Impossidog

subtlety in dialogue?

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I have been playing a lot more dialogue driven games in the past year and I find that I hate being out right told the implications of a plot point.

This mostly happens in cut scenes but it is still off putting.

 

Also games seem to be afraid to represent the player a bit better in cutscenes. Movies have characters that point out some of the flaws of the protagonist and are there to kinda call out them out on their bullshit. I don't know how many of you have seen Frozen by Disney, but they have a character in that movie named Olaf, he is a snowman, he is used to bring some of the weird tropes that Disney has made in the last few years and help them be addressed in a meaningful way. Correct me if I am wrong but I haven't seen many characters that do this in games, if there are please mention them I would love to see them.

 

 

Maybe I am completely off base with this observation, I would love to hear what you guys think.

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Games writing mostly sucks. Just play Kentucky Route Zero, The Entertainment, and Limits & Demonstrations over and over until it's the year 2030 and games writing doesn't suck.

(I'm being a little harsh. The Walking Dead Season 1, for instance, wasn't always obvious about things. And there are other good games too. But generally games writing is just terrible because it's an afterthought and because lots of good writers don't know how to write for games, and so on. There's also the need to cater to the lowest common denominator in lots of games, because that's what lots of games just seem to do.)

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One of the games I enjoy most for its writing is Knights of the Old Republic II. It's a bit inconsistent, I mean it's a massive RPG with lots of aliens so some of the dialogue can get pretty bad, but on the whole I adore it. I do think it's quite subtle and you have to contemplate the story a bit to get something out of it. The game leaves a lot of stuff unanswered, unexplained and unresolved. I don't know how intentional some of that is, because the development of the game was suddenly wrapped up about 6 months too early. It's part of what I like about it and it's also what frustrates some people. It's a game about Star Wars though, so it can't be as profound as a story about something more human, but as a Star Wars thing it's the best written by far.

 

I don't want to get into specifics too much, but I don't think you'd complain about the plot being too overt.

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I've become a little bit more soft on judging game writing since I started listening to Tone Control.

 

I think the key is that people who develop games start with an idea for game play, rather than an idea for a narrative. This means that the narrative often first serves the purpose of justifying game play elements, and so the finer points of the writing tend to get all garbled up and stilted.

 

Anyway, it shouldn't be a real barrier to anyone who truly wants to tell a meaningful and affecting story, but at this time most developers have other concerns.

 

And that may not be a bad thing, because there are still myriad unexplored territories within games, and narrative is just one of them. But, I'm sure there are a ton of smart people working on the problem either way. (Everyone involved with Idle Thumbs, for instance. Good job, guys.)

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I feel that most dialogue is avoidable. Video games have all of film's advantages of showing rather than telling, plus they can generally afford more subtlety because the player has more time to explore a given environment. A tossed cigarette pack or a charred corpse conveys information more effectively than an NPC saying 'he was a 20-a-day guy' or 'beware the dragon!' But if the writer has no power over these elements and has been asked to work them into the dialogue, even the best will struggle to crowbar in info they would rather jettison or communicate differently given free reign.

 

One of the games I enjoy most for its writing is Knights of the Old Republic II. It's a bit inconsistent, I mean it's a massive RPG with lots of aliens so some of the dialogue can get pretty bad, but on the whole I adore it. I do think it's quite subtle and you have to contemplate the story a bit to get something out of it. The game leaves a lot of stuff unanswered, unexplained and unresolved. I don't know how intentional some of that is, because the development of the game was suddenly wrapped up about 6 months too early. It's part of what I like about it and it's also what frustrates some people. It's a game about Star Wars though, so it can't be as profound as a story about something more human, but as a Star Wars thing it's the best written by far.

Seconded. I quite fancy going back and playing it with the modded ending that came out last year(?) reinstating the 'proper' ending.

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That'se something that I always was uncomfortable with, and not only on dialogs. I even wrote an article about it on one site I used to write for. For example, David Cage says he wants to make games more "emotional", and to achieve that he to put his characters on some desperate and dangerous situations and adds some cringeworthy dialog to them. That's so unrealistic, lacks pacing and shows no subtlety at all, something that's usually necessary if you're trying to portrait a "mature and emotional" story.

That's why I liked The Last of Us. The writing is mostly pretty great IMO, I liked the fact they went for a taciturn like Joel, who mostly reveal his personality by his actions, at the end of the game you could truly understand him, even if he never says directly why he does that kind of stuff. And then, there was the

"okay"

moment. It wouldn't be so powerful if it wasn't subtle.

I also love Shadow of the Colossus for the very same reason.

Guess I'll have to play Kentucky Route Zero. I see people saying great stuff about this game, but I must admit that I don't enjoy point and click games so much (played very few PC games back then). I already bought it, but I never finished the first chapter, it's such a shame.

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I found the writing/presentation of that writing in Saints Row 3 to be the best of any game. I know it is over the top and ludicrous, but there are more stand out moments In that game than most of my top 10 combined.

 

One of the games I enjoy most for its writing is Knights of the Old Republic II. It's a bit inconsistent, I mean it's a massive RPG with lots of aliens so some of the dialogue can get pretty bad, but on the whole I adore it. I do think it's quite subtle and you have to contemplate the story a bit to get something out of it. The game leaves a lot of stuff unanswered, unexplained and unresolved. I don't know how intentional some of that is, because the development of the game was suddenly wrapped up about 6 months too early. It's part of what I like about it and it's also what frustrates some people. It's a game about Star Wars though, so it can't be as profound as a story about something more human, but as a Star Wars thing it's the best written by far.

 

I don't want to get into specifics too much, but I don't think you'd complain about the plot being too overt.

 

Also KOTOR 2 is one of my favourite games of all time, because it is one of the most dark representations of Star Wars.

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I'm not even sure there has to be much writing in games, let alone 'good' writing. As dartmonkey pointed out, films are best when they show, not tell. Games are best when they not show, but (I have no verb for this), let me find. 

I actually find those cut scenes or dialogue trees to be tiresome, and most of the time just skip them. The best games out there let me figure out what's going on without telling me or showing me anything. 

 

People talk about the writing in Last of Us, which was indeed pretty good, but that moment when

Bill crumples and drops the note from Frank, and you as the player find it

is what stood out for me. That moment where you see what the survivor is like is just perfect. Only minimal writing was needed to pull that off.

 

Similarly in Bravely Default (which has awful writing) there is one moment that said far more about a character than all the boring text I spammed the A button through.

The moment you find that Edea kept the skimpy bikini that the Old Sage made and later becomes an equip-able item just for her.

 

Afterthought:

I actually think it's doing the medium a disservice to say that it needs better writing. Games aren't about writing, they're about interactive experiences. Making better interactive experiences is what will make the narratives better. 

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Games can be about anything; that's one of the great things about them. It's 100% possible to make a game that leans heavily on writing and doesn't suck. See: interactive fiction.

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I like "Do, don't show" when adaptating the "Show, don't tell" rule to games.

I'm a big fan of mechanics evoking a non-explicit narrative.

Bad writing and dialogue don't tend to impact my enjoyment of a mechanically good game, and even improve the experience if they're stupid enough. Planescape: Torment might be the only instance of a story pulling me through a bad game.

I think you *can* tell good stories with games (and by tell I mean "tell a linear narrative about characters who grow and struggle and change"), but it is much easier to do it in other mediums.

If you're setting out to tell a story I don't know that it's worth the trouble to do it with a game.

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The big problem with dialogue in games is they don't represent the player in any tangible way, sometimes they try with branching conversations but rarely do they do anything tangible with the choices.

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That's certainly a big problem with games where choice matters. But it's entirely possible to craft an experience where the player doesn't and shouldn't have any choice, or if they do have a choice, it's very minor and doesn't affect the larger story.

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Want an example of bad dialogue? Play Spec Ops: The Line. The game did a few interesting things but mostly came of pretentious 

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I have real trouble taking seriously anyone who uses the word "pretentious" as an insult against a game that tries to say something interesting. "Pretentious" as an insult is used in a way that's quite divorced from what "pretentious" actually means. The most pretentious game I've ever played is Gears of War. Spec Ops: The Line hardly rates. This video helps explain some of the reasons I think the game succeeds.

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I have real trouble taking seriously anyone who uses the word "pretentious" as an insult against a game that tries to say something interesting. "Pretentious" as an insult is used in a way that's quite divorced from what "pretentious" actually means. The most pretentious game I've ever played is Gears of War. Spec Ops: The Line hardly rates. This video helps explain some of the reasons I think the game succeeds.

 

That may be the wrong word then, I will check out the video though. 

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Planescape: Torment might be the only instance of a story pulling me through a bad game.

 

I keep meaning to go back and play some of Torment again to see if the writing holds up for me now.  I remember being blown away by it, but that was 15 years ago and I was a young and not particularly well versed in quality writing. 

 

I rather enjoy games where much of the story is optional, like Dark Souls.  Since the game completely works without them ramming a story down your throat, they can play with some interesting, ambiguous and deep lore, knowing that it's there for people who want it, and isn't getting in the way of people who just want game. I'm playing a Binding of Isaac-style roguelite right now called Our Darker Purpose that is very similar.  The story and lore is mostly stored in item descriptions and a lore book you have access to, and it's actually some good stuff.  But if you're just in it for the wash, rinse, repeat of a decent roguelite, then it isn't slowing you down. 

 

I find that with that style of story telling, I actually end up caring more about learning about what's going on, since I have to go out of my way to learn it rather than being spoonfed. 

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Can we all agree the Binary Domain is the pinnacle of game writing? 

Is this sarcasm? I've not played Binary Domain, but from what I've read it looks pretty weak (plus it's Sega. I'm not much of a Sega fan). If it's not sarcasm maybe it's something I should try out.

 

Bjorn, doesn't that fit with the find/do, rather than the show or tell? The idea that the game is set within a coherent universe, that is actually quite interesting, but the player must go out their way to find it. I too love that style (although I didn't get far into Dark Souls since it's a game that demands your time in both length and research), and it fits some games more than others. Like you said Dark Souls, it's a game that focusses on the mechanics and combat, so doesn't lose much by not having a story. However some games simply couldn't exist without that. 

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Binary Domain was worked on by the guy who did the writing for Penumbra, The Swapper, and some other games, and I've heard it's actually kind of interesting.

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Binary Domain was worked on by the guy who did the writing for Penumbra, The Swapper, and some other games, and I've heard it's actually kind of interesting.

I there is any interesting writing in Binary Domain, then it must be after a few hours of corridor shooting, one solution boss-battles, and some incredibily campy "Bro, the chinese girl looks hot!"-"Dude, shut-up. I'm trying to hook up with her." dialogue.

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Bjorn, doesn't that fit with the find/do, rather than the show or tell? The idea that the game is set within a coherent universe, that is actually quite interesting, but the player must go out their way to find it. I too love that style (although I didn't get far into Dark Souls since it's a game that demands your time in both length and research), and it fits some games more than others. Like you said Dark Souls, it's a game that focusses on the mechanics and combat, so doesn't lose much by not having a story. However some games simply couldn't exist without that. 

 

Yeah, I think it does.  Neither game I mentioned necessarily drives narrative with mechanics, but it does require work and initiative on the part of the player to delve into what is going on. 

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I there is any interesting writing in Binary Domain, then it must be after a few hours of corridor shooting, one solution boss-battles, and some incredibily campy "Bro, the chinese girl looks hot!"-"Dude, shut-up. I'm trying to hook up with her." dialogue.

I haven't played it at all but from what I've heard the interesting stuff does come later.

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