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Twig

The Great Debate: Legalization

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He could, that's why I made sure to bold smoking, and to be fair, smoking is probably the most used way to consume cannabis. 

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I was under the impression that the non-legality of cannabis has hindered a lot of potential research into its effects and possible medical uses, at least in Australia. My brother has severe epilepsy which hasn't responded to any of the medication he's been prescribed for the past 19 years. The story about the 5 year old girl is amazing, but what would be better is if proper scientific research on marijuana was even allowed to take place. Strictly speaking, 'Schedule 9' drugs may be used for research purposes in Australia, but we're still lagging behind countries like the US and UK when it comes to actual clinical trials because anti-cannabis views are so entrenched amongst many politicians.

 

The intersection between the criminal justice-prison industrial complex, racism, poverty, and whole bunch of other stuff, makes for a good argument for decriminalisation. But if I'm being realistic with my expectations (and by that I mean pessimistic), I think the political focus will just shift to some other thing that can be exploited to preserve the fucked up status quo of our societies if cannabis does become legal.

 

It also boggles my mind that much of 'mainstream' US politics is so strongly anti-'gun control' whilst simultaneously being pro-'cannabis prohibition'.

(If this gets spun off into a separate topic about gun control, i'm blaming Zeus :P)

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I don't like weed.  I don't like the way it looks, I don't like the way it smells, I don't like the way it tastes.  I think its gross and want nothing to do with it (although I would use products made from hemp such as paper or clothing so long as they in no way reminded me what they were made from).

 

All that said, I'm totally in favor of the legalization.  And that's all I have to say on the subject.

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"Legalization" is really broad. What are we specifically in favor or opposed to legalizing?

 

My actual question: if we legalize the sale, possession, and personal use of marijuana (which is what I am like 95% sure this question is?), how does that affect any of the stuff that's not just one smoking/eating it, Zeus? This is not a rhetorical question. If we legalize smoking marijuana, do we actually get any of that other stuff? It FEELS like no?

 

I am basically fine with decriminalizing marijuana, but I think it's nasty.

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Two of the things you're saying are benefits to hemp are that it can be used in place of lumber, and that it has medical uses. The hemp plant stripped of cannabinoids is useful only for the former, but the question about legalising cannabis is almost entirely focused around cannabinoids, not the other properties of the plant. I can't imagine anyone would object to genetically-modified hemp plants being used as a fibre, so it's hardly a benefit of legalising cannabis.

 

At least here in the US these are inextricably tied together. The fact that cannabis is classified as a schedule 1 narcotic means that it is illegal to grow cannabis at all, even if it is of the variety that has little to no THC (which means all of our hemp products typically have to be imported). So at least for us, these are all important issues to consider together to build the case for why cannabis should not be classified as a schedule 1 narcotic.

 

As for medical use, there is a lot of really compelling data to suggest that, yes, it really could be a game changer. Some of the data is pretty definitive, such as its benefits for treating epilepsy, and some of it requires further research. But as long as it is classified as a schedule 1 narcotic, there are limits to how effectively it can be researched. Plus I think it is important to consider that using MJ for medical use is typically much safer and has much fewer side effects than a lot of the prescription drugs out there.

 

As for straight up legalizing for recreational use, why not? Consider that alcohol and tobacco are legal and both do far more harm to the human body than MJ does. In fact, I am not aware of there ever being a single reported death caused by MJ use (unless you count someone having some kind of accident while they are high which is even more of a risk with alcohol), whereas countless people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption every year. And maybe you could find something somewhere of someone getting lung cancer from chronic chronic smoking but I bet that would be hard to find because even chronic MJ users are likely only inhaling a few lungfuls of that smoke a day compared to hundreds or thousands of lungfuls of smoke that a tobacco user might inhale. And if you vape or consume it in some other manner that risk vanishes entirely.

 

But what about the harm to the brain? If you go to any government website, yeah, you will probably hear about the horrors of MJ use and how it fucks up your brain. The reality is that more and more research is showing that that isn't really the case and that in a lot of cases the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I think the study I linked is a good example that shows for chronic long time users (and this is really a fringe case here as most people are not going to be getting high 3 times a day), while there were downsides, they also observed that connections between neurons in the brain were stronger on average than those who didn't smoke. So yes, if you smoke it constantly for a long period of time there is undoubtedly some elevated risk for certain things. But the same could be said for chronic caffeine consumption (which is actually chemically addictive), chronic food consumption, or chronic alcohol/tobacco consumption. So it is really a moot point and absolutely not a valid basis for why it should remain illegal as virtually everything we consume has risks if we do so in excess.

 

And there is the simple fact of the matter that criminalization is clearly not working. People are smoking it anyways at very high rates and it has become a fucking joke. It is used by every demographic of person from the rich to the poor and the uneducated to the highly educated. It is just absolutely silly.

 

Here is a good article to read that sums up why Sanjay Gupta (yeah, I know, celebrity doctor, can't be trusted yada yada) reversed course on this and is now a huge proponent. If you are doubting any of what I am saying, I highly recommend you read this and other articles like it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/08/health/gupta-changed-mind-marijuana/

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It should be noted that even in places where pot is legal, the pricing and local authorities are still slanted in favor of white people who are somewhat affluent. So while I think it's great to legalize, there's definitely people who have been and still are enjoying the benefits but we still live in a carceral society that enjoys free labor from people of color being imprisoned. 

 

Oh yeah, it's ridiculously expensive here in Washington literally 5x the price or more of the illegal stuff.

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Oh yeah, it's ridiculously expensive here in Washington literally 5x the price or more of the illegal stuff.

Also keep in mind that the stuff you are buying legally is likely of a much higher quality than what you might get illegally. Even when buying illegally, good hydro typically costs at least 5x as much as the shitty dirt weed that most people smoke.

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My friends who smoke a lot more than I would disagree. In Washington we like local craft breweries, Washington wines, and artisan weed :)

 

Back when it was first legalized here, there was a scramble to get stores up, but a complete failure by the state on the licensing side, leading to supplies being limited. The few authorized producers were trying so hard to make demand that they were (and this is where my understanding gets sketchy) drying the weed with a much quicker but less desirable process, making the smoke a little acrid. Still, it's fun being able to compare strains that are officially labeled and packaged by different companies.

 

Edit: Reading some news, it looks like it's only about a 50% markup now, and 4-5x prices were more about the rarity of the time.

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He could, that's why I made sure to bold smoking, and to be fair, smoking is probably the most used way to consume cannabis.

While this is true, a large part of that is because it's the most accessible form. I know here where there's easy access to everything most people I know use wax since they can just use vape pens (which is kind a negative for me because they are just so common here that people have become incredibly flippant with using tgem. I see people using e-ciggs in my classes and it's a complete non-issue).

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I never drank nor smoked pot but have been around crowds that dabbled in both quite regularly, so my impression is that pot seems... less harmful than alcohol.

 

Is my impression correct or incorrect?

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My 2 cents on the matter:

 

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The only thing I really hate about weed: Weed culture. I hate it as much as I hate wine culture.

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I don't like weed.  I don't like the way it looks, I don't like the way it smells, I don't like the way it tastes.  I think its gross and want nothing to do with it (although I would use products made from hemp such as paper or clothing so long as they in no way reminded me what they were made from).

 

All that said, I'm totally in favor of the legalization.  And that's all I have to say on the subject.

 

 

Pretty much my thoughts on it as well.  :tup:

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Health-wise, who really knows? Behavior wise, definitely.

Alcohol does far more harm to your health.

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The only thing I really hate about weed: Weed culture. I hate it as much as I hate wine culture.

Fucking this. Every pothead I have ever encountered socially is like the worst person, the dumbest person, or the laziest person in the vicinity. It's of course a generalization, but if I'm going to interact socially with people over a drug it'd have to be a nice drink because then it's fun. When I'm high around other people I also become an idiot who can't think of an interesting thing to say or do. It's just sleepy time. Can't stand the stuff, the way it smells, the way you usually consume it, and the way it's the only political thing some people about.

 

However it should be completely decriminalized it's not fair for anyone to get in trouble for such harmless stuff unless they are behind the wheel. My dad got arrested twice for having weed on him two years ago and it's still legal shit my parents are wrangling with for nothing, as he just keeps buds in a film cannister and like an idiot he was lighting up in a gas station parking lot one time and just had it in his car another time. He was stopped for not using his blinker the second time, the cop pulled up his record and saw he had been arrested for the first offense and then found it suitable to search his car. It basically ended up in about 10k in lawyer fees since the offenses were so close to eachother, they got rid of one, but he is still on probation for another. My dad has pretty much never been in trouble with the law either, at least since I was born.

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I have encountered one pot smoker that I knew was a pot smoker who was a cool dude who was not in any way part of Drug Culture. I've definitely run into my far share of tedious people who are largely fixated on getting high, but I think that might be a youth thing more than a drug thing, honestly.

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Either I'm more tolerant of people or I'm luckier in who I've met; I very rarely meet people of the "stoner" variety who I find repulsive.

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I am usually not afraid for my safety around stoners, I am around drunk guys. Drunkeness leads a lot more to really unhealthy mood changes and a pretense that suddenly all of your inhibition and judgement goes out the window.

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Yeah I've seen violent drunk, mean drunk, etc. but never seen anything other than giggly and chilled stoned people.

 

But I have seen more funnier drunk behaviors... one day friend calls my house at 2 AM

 

"Yo where are you"

Me: "You called my house, I'm at home"

"Yooo come outside"

Me: "What's up, why"

"I'm right hereeee"

 

I go outside and the dude is just laying on the sidewalk.  So I get him in the house then he proceeds to give my cousin (he was playing D2 if you are wondering why he was up so late) an hour lecture on various types of wallets.

 

Then again, I did have a buddy who smoked something bad and kept checking to see if the floor was still there or not.

 

More on topic though, can anyone think of any reason as to why it ought to be banned?  It just seems like such a non debate when arguable worse stuff like alcohol is allowed.

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"Sorry man, weed just makes me horny." Trust me -- every drug can be used as an excuse.

 

I don't usually find stoners repulsive, I just don't find people who have drug use as a primary aspect of their self-identity to be very engaging or interesting to talk to. I feel the same about them as I do about people who drink for the purpose of getting drunk several nights a week -- if you're that invested in using a substance that I only do sometimes and make a conscious effort not to overindulge in, we probably just aren't going to get along very well. It's like how I probably won't have much to talk about with someone who watches nothing but ESPN and is deeply invested in sports culture. I don't dislike them or judge them for what they're doing, it's just so outside of my interests that our conversation will probably never go further than the weather.

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Sorry, I guess I should specify, I'm not typically around friends who are sloshed. That is not fun drunk.

 

To me, high just seems more of an on and off thing that lasts as long as you have smoked, and is never fun to be around (for me).

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I just don't find people who have drug use as a primary aspect of their self-identity to be very engaging or interesting to talk to.

 

Pretty much this. Generally they're boring people, just like those who think it's fun to "get wasted" all the time. Maybe it's because those people aren't particularly interested in reality, but rather escaping it in the least intellectual way possible.

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Honestly I personally don't know anyone who I would think of as having (non-alcoholic) drug use as their primary characteristic. I definitely know a lot of people who smoke a lot of pot (and some who do significantly harder drugs, and while it's a debate for another time even they say if they hadn't started smoking pot they wouldn't have gotten into other stuff), but I guess outside of people who smoke all day and don't leave their house everyone I've met still does stuff which I associate with them more. I guess it's sort of like someone can get high multiple times throughout the day and still be normal and active, versus someone who gets drunk multiple times throughout the day probably isn't. Though there are the people I've seen on the street who have the stereotypical weed apparel who I never engage, which means I do agree with you.

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As with every subculture, there are extreme examples who are annoying as hell.

 

And, as with every subculture, there are totally cool people who do their thing without being belligerent about it.

 

I have known people who I'd describe as potheads or stoners or whatever the term (derogatory or otherwise) who are completely tolerable and even likable as individuals.

 

I've also known people who aren't. cough ahem gamergate ahem hem

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Honestly I personally don't know anyone who I would think of as having (non-alcoholic) drug use as their primary characteristic. 

 

That implies you know someone who drinks alcohol as a personality defining feature.

 

I knew a guy who would call himself a "junkie" all the time. He was ok in small doses (badum-tss) but if I was with him for an extended period of time, all he talked about were drugs. Just wasn't interesting. He wasn't a bad person, incredibly friendly, just kinda boring.

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