Feminism

[Zeusthecat]

(except the thing is, some feminists, do, in fact, hate men, and they've been given good reason, and that is in their right to do so). 

This statement bothers me. Even if someone has been given "good reason", I don't think it is ever acceptable to hate an entire group of people. And I have to agree with Twig that anybody who honestly thinks an entire group of people should die is indeed a little crazy.

[tegan]

I like how you guys are debating over the moral quandaries of a hypothetical group of people that would have maybe a few hundred members in relation to feminists as a whole. The whole "I'm fine with feminists as long as they don't..." argument is insufferable. It's the "I'm not racist, but..." of feminism. It shows the speaker as being suspicious of a group as a whole for the extremely rare, possibly fictional actions of an extreme subset of that group.

[Bjorn]

I have never met a feminist who wanted all men to die.  I have met misandrists, but in those very few cases, I would not describe those women as feminists, or at least their misandry did not stem from their belief in feminism.  (That's interesting, Firefox spellcheck doesn't know that misandry is a word).

 

On to other topics, the only hospital in Bartlesville, OK apparently directed all doctors that they are no longer allowed to prescribe birth control for the purposes of birth control, because that would violate the Catholic Directives. This article has some interesting stats on the vast numbers of Catholic owned medical facilities in the US. 

[Roderick]

I hesitated to post this earlier as it seemed a little reactionary and circumstantial, but I, too, have never met a single person, online or offline, who wanted to destroy all men. It seems a patent caricature to me. I find it unbelievable people would actually think this is a real sentiment that is out there. In a more moderate way, the whole 'militant' aspect of any group, feminist or otherwise, is also often exaggerated.

[Zeusthecat]

I like how you guys are debating over the moral quandaries of a hypothetical group of people that would have maybe a few hundred members in relation to feminists as a whole. The whole "I'm fine with feminists as long as they don't..." argument is insufferable. It's the "I'm not racist, but..." of feminism. It shows the speaker as being suspicious of a group as a whole for the extremely rare, possibly fictional actions of an extreme subset of that group.

I apologize if I came off that way. My comment was meant to be a general statement about someone hating a group of people.

[Twig]

I like how you guys are debating over the moral quandaries of a hypothetical group of people that would have maybe a few hundred members in relation to feminists as a whole. The whole "I'm fine with feminists as long as they don't..." argument is insufferable. It's the "I'm not racist, but..." of feminism. It shows the speaker as being suspicious of a group as a whole for the extremely rare, possibly fictional actions of an extreme subset of that group.

I'm actually only taking issue with RubixsQube's assertion that it's okay to want half the world to die. I don't think that's okay, unless literally half the world is specifically trying to kill you. Which, in the world we live in, is impossible. In other words, my moral quandary is with RubixsQube, not some hypothetical group. You're actually saying a lot of stuff that no one had said up to the point just before your post! At least in this latest conversation. (Also to be honest I don't even know what everything after the first sentence in your post has to do with the conversation even if we were talking about the hypothetical group.)

[Gormongous]

I hesitated to post this earlier as it seemed a little reactionary and circumstantial, but I, too, have never met a single person, online or offline, who wanted to destroy all men. It seems a patent caricature to me. I find it unbelievable people would actually think this is a real sentiment that is out there. In a more moderate way, the whole 'militant' aspect of any group, feminist or otherwise, is also often exaggerated.

 

I know several women who don't want anything to do with any men ever again, which they sometimes articulate as "I hate/want to kill all men" because they're frustrated that men are everywhere and always expect to be accepted into any group or any conversation. It hurts me, because I don't want to think I'm hated for who I am, but I know that's the experience of so many women, queers, and minorities, so I'm learning to deal with the discomfort from my position of privilege and authority.

[RubixsQube]

I want to apologize for maybe not being very clear in my post. I have met feminists who have had very strong opinions about men. I don't support killing in any means, as I stated, and I don't support a person's desire to kill anyone. However, similar to what Gormongous has said, there are feminists (and, as tegan pointed out, this is a small group compared to the global population of feminists) who support living separately from men. Put it another way, the cross-stitch would say: "make all men disappear." This is not how the majority of feminists think, and I am sorry that I wasn't more clear about this. I know that this is a very different sentiment than kill all the men, and I should have perhaps worded things slightly differently when I was characterizing a group to which I am not a member. 

 

However, echoing Gormongous' post, I understand that I am not accepted into all situations, and I am not automatically given a "pass" because I'm a male feminist. If a group of women want to live in an area they designate as off-limits to men, it is not my right to get upset and think: "well, this is no better than the racists." That's incorrect thinking. Any group can create a safe space for themselves. 

[Zeusthecat]

I want to apologize for maybe not being very clear in my post. I have met feminists who have had very strong opinions about men. I don't support killing in any means, as I stated, and I don't support a person's desire to kill anyone. However, similar to what Gormongous has said, there are feminists (and, as tegan pointed out, this is a small group compared to the global population of feminists) who support living separately from men. Put it another way, the cross-stitch would say: "make all men disappear." This is not how the majority of feminists think, and I am sorry that I wasn't more clear about this. I know that this is a very different sentiment than kill all the men, and I should have perhaps worded things slightly differently when I was characterizing a group to which I am not a member. 

 

However, echoing Gormongous' post, I understand that I am not accepted into all situations, and I am not automatically given a "pass" because I'm a male feminist. If a group of women want to live in an area they designate as off-limits to men, it is not my right to get upset and think: "well, this is no better than the racists." That's incorrect thinking. Any group can create a safe space for themselves. 

 

Thanks for the clarification. Framed that way, I'm completely on-board with what you're saying.

[Merus]

The trick here is that none of these people are actually identifying as a "misandrist" because people usually don't define themselves by what they hate.

[James]

Any group can create a safe space for themselves. 

Should that read "any oppressed group", or something similar? I'd feel pretty uncomfortable about a white-only "safe space", for example.

 

(To be clear: I'm not at all questioning women's right to men-free safe spaces.)

[RubixsQube]

I donno. I see what you're saying, but there are indeed people who want to have white-only spaces, and while I don't support that particular cause, I don't know if I'm allowed to say they can't do that. 

[tegan]

I think it's fair to say that there shouldn't be white-only spaces for much the same reason there aren't soup kitchens for the rich.

[James]

I guess that's pretty much what I was getting at. Anyway, it's beside the point, really. Ignore me.

[Brannigan]

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ac9kui/inside-amy-schumer-a-very-realistic-military-game

 

probably not viewable outside the US.

[tegan]

r/mensrights takes a demographics survey; it turns out to seamlessly conform to every preexisting stereotype of MRAs.

 

[Merus]

Amusing, but it's also fake: the survey was hit by a spambot.

[Stuart]

[clyde]

So does anyone else get Fus-Ro-Dah dragon-shout vibes from the official vocal performance of "Let it go"? When she does the "Here I stand!" part, I'm like "If she was singing this at a wall of riot-police, I don't think they would be able to move her."

[Stuart]

So does anyone else get Fus-Ro-Dah dragon-shout vibes from the official vocal performance of "Let it go"? When she does the "Here I stand!" part, I'm like "If she was singing this at a wall of riot-police, I don't think they would be able to move her."

 

This reminds me, was Frozen good? I mean, I know it got good reviews and all, but it seemed because it was a return to form of old Disney, which tbh I don't like in the context of a CGI animated film. But I also heard it does positive things when it comes to characterizing its female leads, so that's cool. I guess this question is more suited for the movie recommendations thread.

[Twig]

It's good except it's all about white people because Disney hates non-whites.

 

(I guess it's unwise to make dumb jokes based on random internet comments when I've never seen the movie, but well, I'm the worst, so why stop there.)

[Bjorn]

This reminds me, was Frozen good? I mean, I know it got good reviews and all, but it seemed because it was a return to form of old Disney, which tbh I don't like in the context of a CGI animated film. But I also heard it does positive things when it comes to characterizing its female leads, so that's cool. I guess this question is more suited for the movie recommendations thread.

 

Given the things I've heard about how it handles its female characters, seems appropriate here.  But I haven't seen it.  My wife did, she liked what it was trying to do, but ultimately wasn't "wowed" by it.

[Zeusthecat]

This reminds me, was Frozen good? I mean, I know it got good reviews and all, but it seemed because it was a return to form of old Disney, which tbh I don't like in the context of a CGI animated film. But I also heard it does positive things when it comes to characterizing its female leads, so that's cool. I guess this question is more suited for the movie recommendations thread.

 

My daughter got this movie and I thought it was pretty great until the first time they broke out into song and dance. I tried to continue watching but those musical sequences just kept yanking me back out of the experience and I couldn't take it any more. Basically, I'm one of those assholes who has a deep disdain for musicals (unless the title of the movie is "Lion King").

[Twig]

Oh man I love most Disney movies in part because they're such good musicals. ):

 

I could still watch The Little Mermaid TODAY and enjoy it.

 

And now I want to watch The Lion King.

[clyde]

This reminds me, was Frozen good? I mean, I know it got good reviews and all, but it seemed because it was a return to form of old Disney, which tbh I don't like in the context of a CGI animated film. But I also heard it does positive things when it comes to characterizing its female leads, so that's cool. I guess this question is more suited for the movie recommendations thread.

 

It's a pretty good as a Disney animated film. It's completely formulaic, but they subvert some expectations (for instance, the villain isn't the focal challenge for the protagonist). I laughed a few times and really enjoyed the musical performances. There is also a really cool scene that is just fractal eye-candy. I would recommend it for cultural relevance but if you are looking for something that makes you think, look elsewhere.