Sign in to follow this  
Jake

Idle Thumbs 144: Gimme Some More

Recommended Posts

Alright, somebody needs to talk up Majora's Mask and I guess that's going to be me. First off: I love Graceland and have never listened to Rhythm of the Saints, but I prefer Marjora's Mask to Ocarina of Time (although I suppose I have never actually personally completed either of them, since my brother did most of the controller handling when we played Zelda growing up).

 

I'm going to compare Majora to Groundhog Day, because that's obviously it's closest counterpart, although I don't know if the film was a direct inspiration for the game. Both are very character-based stories and their characters succeed because of the familiarity you get with them. In Groundhog Day, you get to know all the residents of the town extremely well, just as Phil does, because of how often you see them in the exact same situations and how they change ever so slightly every time, while remaining essentially the same. The same thing happens in Majora's Mask. You get a great sense of who the residents of Clock Town are, because you encounter and re-encounter them constantly, but as the game progresses, you see them in slightly new situations and learn a little bit more about them. Heck, the main subquest of the game is entirely based around getting to know people and help them out.

 

Likewise, both works have a great sense of place. In the movie, you come to know Punxsutawney extremely well, because you see it so often. I've now been through Clock Town so many times that I could probably map it out. But the constant re-treading of the same spaces doesn't feel tedious: they may never change, but every time you go through, you're a bit different, so you see something different. Or maybe you're this time you're there at a different time, so something knew happens that you weren't able to witness before.

 

Essentially, the limited scope of both Majora's Mask and Groundhog Day makes them feel extremely dense, which I think is something that appeals to Idle Thumbs. Majora is kind of like the "One City Block" game that Warren Spector always talks about: a small, well-defined space where every nook and cranny is fleshed out. Granted, Majora is still a rather large game and it's not entirely as fleshed out as one might hope, but it does a wonderful job of feeling packed to the brim with stuff whereas Ocarina feels empty. The game feels truly alive: there's always something happening, something moving around, changing and, after you go through your first three-day cycle, you always know that no matter what you're doing, things are happening elsewhere in the world. It means you fill in the blanks and make the world bigger than it actually is. In this way, it's very similar to The Last Express, another Thumbs favourite.

 

That brings me to my final point, which is that Majora's Mask is the most thematically coherent and interesting Zelda games and near the top of those categories for games period, at least those from AAA publishers. The game is about inevitability: right from the start, your failure is looming down at you. You try to save the world and get kicked back to the beginning. This world is called Termina: it's end is contained within it from the start. Every time you help somebody in a side-quest - lay a troubled soul to rest, re-unite a couple, prevent a crime - you know that it means nothing, because you turn back the clock and everything resets. The idea that the entire world is a clock with the gears constantly turning in a pre-destined motion shows up everywhere in the game: in the main mechanic, in the tower at the center of Clock Town, in the way people move through the world, even in the mechanistic feel of traditional Zelda puzzles. The theme works so well because it takes into account the limits of video games: a world that seems to change but never does, with people who seem real but move on rails, pulled inexorably to their end, goals that seem important but are ultimately trivial.

 

It's a rather dark premise, but there's a hopeful ring to it as well. Part of that is a theme it shares with The Walking Dead: regardless of consequences, choices matter and have meaning in the moment. It doesn't matter that the Moon will fall minutes after a young couple has married - you as the player chose to spend your time giving them a few moments of happiness and that has meaning. So your actions do matter. Even moreso, while the world always moves the same way, Link is free. He changes and he effects change. Eventually, with enough work, he breaks the cycle and saves the world. It's a message that says that inevitability isn't as inevitable as it seems; that small steps can agglomerate to have big consequences. It's remarkably eloquent and that's without even going into the themes of loss, exclusion and acceptance that are also present throughout.

 

TL;DR Everybody should play Majora's Mask. If there is any Zelda game that Idle Thumbs would like, this is it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, sure, it costs him $6 each time he records an episode 'cause he has to go into the city, but we, the viewers, pay it back with our adulation.

Nick and Chris are housemates in the same SF apartment!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was hoping for some Yoshi's Island talk! That game is fantastic!

Something I thought of this episode sparked by the brief old Nintendo games conversation is that although I wasn't old enough at the time to appreciate the SNES era, I still played a lot of the games that were highly regarded in that era when they were rereleased on the GBA, when I was 9-12 years old. My first exposure to the mario series was through the Super Mario Advanced games, so for the longest time I thought that was the order the mario games were released in. Weird to think that someone's only exposure to Ocarina of Time is through the 3ds version and not realize the pedestal people put this game on.

Anyway That was a bit rambley and didn't really have much to do with anything, but kind of weird realization I had this cast.

Great to hear Breckon again!

Edit: Wow that is a persuasive case to play Majora's Mask. The only Zelda game I've played to completion is A Link Between Worlds and that sounds amazing!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any particular reason for the sudden influx of new listeners?  Did you guys get featured somewhere, or get a huge boost in your iTunes' rating or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any particular reason for the sudden influx of new listeners?  Did you guys get featured somewhere, or get a huge boost in your iTunes' rating or something?

 

They told people that they should join the forums on the last cast. I figured that was it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, they specifically said new listeners, not new forum members. I was curious too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, they specifically said new listeners, not new forum members. I was curious too.

 

Well, there has been a rather large influx of new forum members too.  Probably due to lordly pictures of Jake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't really know where listeners came from but last week had an 18-20% bump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wtVMSVF.jpg

 

Over Christmas break my family went to Disneyland and I managed to do pretty well (I'm image right). This is my all-time best score, although I've gotten 1 million+ a couple of times.

 

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TAKE THINGS TOO SERIOUSLY 

 

I have a LOT OF KNOWLEDGE about this theme park ride.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things about Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters:

 

1) There used to be a flash game that was played concurrently as the people rode the game, and if you managed to score high in the flash game, it allowed for people riding to get multipliers for their score. This was taken out when the flash game was removed from the site it was on, but it was kind of fun sometimes to see targets light up, because it meant some 8 - 12 year old Buzz Lightyear fan on the internet was helping you out. Thanks! 

 

2) The reason that the standard deviation on the score distribution is so huge is because of the fact that scores still accrue when the ride stops to let on guests requiring assistance. A common trick by high scorers is to get on the ride strategically in front of someone who might need assistance such that the ride stops at an advantageous position. 

 

3) While many of the tips n' tricks discussed on the internet are indeed false, the one trick that has held up throughout the years involves shooting Emperor Zerg in the first room right straight in the middle of the chest, which nets something like 50k points. This is a pretty key target (it's worth five hits on a triangle target, the rarest and highest scoring target). If you can manage to get the ride to stop when you're looking at zerg (who kind of moves back and forth in the room), you can just watch your score skyrocket.

 

4) I have my target path laid out in my head for the ride, and it's pretty important that you know where diamond and triangle targets are hidden, and what triggers them. If you're shooting any other targets, you're wasting your time. A circle is 100 points. A square is 1000. The diamond is 5000, and the triangle is 10000, so who cares about a circle. The ride then becomes setting up on a triangle and staying pointing at it while you jam the button, hoping that the ride somehow stops for you. There's a triangle target right near the end that you go past over the course of like, 10 - 15 seconds that's pretty key, but it's opposite the actual thing that everyone is looking at, so you have to rotate 180 degrees.

 

5) That thing on the podcast, where Nick mentions that the scores got flipped? That's pretty common, and always frustrating.

 

6) I once went on the ride and, halfway through, I noticed that while there were a few people in front of me, the ride was empty behind me. This was mid-day in a busy month, so it was pretty confusing. The ride exits into a gift shop, and when I walked into the shop I realized that the ride operators had somehow lumped me into the entourage traveling with Nicolas Cage and his son (Weston, not Kal-El, sadly). Nothing is weirder than shopping in a Buzz Lightyear themed store with Nicolas Cage for five minutes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everybody should play Majora's Mask. If there is any Zelda game that Idle Thumbs would like, this is it.

 

Yes. I was thrilled as fuck to see Majoras Mask on the games list because I think it embodies a ton of things Thumbs love to talk about and usually champion. Every time in the past they've brought up narrative density in games (especially the "one city block" thing) I half expect somebody to bring up Majoras Mask but then they don't. It's also the only Zelda game (other than Wind Waker, possibly) that's thematically or tonally interesting in a way that's different from one before it.

 

Then their discussion about it in this cast could be boiled down to Jake sarcastically saying "but that moon, though". Which is fine, I guess. Just disappointing. I was at least hoping to hear why they didn't like it, but without somebody on the cast to defend the game I guess they didn't feel the need to get into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick and Chris are housemates in the same SF apartment!

 

Then he's paying $6 every day no matter what, and has no excuse!

 

 

(For some reason I though he'd moved up to the North Bay when TTG left Glacier Point.  Excuse me while I update my Thumbs Map.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things about Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters:

 

1) There used to be a flash game that was played concurrently as the people rode the game, and if you managed to score high in the flash game, it allowed for people riding to get multipliers for their score. This was taken out when the flash game was removed from the site it was on, but it was kind of fun sometimes to see targets light up, because it meant some 8 - 12 year old Buzz Lightyear fan on the internet was helping you out. Thanks! 

 

2) The reason that the standard deviation on the score distribution is so huge is because of the fact that scores still accrue when the ride stops to let on guests requiring assistance. A common trick by high scorers is to get on the ride strategically in front of someone who might need assistance such that the ride stops at an advantageous position. 

 

3) While many of the tips n' tricks discussed on the internet are indeed false, the one trick that has held up throughout the years involves shooting Emperor Zerg in the first room right straight in the middle of the chest, which nets something like 50k points. This is a pretty key target (it's worth five hits on a triangle target, the rarest and highest scoring target). If you can manage to get the ride to stop when you're looking at zerg (who kind of moves back and forth in the room), you can just watch your score skyrocket.

 

4) I have my target path laid out in my head for the ride, and it's pretty important that you know where diamond and triangle targets are hidden, and what triggers them. If you're shooting any other targets, you're wasting your time. A circle is 100 points. A square is 1000. The diamond is 5000, and the triangle is 10000, so who cares about a circle. The ride then becomes setting up on a triangle and staying pointing at it while you jam the button, hoping that the ride somehow stops for you. There's a triangle target right near the end that you go past over the course of like, 10 - 15 seconds that's pretty key, but it's opposite the actual thing that everyone is looking at, so you have to rotate 180 degrees.

 

5) That thing on the podcast, where Nick mentions that the scores got flipped? That's pretty common, and always frustrating.

 

6) I once went on the ride and, halfway through, I noticed that while there were a few people in front of me, the ride was empty behind me. This was mid-day in a busy month, so it was pretty confusing. The ride exits into a gift shop, and when I walked into the shop I realized that the ride operators had somehow lumped me into the entourage traveling with Nicolas Cage and his son (Weston, not Kal-El, sadly). Nothing is weirder than shopping in a Buzz Lightyear themed store with Nicolas Cage for five minutes. 

 

This forum is the best.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2) The reason that the standard deviation on the score distribution is so huge is because of the fact that scores still accrue when the ride stops to let on guests requiring assistance. A common trick by high scorers is to get on the ride strategically in front of someone who might need assistance such that the ride stops at an advantageous position. 

 

On the one hand, I'm astounded that people are meta-ing a Disneyland ride to exploit high scores.

 

On the other hand...of course they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Across the way from Disneyland is Disney's California Adventure, a second theme park which also features a video game ride, Toy Story Midway Mania, and it's more video game-ey than Astro Blasters. I'm not as big of a fan of Midway Mania, as it's mostly a ride where they put you up against projection screens, and you play little video games there, then they whip you to another set of screens. You wear polarized 3D glasses, so that's neat, and there are secret unlockables, but it lacks the charm of Astro Blasters. If they have to stop Midway Mania for some reason, the ride switches you temporarily into a practice mode where the points don't count, so it does normalize things somewhat compared to Astro Blasters.

 

The key difference between Midway Mania and Astro Blasters is that the former has cars that have to be stopped, unloaded, moved, stopped, and reloaded, while the Astro Blasters cars are on a constantly moving track, which means that the line for Midway Mania is 45 minutes +, and Astro Blasters has a line that tends to be around 5 - 10 minutes, and keeps moving. You can then just go on Astro Blasters multiple times throughout the day to practice, if you wished. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a great podcast. I think Nick might be the secret sauce, hopefully he can make it out more.

 

And, not to belabor The Banner Saga discussion that got beaten to death last podcast thread, but I really am curious what makes all the text in The Banner Saga so intolerable when Chris and Nick both liked Dragon Age: Origins, which had a similar presentation and density of exposition and lore with a higher average words-per-minute-of-gameplay. Not to compare what may just be apples and oranges, but is it the greater length of Dragon Age, which rewards more attention and investment? Is it the single self-defined avatar that the player is given, which lends immediacy and permanency to any decisions being made? Is it the unification of combat and dialogue in a single mode, which keeps either from feeling like a sideshow to the "real" game? I don't mean those questions to be confrontational. I'd just love to know how The Banner Saga's dialogue could hardly give me pause while almost ruining the game for others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't really know where listeners came from but last week had an 18-20% bump.

 

Weird!  Though I concur that an in-depth analysis of a Disneyland ride is a perfect introduction to the Thumbs.

 

 

(For some reason I though he'd moved up to the North Bay when TTG left Glacier Point.  Excuse me while I update my Thumbs Map.)

 

I just got a mental image an entire wall devoted to Thumb locations.  Current and former homes/jobs, favorite vacation sites, preferred coffee shops, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's interesting about the EVE battle is that it kind of happened because of one guy, the CFC fleet commander who decided to go all in. Making that call was just insane, even though it worked out. I think it's fascinating that you can have power structures like that in a game, 2,000 people waiting on the word of one person. It must be stressful being in charge of $300,000 worth of internet spaceships though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The major strength of A Link Between Worlds is, no doubt, the dungeons. The story is standard fair, the graphics are only okay. Like they mentioned on the episode, the dungeons are more focused and concise, and this is surprisingly revolutionary, especially considering the nature of playing a game like Zelda on a handheld. Yes, I enjoyed the freedom, yes I enjoyed Ravio, yes the music is utterly beautiful, but it is the dungeon design that made this game for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then he's paying $6 every day no matter what, and has no excuse!

 

 

(For some reason I though he'd moved up to the North Bay when TTG left Glacier Point.  Excuse me while I update my Thumbs Map.)

 

You're overpaying for the golden gate bridge. Time to get Fastrak :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key difference between Midway Mania and Astro Blasters is that the former has cars that have to be stopped, unloaded, moved, stopped, and reloaded, while the Astro Blasters cars are on a constantly moving track, which means that the line for Midway Mania is 45 minutes +, and Astro Blasters has a line that tends to be around 5 - 10 minutes, and keeps moving. You can then just go on Astro Blasters multiple times throughout the day to practice, if you wished. 

 

You can't beat an omnimover for capacity. Unless you're Pirates of the Caribbean. But also, short lines for Astro Blasters are a relatively recent development that came about with the removal of the fastpass system. Before that, you could easily wait 30-45 minutes for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a great podcast. I think Nick might be the secret sauce, hopefully he can make it out more.

 

And, not to belabor The Banner Saga discussion that got beaten to death last podcast thread, but I really am curious what makes all the text in The Banner Saga so intolerable when Chris and Nick both liked Dragon Age: Origins, which had a similar presentation and density of exposition and lore with a higher average words-per-minute-of-gameplay. Not to compare what may just be apples and oranges, but is it the greater length of Dragon Age, which rewards more attention and investment? Is it the single self-defined avatar that the player is given, which lends immediacy and permanency to any decisions being made? Is it the unification of combat and dialogue in a single mode, which keeps either from feeling like a sideshow to the "real" game? I don't mean those questions to be confrontational. I'd just love to know how The Banner Saga's dialogue could hardly give me pause while almost ruining the game for others.

 

It sounds like it comes down to an issue of expectations. I haven't played DA:O so I can't say for sure why that worked, and why this didn't, but I also suspect there wasn't any ambiguity when someone bought that game that they were buying a RPG, and that comes with a set of expectations about the content of the game. I don't know why the Thumbs were unaware that this was a tactical RPG, but it definitely sounds like that is what happened, and that undoubtedly impacted the impression of the game. Massive Challice is a game I am expecting to be more XCOM-like than RPG-like, and if that turns out to be wrong I suspect I'll end up pretty disappointed, so I can see how the writing of the game, which also seems totally benign to me, could end up leaving a poor impression depending on a different expectation set. 

 

This is also why I continue to disagree with the Thumbs crew about early access games on Steam. I think as the system currently exists, it makes it extremely difficult for a developer to properly calibrate player expectations, and that's a bad thing for both players and developers.

 

This ties into the conversation from one of the team members from Far Cry 2 about how that game is a design failure in a way since it requires so much knowledge in advance about what makes the game good for someone to avoid having a negative experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this