

 

but because we are talking about making male orientated games more female friendly i figured i would say that putting a man in an all (good guy) female cast would make the game more male friendly so i am only saying my desires should dictate what a story "needs" as much as Anita Sarkeesian is with every game she bring into the debate.

 

and although i do try and identify with female characters is just isn't the same as with a male character, i don't think being male is my defining characteristic but there are just so many details that just make it hard identify with women, and also if you are discounting that fact that gender is a thing that affects other things why are we even debating about damsels in distress, why can't women just identify with the male hero?

 

 

@Zeusthecat

 

i totally don't think we should promote old fashioned sexist beliefs and what you are talking about is wrong, but we don't need to get the sexism microscope out to find any little thing that even hints at sexism and magnify it out of proportion eg. woman in hotline miami

 

 

and ok i admit it i don't mix with loads of different people (and i live in england which is just under 50% christian) so maybe my idea of what "most" men think may not be the best gauge but internet trolls aren't a great gauge either

ok i think i should just explain how i think he was totally twisting my words i said:

 

"actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it"

 

maybe i should have also said made games exclusively for homosexual gamers, transexual gamers and every kind of niche market as well but i mean we there should be games for all kinds of people and we shouldn't be afraid to just say "we made a game for women" because there is nothing wrong with making games for specific markets

 

and i said : "there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on"  means there needs to be a point where we can legitimately say "that we have moved on from the days of tying women to train tracks and things like that"

well it will be hard to explain what i mean by men games and women games without using some tropes and stereotypes as examples unless i was going to write a whole essay on it, but as one example of a game for men would be an all out adrenaline fueled action game about manly men doing manly things (like arm wrestling, beer drinking and destroying things) talking manly shit (like making fun of eachother and honor) and throw in a self sacrificial father figure and you have a man game, basically dumb shit that generally only men like (maybe needs more but it's hard to come up with on the spot, but basically gears of war) 

 

now for a woman game (where i will be ripped to shreds but i will try) that would be more about interpersonal relationships and women doing women things (like hugging, chocolate eating and decorating things) and talking woman shit (like complimenting each other and love) throw in a strong, loving but argumentative mother figure and you have a women game, basically dumb shit that generally only women like (i would play that as well and i didn't initially think of it but basically the sims)

 

thats not so say you can't also make gender neutral or less gender bias games as well, but why not just be honest and say this is made for men/women but it's totally cool if both genders play it

 

the highlighted part was main game the game and i admitted the things i choose for things for women do were bad and asked for better suggestion, bearing in mind it is set in a normal street in a normal house with normal women so i tried to pick normal things to do and also match up with the male game, and i don't say "doing women things" in a derogatory way i just mean doing things that people who identify themselves as women would do

 

and it is very rude to chop up a persons quote and use the non contextualised phrases or lines as proof that i am sexist 

[Gormongous]

That's it, I give up. None of the things you've said in this thread are sexist, thestalkinghead. Every other poster has just misunderstood you.

 

Phaedrus out.

[feelthedarkness]

One last time, the things you are suggesting (explicitly gendered games, the types of things in them) are the very same, exact things, the women (and men) of this thread, and video series are fighting against. games are already being made largely as "male" games, and the results have been very negative for women, both socially and professionally. You really need to try listen to what these women are saying and rethink this.

[Argobot]

Sorry guys, I missed a lot of this thread because I was too busy hugging and eating chocolate and having long phone conversations with my mother -- who keeps pestering me about when I'm going to give up my career and start having some children, oh mom. I'm just a normal lady, doing normal lady things.

 

(But seriously, it is hard for me to get super angry about the direction this thread went because there is something ridiculously earnest about thestalkinghead's posts. I'm sorry that you can't grasp why people are getting mad at you.)

[thestalkinghead]

One last time, the things you are suggesting (explicitly gendered games, the types of things in them) are the very same, exact things, the women (and men) of this thread, and video series are fighting against. games are already being made largely as "male" games, and the results have been very negative for women, both socially and professionally. You really need to try listen to what these women are saying and rethink this.

so women don't want games for women?

 

I'm not saying every game that i play should be a male game or even that all games should be specifically targeted i just mean, i would like to play a man game for all it's stupid manliness,  i guess i just don't understand why women wouldn't want a game about woman for women

[thestalkinghead]

Sorry guys, I missed a lot of this thread because I was too busy hugging and eating chocolate and having long phone conversations with my mother -- who keeps pestering me about when I'm going to give up my career and start having some children, oh mom. I'm just a normal lady, doing normal lady things.

 

(But seriously, it is hard for me to get super angry about the direction this thread went because there is something ridiculously earnest about thestalkinghead's posts. I'm sorry that you can't grasp why people are getting mad at you.)

 

i guess i just find male stereotypes funny in a tongue and cheek way i mean "arm wrestling, drinking beer, and destroying stuff" i guess it just didn't translate, i didn't mean all women do is hug, eat chocolate and and argue with their mother/figure it was more a tone setter, which obviously gave the wrong tone

[Patrick R]

Boob Jam already has it's first jam-specific entry*: Sleeping With Boobs.

 

It's pretty simple, but enlightening! Of all the problems I assumed large breasts can cause, I never suspected sleeping would be one of them. I guessed the game exaggerated for comedic effect to make it's point, but a friend of mine assured me that it really can be this much a pain in the ass for bustier ladies to comfortably sleep. 

 

*There is another game, Return to Eden, also listed on the Boob Jam page but that was made for this year's Molyjam and honestly feels only tangentially related to boobs.

[Nachimir]

so women don't want games for women?

 

I almost cried laughing at this.

[Zeusthecat]

thestalkinghead, since you're talking about making games that cater to all of the different stereotypes, do you think it would be appropriate for a game to be made for black people where the point of the game was to eat watermelon and fried chicken, rap, and commit crimes?

[feelthedarkness]

No amount of cajoling or rephrasing is going to change the idea that the problem lies with the current social structure that devalues women in exchange for social, financial, and political dominance. 

[Twig]

thestalkinghead, since you're talking about making games that cater to all of the different stereotypes, do you think it would be appropriate for a game to be made for black people where the point of the game was to eat watermelon and fried chicken, rap, and commit crimes?

Hahaha geezus Zeus.

[thestalkinghead]

thestalkinghead, since you're talking about making games that cater to all of the different stereotypes, do you think it would be appropriate for a game to be made for black people where the point of the game was to eat watermelon and fried chicken, rap, and commit crimes?

 

 i didn't mean POC get racist games, homosexuals get homophobic games and women get chauvinist games, i was more aiming in the opposite direction, i would personally enjoy a man game i like action movies and stuff like that, whatever the race, colour, creed or sexuality  they should get a game they like

[Argobot]

Boob Jam already has it's first jam-specific entry*: Sleeping With Boobs.

 

It's pretty simple, but enlightening! Of all the problems I assumed large breasts can cause, I never suspected sleeping would be one of them. I guessed the game exaggerated for comedic effect to make it's point, but a friend of mine assured me that it really can be this much a pain in the ass for bustier ladies to comfortably sleep. 

 

*There is another game, Return to Eden, also listed on the Boob Jam page but that was made for this year's Molyjam and honestly feels only tangentially related to boobs.

 

I made a Twine game for this, but am a little embarrassed at how cloyingly emotional it seems, so I am afraid to submit it. A lot of the boob-related games I've seen mentioned sound like the they went for the more comedic route, and now I wish I had too.

[Zeusthecat]

 i didn't mean POC get racist games, homosexuals get homophobic games and women get chauvinist games, i was more aiming in the opposite direction, i would personally enjoy a man game i like action movies and stuff like that, whatever the race, colour, creed or sexuality  they should get a game they like

 

Okay, bear with me here. I used that example because of how clear it is that that would be incredibly racist. Of course that game should not be made because it is racist and reinforces racist stereotypes. Now apply that same logic to your example of a game for women that caters to the "woman" stereotype and replace the word "racist" with "sexist".

 

If you still can't see it I don't know what else to say to convince you. I could try to clarify further but I think it should be pretty clear to you, especially based on the negative reaction you got, that your example of a woman game is sexist in a very similar way to my racist game.

 

Edited for grammar.

[feelthedarkness]

Women like action movies and games just fine. The idea is to make things and not treat women like property for male amusement.

[thestalkinghead]

i didn't mean to just make the most sexist scenario possible (which yeah thinking about it without any looking at it from just my own perspective it is) i just have a lifetime of enjoyable manly things i could pull from to make the manly man game fun, but i was trying to think of feminine things that women actually like to do and the best equivalent for arm wrestling, beer drinking and destroying things i could come up with was hugging, chocolate eating and decorating,.

 

i don't know what feminine things i could have put there that would have worked, but as far as i am aware feminism isn't against femininity or feminine women, so a feminine game as a concepts isn't the bad part right?

 

and also the whole time i was considering Sarkeesian's game concept as a woman game because it had all women as the main characters but whatever

[youmeyou]

The entire point of a different perspective, though, is that you're discovering things about another person or a group of people that you did not know before. It's ok to not know.

 

I bet when you though of 'game from a female perspective' or whatever, you didn't imagine it would be about sleep problems caused by having large breasts. And that is the entire point! You're learning something new by playing a boobjam game or the ones I listed previously. And they're not games for women, they're games for anyone and everyone who wants to engage with the material.

[thestalkinghead]

The entire point of a different perspective, though, is that you're discovering things about another person or a group of people that you did not know before. It's ok to not know.

 

I bet when you though of 'game from a female perspective' or whatever, you didn't imagine it would be about sleep problems caused by having large breasts. And that is the entire point! You're learning something new by playing a boobjam game or the ones I listed previously. And they're not games for women, they're games for anyone and everyone who wants to engage with the material.

well actually i didn't click the link because i thought it was a boobies game for men, there are some macho manly stereotypes i don't like as well

[sclpls]

What so many people are objecting to is trying to define "male" and "female" games in this sort of essentialist way, as if gender is imbued with these innate, immutable characteristics.

[juv3nal]

I don't know what feminine things i could have put there that would have worked

 

The point is that the categorization of certain things as being feminine things is fundamentally problematic.

 

1) Who gets to decide what things are feminine and what things aren't? You can't just brush that off and say "let women decide" because they will not necessarily (and often won't) agree with one another.

 

2) if you say "these things are feminine things" you are implying that anything else isn't a feminine thing which is inherently problematic. To take your example:

there are probably going to be some beer drinking, arm wrestling women who are going to be upset because you're inherently implying that they aren't feminine for liking those things more than, say "hugging, chocolate eating and decorating"

 

edit: the point here is not beer drinking, arm wrestling, hugging, chocolate eating, or decorating. The point is that whatever items you put in whatever box is probably problematic for someone. Women, just like men, or people in general are varied, with varied interests.

[thestalkinghead]

What so many people are objecting to is trying to define "male" and "female" games in this sort of essentialist way, as if gender is imbued with these innate, immutable characteristics.

 

i do consider things and actions to have the capacity to be categorized as feminine or masculine, but i don't think something being feminine or masculine is a good or a bad thing it is just a label, i can do feminine things (it's weird chocolate is only feminine if a woman is eating it, chocolate is neutral)  like talking about love while being 100% manly because i am a man, but i would be doing a feminine thing, but i guess what i consider feminine or masculine or neutral could be a problem, and i don't actually need the categories in my life except for if i was talking about feminine masculine things, but i don't think i could just delete the way i think about  and categorize things

 

and dammit what a waste of time i wish i realised that hugs chocolate and decorating could totally derail a thread sooner, sorry people i just didn't think that part was what people were complaining about, and learned that using stereotypes as short hand doesn't save time 

[syntheticgerbil]

Well, I have no interest in a beer-drinking, arm-wrestling games, so it looks like I'm stuck playing the chocolate-eating, hugging games.

I will only play insult arm wrestling. And with that reference to the least popular Monkey Island game, I will remove myself from this thread.

 

Although on the chocolate eating games, I always wanted this to be real as a child:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZOBxIWh594