The Great Debate: Legalization

[miffy495]

With regards to alcohol, 1) ~Tradition!~, it's part of religion and thus "normal" and 2) my parents raised us in a way that alcohol was a food. It was normal, and not illicit. I could have had a glass of wine with dinner or a beer watching football if I'd wanted them in my teens, which I declined. I didn't drink in college basically right up until my 21st, and I certainly didn't binge.

 

Leaving aside the religion angle (because NO religions use mood-altering substances, right guys?), you just described my the way my parents were with weed (and also alcohol) around the house when I was growing up. Do you then think that having it normalized in that way would help reduce levels of abuse, or is there something about pot that makes it different?

 

Job-related Disclaimer: This is purely a thought experiment. I am confirming nothing about my own choices after growing up in this house.

[TheLastBaron]

Leaving aside the religion angle (because NO religions use mood-altering substances, right guys?), you just described my the way my parents were with weed (and also alcohol) around the house when I was growing up. Do you then think that having it normalized in that way would help reduce levels of abuse, or is there something about pot that makes it different?

 

Job-related Disclaimer: This is purely a thought experiment. I am confirming nothing about my own choices after growing up in this house.

 

Would you self identify as a "real chill bro"?

[Merus]

It definitely carries over to alcohol for me - I greatly dislike anything that fucks with your brain's perception in unexpected ways. I'll have a drink, because I'm Australian, but I'll only have at most two drinks because any more and I stop having fun. Alcohol does take the edge off anxieties, which is probably dangerous but as we became increasingly safer our anxieties became more and more out of whack so I guess that's helpful.

 

I spent a few years at university watching others drink without drinking myself, because I was obviously underage and everyone knew it, and what I saw from the outside were people being oblivious dicks and regretting getting drunk afterwards. My mum's told the story of how she had to find new friends after her existing friends got into pot, went to parties, and sat around doing and saying nothing except what a good time they were having. Obviously a different scenario there, but it does make sense that having your perception altered would drive you inward a little bit.

[Architecture]

Well all right then. (I'd probably vape in this hypothetical world where it's legal for me to get weed where I currently live (haha I imagine Texas is going to be pretty near the end of the list of states that legalize weed, although I guess I've not done much research on it).)

It's decriminalized in Travis County (which is where Austin resides).

[Bjorn]

No, it doesn't carry over to alcohol for me.  My biggest problem with personally using pot is just that it makes me super sleepy, in no time.  Tried it several times in my early 20s, several different *types* and the exact same thing every time.  I just wanted to take a nap.  That's no fun at all.  And I don't like the smell at all. 

 

I certainly went through a binge drinking phase back in my 20s, though nowadays it's more of the go out and have a drink or two and be done.  Probably once a year I do get fall down drunk, but it's always at my oldest friend's house.  We get hammered together, reminiscing about our youth, the people who are already gone entirely too young, telling each other stories we've both heard a hundred times and a bunch of other stuff. 

[SecretAsianMan]

Alcohol is a weird case with me.  I have a fast metabolism but a low tolerance.  The result of this combination is the range in which I actually enjoy myself is very small.  I either don't have enough to do anything and I just process it all out, or I have way too much and get sick.  Neither is particularly fun so I mostly just don't bother.  I also don't like the way it tastes at all which is why I say I can merely tolerate it.  I will say this though, it does make me better at some things.  I tend to overthink things a lot and sometimes having a drink helps to quiet my thoughts enough that I get better at stuff (shooting pool for example).

 

 

Dude, this is a thread about weed. If there is one thing I have learned about conversations surrounding weed, it is that all stories are relevant to that discussion. And yes, I know that that makes absolutely zero sense.

 

Well since you asked (sort of) one story I have is from Taiwan.  My dad was there representing his company at a new factory opening.  The night it opened, they had a party to celebrate.  A bunch of tables were set up outside and each one had a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue (one of which I still have).  My dad was basically the boss that night and we went around to various tables talking to several of the employees.  At each table they would offer to toast with him.  In Chinese culture it's considered rude to refuse such an offer (almost to the point of taboo) but my dad doesn't really drink at all.  Instead, I took the drinks.  I don't exactly remember that night very well but I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 shots in an hour.  Needless to say I got very sick that night but it was still pretty fun.

[Twig]

Man I've never been a dick while drunk (at least, not more than usual!) or regretted being drunk, except for two times and that was super early on when I didn't really know how much I could handle. I've also never seen any of my friends do anything like that. I guess I just got lucky. Granted, I only really drink like that maybe five times a year max, and... that only happened one year.

[Spenny]

I've really shaped my group of friends around people I like to get drunk with, and it feels weird when I think about it. I sometimes wonder do I only like these people because they'll put up with and forgive a shit faced Spenny? It's not true, we've had more than enough sober experiences and been friends long enough that it's friendship as true as I know. There are just weird thoughts that can hit you as you're paralyzed hungover in bed at 1pm on a Sunday. 

[Twig]

Yeah actually all of my closest friends are also those friends with whom I'd drink heavily pretty much anytime, but we don't necessarily do it all the time. And now I'm in a new city and have to find new drinking buddies. ):

[miffy495]

Would you self identify as a "real chill bro"?

 

Since it's now come up over two pages, fine. I would probably self-identify as a "decent guy" or yeah, a "relaxed dude" because I pride myself on being able to make whatever situation I'm in more comfortable for others involved. As for booze, it was not until last summer when I was coming off the most stressful six months of my life that I got blackout drunk for the first time (I was 26 at the time, am now 27). Not that I'd never been drunk, or even VERY drunk, but I'd always been able to remember. It was a legitimately scary experience when I reflect on losing control of myself in that way for the first time in my life and definitely made me take some new things into perspective. I worry far more about alcohol consumption than other substances as a result.

[Bjorn]

Kansas legislature held an informational hearing on medical marijuana today, which getting at least medical use approved is an issue that two former co-workers of mine have busting their ass on for the last couple of years.  I can't imagine it passing this year though.  The Kansas state houses have been a mess as long as I've been paying attention to them (one year they attempted to pass a sin tax on sex toys to financially punish people who bought them and in the same month approved state owned casino's because gambling is good old, profitable American fun). 

[elvaq]

Why is no one mentioning that weed making you sleepy is like, super good for people with insomnia? It's helped me a lot through some rough spots of trouble sleeping (don't want to take ambien or other pills)

[Griddlelol]

Don't want to take ambien or other pills

 

Why? It seems completely irrational that you'd rather take weed than a drug that has to go through FDA approval. 

[osmosisch]

It could actually be rational if he's taken the time and effort to check the side-effects of the various medicines under consideration (including MJ).

[Ozzie]

I only have a couple experiences with smoking weed. I smoked it two times in last August at Finkenbach Festival and once this New Year's. I can't say I felt anything from it in August, but I think at New Year's it helped me relax, which I consider to be a hugely benificial effect on my mind since I feel anxious a lot of times. At that time I was at a party were I felt estranged from almost everybody. So its effect was only positive for me.

Alcohol on the other hand has a much more destructive effect in my estimation. At said festival I slept in a tent with some other guy who one night got drunk on half a bottle Jägermeister and constantly spitted puke across the tent. The next day he looked pale like a corpse and did nothing but sit around in his car. And at New Year's a friend got so drunk that he threw up multiple times. I remember multiple alcohol poisonings from school days, oh and my father, after getting drunk, walking aimlessly along field paths and through villages until the next morning some concerned and kind woman picked him up and brought him home.

Now, of course, these are the results of the attitudes with which alcohol is consumed, and the amount of it. I was never drunk and drink only socially. Still, I don't think you can go as overboard with weed, though I also remember two guys from boarding school days that smoked themselves brainless. Their reflexes suffered a lot, but also their capability to grasp a clear thought. They became dumber in my estimation.

Well, maybe they only got hold of the bad kind of weed. I can't say I'm an expert on that ground. ^^

[Merus]

It could actually be rational if he's taken the time and effort to check the side-effects of the various medicines under consideration (including MJ).

 

and also is a trained medical professional

 

It's not like they make them take 5 years just to pull up the rope ladder, that shit's complicated and reading one study - or indeed the side-effects provided by the regulatory agency, which can be out of date - is not sufficient to judge whether a course of treatment is going to be the most effective you have access to. (This is complicated somewhat by how medicine in America is more expensive - obviously if a good medicine is out of your price range and weed isn't, and weed'll work ok, then weed's better than no treatment which is what you'd be looking at.)

[Badfinger]

Leaving aside the religion angle (because NO religions use mood-altering substances, right guys?), you just described my the way my parents were with weed (and also alcohol) around the house when I was growing up. Do you then think that having it normalized in that way would help reduce levels of abuse, or is there something about pot that makes it different?

 

Job-related Disclaimer: This is purely a thought experiment. I am confirming nothing about my own choices after growing up in this house.

 

With the tradition comment I much more meant it has an incredible head start on momentum. I really don't know what the parenthetical comment is all about, actually.

 

The difference between pot and alcohol is it's not a food. With that said, normalization and acceptance radically help integrate many or most things.

[Spenny]

 Still, I don't think you can go as overboard with weed, though I also remember two guys from boarding school days that smoked themselves brainless. Their reflexes suffered a lot, but also their capability to grasp a clear thought. They became dumber in my estimation.

 

We'd be going anecdote vs anecdote here, but I don't really feel like you can truly smoke yourself stupid, but if you have a tendency to be dumb, lazy, and bad at school then weed sure does enable those traits. 

[Mangela Lansbury]

Why? It seems completely irrational that you'd rather take weed than a drug that has to go through FDA approval.

For me, at least, Ambien isn't a pleasant experience. I hear I was yelling about people breaking into my apartment once when I was on it, but that's just a severe example of the sleepwalking that happened almost every night I was on it. Weed just makes me fall asleep fast and sleep through the night.

I tried Ambien first, but it didn't work so I went for something else.

[Zeusthecat]

For me, at least, Ambien isn't a pleasant experience. I hear I was yelling about people breaking into my apartment once when I was on it, but that's just a severe example of the sleepwalking that happened almost every night I was on it. Weed just makes me fall asleep fast and sleep through the night.

I tried Ambien first, but it didn't work so I went for something else.

 

I think it is worth pointing out there is a long list of side effects for most (all?) prescription sleep aids, and death is often one of them. There are also obviously some side effects with using MJ instead but in my experience (and in my wife's experience since she has actually used both) the side effects from MJ are far less severe and death is certainly not one of them. Unfortunately, even where it is legal for medical use, you still can't get MJ prescribed to help with insomnia but it is pretty well documented that MJ (especially Indica dominant strains) is a very effective and fairly safe sleep aid.

[Griddlelol]

and also is a trained medical professional

 

It's not like they make them take 5 years just to pull up the rope ladder, that shit's complicated and reading one study - or indeed the side-effects provided by the regulatory agency, which can be out of date - is not sufficient to judge whether a course of treatment is going to be the most effective you have access to. (This is complicated somewhat by how medicine in America is more expensive - obviously if a good medicine is out of your price range and weed isn't, and weed'll work ok, then weed's better than no treatment which is what you'd be looking at.)

Pretty much this. Not to mention the dangers of not knowing what the hell you're actually buying when you buy weed. Of course you can grow it yourself.

 

I tried Ambien first, but it didn't work so I went for something else.

That makes sense, but I'm sure there are other FDA approved drugs that you could also try.

 

I think it is worth pointing out there is a long list of side effects for most (all?) prescription sleep aids, and death is often one of them.

 

Yeah, I guess that's true. But the LD50 (50% of people will die at this dose) is 650mg/kg. I believe each ambien tab is 5mgs, meaning the average male will need thousands of tablets to die. 

 

To put it into perspective; caffeine has an LD50 of 200mg/kg, THC (not weed, the active substance) has an LD50 of 42mg/kg.

 

Saying "death" is a side effect of something is incredibly misleading, as death is a side effect of anything in a high enough dose over a short enough time.

[Zeusthecat]

Saying "death" is a side effect of something is incredibly misleading, as death is a side effect of anything in a high enough dose over a short enough time.

 

Kind of. It is physically impossible to consume enough weed to actually overdose and die. It has never happened. And to add to that, there is no drug that, when mixed with weed, becomes a fatal combination. Ambien, and other drugs like it on the other hand? You can overdose and people have overdosed on it and it can become toxic when mixed with other drugs.

 

And I think people are kind of overselling this whole "FDA approval" thing. Just because something is FDA approved doesn't mean it's safe or that it's even any safer than something that isn't FDA approved. That whole system is kind of whacked and is easily influenced by special interest groups.

 

Consider the countless drugs produced by big pharmaceutical companies that were FDA approved and later taken off of the market because of the deaths and other horrible side effects they caused. Then think of all the resulting class action lawsuits. There are countless examples of this.

[Twig]

Kind of. It is physically impossible to consume enough weed to actually overdose and die. It has never happened. And to add to that, there is no drug that, when mixed with weed, becomes a fatal combination.

I'm generally on your side of things, Zeus, but when you say things like this it raises my eyebrows JUST A BIT. It's one of those "sounds too good to be true" things. Do you have any science to back this up? Has anyone even DONE any research on this? Seems like, given the overwhelming illegality of it up until recently, it's not something anyone would've gone into in any great depth.

[Zeusthecat]

I'm generally on your side of things, Zeus, but when you say things like this it raises my eyebrows JUST A BIT. It's one of those "sounds too good to be true" things. Do you have any science to back this up? Has anyone even DONE any research on this? Seems like, given the overwhelming illegality of it up until recently, it's not something anyone would've gone into in any great depth.

 

I have looked this up in the past and to my knowledge there has never been an account of anyone overdosing from weed or mixing it with another drug resulting in a fatal concoction. Googling it now and I am still finding no accounts of this ever happening.

 

Yes it might sound too good to be true. But do the research and you'll find that this is definitely one of the safer substances out there and far safer than many and probably most prescription drugs. People have been using it for thousands of years and it is not illegal because it is unsafe. It is illegal largely because cannabis was a threat to the lumber and cotton industries.

[Twig]

I mean, sure, I understand that it's not illegal because it's unsafe. But the illegality of it does contribute significantly to a lack of research, wouldn't you agree? Given that, I find it hard to believe all of these things at face value. I think I'm on board with the "can't OD" thing, just because I've looked into it myself, and even sans research, that sort of thing would show up, obviously.

 

But the "not dangerous when mixed with other drugs" thing is what's holding me back. I mean, I don't think that's a valid reason to keep it illegal, or not do it, not by any stretch, but BUT I don't think you can say that without properly researching it, right?