Bjorn Posted April 22, 2014 I'd actually say the books skew much closer to limited, subjective third person, with each chapter having the interior thoughts of a single character, which completely allows for an unreliable narrator effect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tberton Posted April 22, 2014 I'd actually say the books skew much closer to limited, subjective third person, with each chapter having the interior thoughts of a single character, which completely allows for an unreliable narrator effect. They are definitely third-person limited, but they never show events happening that don't actually happen. People's interpretations differ, but the events are always described as is. The unreliability comes from inner monologues, not outright fabrications. Now, having just re-read the scene in question, it's kind of ambiguous of which way to read it. But, from reading descriptions of the scene in the show, it's definitely a lot more nuanced than straight-up rape. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted April 22, 2014 They are definitely third-person limited, but they never show events happening that don't actually happen. People's interpretations differ, but the events are always described as is. The unreliability comes from inner monologues, not outright fabrications. Now, having just re-read the scene in question, it's kind of ambiguous of which way to read it. But, from reading descriptions of the scene in the show, it's definitely a lot more nuanced than straight-up rape. Not fabrication, but perception. The events can be described, but without Cersei's inner thoughts, the description is tinged from skewing towards Jaime's point of view and thus can't be described as being "objective" to me. You're only getting two-thirds of the story there: Jaime's reaction and a description of the event. Without Cersei's reaction, it's still a subjective scene. Like I said though, I think they did it to be shocking. I'm just willing to buy that the original novel scene is much more ambiguous than I had originally thought. Edited to add: For what it's worth, grrm commented on the scene himself on his blog. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tberton Posted April 22, 2014 I think we're in agreement here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigJKO Posted April 23, 2014 What did everyone think about the director of the episode's thoughts on the scene? It's weird that he describes it as "starts out without consent, but then becomes consensual" because that's not even close to how I saw the scene, even upon second viewing with that in mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted April 23, 2014 I haven't read the books, so I saw the scene 'as is'. Purely on a thematic level, I didn't feel it felt out of place. This show is practically defined by sexploitation and depictions of violence/torture/child abuse of the worst kind. The directorial intent makes it an interesting point to explore, since it deviates from the book, however the event itself didn't stand out as worse than anything else GoT has brought up. It's also an incredibly awkward scene with eerie music playing over it, so in that sense it does acknowledge this is bad stuff, which I think is a point that does have merit. The show may sensationalize the characters here, but at no point does it trivialize the violence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Argobot Posted April 23, 2014 What did everyone think about the director of the episode's thoughts on the scene? It's weird that he describes it as "starts out without consent, but then becomes consensual" because that's not even close to how I saw the scene, even upon second viewing with that in mind. I'm depressingly unsurprised that the director has this viewpoint. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the retrograd way women's relationship to sex is viewed, but it's disgustingly common for people to not have any problem with the "it was unconsensual until I got her to admit she really wanted it deep down" line of thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Problem Machine Posted April 23, 2014 I guess there's like a 5-second rule for rape then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted April 23, 2014 I haven't read the books, so I saw the scene 'as is'. Purely on a thematic level, I didn't feel it felt out of place. This show is practically defined by sexploitation and depictions of violence/torture/child abuse of the worst kind. The directorial intent makes it an interesting point to explore, since it deviates from the book, however the event itself didn't stand out as worse than anything else GoT has brought up. It's also an incredibly awkward scene with eerie music playing over it, so in that sense it does acknowledge this is bad stuff, which I think is a point that does have merit. The show may sensationalize the characters here, but at no point does it trivialize the violence. I don't think anyone is arguing that the scene is particularly egregious, even outside of the setting of Game of Thrones. The criticisms I've read and with which I agree are that the scene is just the latest in many over the course of the show that are spun as even more rapey than the already misogynistic books, in ways that are irrelevant or even detrimental to the plot and characters. Sometimes I wonder if the show is getting worse with this sort of thing because its principal means of promotion, at least in my circle of acquaintances, is through people expressing shock and dismay on Twitter and Facebook. I don't doubt that, were it possible, every episode would feature a Red Wedding, which bums me out, because the Red Wedding wasn't a particularly high point in the novels for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobbyBesar Posted April 24, 2014 The Heat is kind of an interesting case, because as much as women are dismissed in drama, it's even worse in comedy. Bridesmaids (Melissa McCarthy's breakout role, which lead directly to The Heat) was a big deal because it "proved" you could do gross out bro comedy with a female cast. There's still a lot of major issues there though, particularly with body issues. Women can't just be funny, they need to sexy funny or weird funny. See Aidy Bryant on SNL, who gets a disproportionate amount of "weird desperate horny girl" simply because she's plus sized. There are some exceptions, particularly in female produced material, but that's mostly TV stuff, because it's less risky to buck the "accepted wisdom" there. Contrast Tina Fey, who the media rushed to make into a sexy-funny actress with Amy Poehler, who is allowed to just be herself (probably due to less overall exposure). Gauche self-quote to note that this is conveniently illustrated in discussions around Julia Louis-Dreyfus's recent PR push for the latest season of VEEP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted April 25, 2014 Opinion piece on Polygon about Male Privilege in gaming A couple of the points I feel are not necessarily true (like the idea that males are excluded from jokes about the size of their anatomy. I'm sure many a "small dick" insult has been thrown around) but they certainly happen much less often to men than women which is really the point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted April 25, 2014 A running joke amongst several of my friends for awhile was just replying to any male friend who was complaining with a pat on the back and the phrase, "Well, that's what happens when you're a man with a tiny penis." That said, the ratio of comments about male anatomy to female anatomy is probably in the 1:1000 range in online gaming. Edited: Had the ratio backwards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted April 25, 2014 Opinion piece on Polygon about Male Privilege in gaming A couple of the points I feel are not necessarily true (like the idea that males are excluded from jokes about the size of their anatomy. I'm sure many a "small dick" insult has been thrown around) but they certainly happen much less often to men than women which is really the point. A running joke amongst several of my friends for awhile was just replying to any male friend who was complaining with a pat on the back and the phrase, "Well, that's what happens when you're a man with a tiny penis." I think it's funny that male-genitalia insults usually have to be qualified by size, but female-genitalia insults stand on their own, sometimes even making no sense when qualified by size. Anyway, good article, good read! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
syntheticgerbil Posted April 25, 2014 I really despise the art for that article. Why on earth is it so bad? What were they thinking? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeremywc Posted April 26, 2014 So this is a gross thing that actually exists: http://codebabes.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SecretAsianMan Posted April 26, 2014 I am disappointed there's no codehunks.com. I think what disgusts me most about the site (besides, you know, ALL OF IT) is the last point in their "philosophy" 8.If we’ve offended anyone, well, let’s just say there are bigger problems in the world to worry about. Like that's a legitimate excuse for anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted April 26, 2014 Their payment processor dumped them today after being made aware of what services they provide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merus Posted April 26, 2014 So this is a gross thing that actually exists: http://codebabes.com Run by a sex offender, too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted April 26, 2014 … and launched just before a weekend for days of continuous rolling controversy. What uncanny timing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merus Posted April 26, 2014 On the plus side: the tech industry is at a place where this is clearly way outside the Overton window. That's good, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted April 26, 2014 http://codedicks.com Hooray? On the plus side: the tech industry is at a place where this is clearly way outside the Overton window. That's good, right? Indeed. I sometimes wonder if I'm just in a twitter echo-chamber for the most part. It's definitely encouraging that I'm meeting larger groups of people who are vocal about sexist bullshit though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agorman Posted April 26, 2014 Good news: This exists http://codebabies.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bjorn Posted May 9, 2014 So have you all seen the stories about Emily Letts and her abortion video this week? Things like this make me weep for America. And I'm talking about the vile pro-birthers, not Ms. Letts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben X Posted May 17, 2014 What's a good alternative for using "guys" as an informal form of address for a mixed-gender group (eg if I were to start this post with "Hey, need some advice from you guys", referring to everyone)? I refuse to use "peeps". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites