Sean

Dota Today 2: The Lord's Pitch

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He doesn't suck.

 

He's boring and lame, but you're right, he's not bottom tier or anything.

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You know who sucks?! VIPER. Now I love playing me some Viper, but he's such a garbage hero. Thematically, boring. Gameplay, simple, potential for a lot of damage, but ZERO escape, so completely useless in high level play. Fuckin' Viper.

Valve/Ice frog: fix pls.

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No escape mechanism is an overrated fault (Viper's incredible ability to slow is plenty escape anyway). Most heroes don't have escapes and most heroes are totally viable for every level of play. Viper especially so because so few heroes can dominate a lane like he can.

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I've listened to both episodes of this podcast, plus however many hours of you guys talking about Dota on Idle Thumbs, without having ever played or even seen footage of the game (or any LOMA for that matter). Every time I hear it talked about, I think I learn about some other mechanic or rule or nuance of the game that completely changes the wacky image of Dota I have in my head. It often feels

, like you are making up terms and names of Lords and abilities on the spot.

 

I wonder how long I can go listening to this podcast without actually experiencing the game. And what it'll be like finally playing the game after, say, 50 episodes of this.

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I've listened to both episodes of this podcast, plus however many hours of you guys talking about Dota on Idle Thumbs, without having ever played or even seen footage of the game (or any LOMA for that matter). Every time I hear it talked about, I think I learn about some other mechanic or rule or nuance of the game that completely changes the wacky image of Dota I have in my head. It often feels

, like you are making up terms and names of Lords and abilities on the spot.

 

I wonder how long I can go listening to this podcast without actually experiencing the game. And what it'll be like finally playing the game after, say, 50 episodes of this.

 

You should attempt to write a summary of Dota's gameplay and setting with only knowledge from Dotatoday discussions.

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No escape mechanism is an overrated fault (Viper's incredible ability to slow is plenty escape anyway). Most heroes don't have escapes and most heroes are totally viable for every level of play. Viper especially so because so few heroes can dominate a lane like he can.

I mean I know what you're saying, but Viper is just awful against a team that's actually regularly rotating for ganks. At best, he'll get one kill before he dies. At worst he gets no kills. At second best he gets one kill AFTER he dies.

 

Yuck. Viper is trash. I'm sorry, but he is. His poison only works against one enemy at a time (not literally, but if you're trying to slow more than one guy at a time, you're going to be slowing YOURSELF down), and, yes, he can easily dominate a single lane. But that's it. Unless he gets the levels/farm needed to be super tanky, he just gets destroyed late game, and against a team that is regularly rotating, as mentioned above, he is never going to get the levels/farm.

 

Combine all that with Viper being largely a single-target, damage-over-time focused hero, as opposed to most fo the stronger carries which tend to burst enemies down much faster AND have much more maneuverability...

 

I also have no idea where you're getting your information from. Most heroes DO have escapes. And most of those escapes are much stronger than Viper's poison.

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You should attempt to write a summary of Dota's gameplay and setting with only knowledge from Dotatoday discussions.

Like the girl describing star wars having not seen it?

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How many mid heroes are going to reliably escape an organized gank on their lane before 6? Puck, Queen of Pain, Batrider, and maybe Templar Assassin? I don't care which hero it is, if they've been aggressively ganked they're going to struggle to have an impact. What Viper does excel at, winning 1v1 and fighting melee heroes, there's no better hero for the job. Viper is an agility carry, of course he's going to get wrecked late game without farm, every agility carry will. I don't want it to sound like I think Viper is a top tier hero, he's not, but he's also not Bloodseeker. He has his place especially against the current popularity of melee heroes.

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To me it sounds like a cross between Plants Vs. Zombies, tower defense, that one mini game in Banjo Kazooie (Could be DK64 or some other N64 platformer?) where you crawled inside someone's nose and had to eat the right colored boogers, Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, Quidditch and Diablo 2.

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How many mid heroes are going to reliably escape an organized gank on their lane before 6? Puck, Queen of Pain, Batrider, and maybe Templar Assassin? I don't care which hero it is, if they've been aggressively ganked they're going to struggle to have an impact. What Viper does excel at, winning 1v1 and fighting melee heroes, there's no better hero for the job. Viper is an agility carry, of course he's going to get wrecked late game without farm, every agility carry will. I don't want it to sound like I think Viper is a top tier hero, he's not, but he's also not Bloodseeker. He has his place especially against the current popularity of melee heroes.

Again, I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree at all. Viper simply can't have the same impact as, well, even a Bloodseeker. I'd say a Bloodseeker is definitely better than a Viper, simply because he has more staying power if he's getting shat upon.

 

Also, Viper will die even after level six.

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Also Bloodseeker got some nice buffs in the patch.  I guess Viper kind of got a buff, I never get Corrosive Skin on him early though, maybe it'd be worth getting to some extent early against heroes with a fair amount of magic harass like Zeus.

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I tend to get Corrosive Skin against magic damage dudes with the ability to spam, yeah. Zeus, Magnus, etc. You won't end up dealing quite as much damage, but the survivability of even just one level helps a whole hell of a lot.

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I don't want to restrict any convo but would we be better off just creating a LOMA BATTLE ROYALE thread where people can go to have these arguments and keep the episode threads about the actual episode? I know it came up on this ep (so, yeah, whatever) but it's not really an argument I'm very interested in and not what I want much of the show to be about. Thoughts?

 

Please.  I love the podcast.  I love dota.  I love that the podcast (so far) is not another pro dota analysis or coverage of recent drama (not that I'm against talking about esports, but there are enough esports shows out there).  I rarely venture into the idle thumbs forums, but I came here hoping for some neat dota discussion.  Instead, it's the typical LoL vs Dota stuff.

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You guys were great on this episode as well as the first, and between those two eps, you two LoMar's are off to a great start :).

Brad Muir was a cool, funny, and likeable guest, as well as a perfect compliment to the two of you, and I really hope he can occasionally find time to come in and chat with you guys between slaving away over a hot computer on Massive Chalice. (Which sounds awesome, by the way. I could go on about it for like, a paragraph but I'll just stick with saying that I'm really excited.)

 

Lastly, perfect timing on the brief Dota-for-beginners discussion. The only games I really play competitively online are tactical and action shooters, so I'm quite intimidated about getting into Dota. The love you guys clearly have for the game makes me really excited to try it out, and I think your answer to that  reader mail was the final nail in the Dota coffin wherein I will be spending the foreseeable future. So thanks, guys.

 

Great cast, great guest, looking forward to the next one.

 

Does anyone on here have any recommendations for learning resources, guides, etc. that might be suitable to a ground-level beginning Dota player? It would be very appreciated. THANK YOU!

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Bloodseeker was actually played in a tournament game since the buffs in 6.78. His silence purges the target now, so they used it to remove Treant's armor buff. The game has a lot of unconventional picks in it, actually (CM, Slark and Broodmother). You can watch it

.

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Does anyone on here have any recommendations for learning resources, guides, etc. that might be suitable to a ground-level beginning Dota player? It would be very appreciated. THANK YOU!

It was mentioned on the podcast, but I find this to be very good:

http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

 

Also, don't play vs the bots if you can help it because they are actually way nastier than human opponents will be - they coordinate their stuns very well.

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Just curious because I don't remember hearing/reading it, but any concrete idea of how often you guys are going to do the cast? 

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In regards to Axe does anyone still double stout shield with him?  I know it was one of the most common builds in WC3 at one point and in HoN it was considered core, but I don't even know if they even stack in the Dota 2 engine.

 

the best build is shield + ring of protection + tangos. You can pick up boots, ring of regen and an energy booster all from the sideshop which allows you to have both tranquils and arcane boots, disassembling one and making the other whenever they're off cooldown.

 

 

It was mentioned on the podcast, but I find this to be very good:

http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

 

Also, don't play vs the bots if you can help it because they are actually way nastier than human opponents will be - they coordinate their stuns very well.

 

playing vs. bots is fine !! Just play a solo game with bots and take middle lane (the bot there will leave). You can learn about the very core tenants of the game and try out some heroes without the typical 'sit in fountain reading item descriptions while 3 russians swear at you' intro a lot of people have. 

 

Once you have a decent idea how things work, then you can queue into matchmaking and start grindin that dota knowledge.

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Everyone should go through the experience of 3 russians swearing at you. It can be incredibly magical. Once I took a rune that I thought our russian mid wasn't grabbing. Boy was I wrong! He screamed at me for a minute straight over voip in russian, then suddenly screamed "MCDONALDS COCA-COLA!!!!" at the end of his rant. I could not stop laughing.

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guys a viper was picked in a pro game today and he went offlane which is the only lane i think he's worthwhile in i'm SO EXCITED

 

he was also BANNED which is hilarious

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The podcast continues to be great, really enjoyed Brad's perspective! Look forward to seeing what ye do with it, also more than a little jealous ye will be visiting The International, will there be a special podcast?

 

Everyone should go through the experience of 3 russians swearing at you. It can be incredibly magical. Once I took a rune that I thought our russian mid wasn't grabbing. Boy was I wrong! He screamed at me for a minute straight over voip in russian, then suddenly screamed "MCDONALDS COCA-COLA!!!!" at the end of his rant. I could not stop laughing.

 

I've a friend who, before he starts playing, copies a string of Cyrillic so, if any Russians start angrily shouting or typing at him he can paste it into chat. He's told me it means "and the same to your mother, sir" or something similar :P 

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Everyone should go through the experience of 3 russians swearing at you. It can be incredibly magical. Once I took a rune that I thought our russian mid wasn't grabbing. Boy was I wrong! He screamed at me for a minute straight over voip in russian, then suddenly screamed "MCDONALDS COCA-COLA!!!!" at the end of his rant. I could not stop laughing.

Oh man I had pretty much the exact same thing happen to me once. It's fantastic. I don't remember what the trigger was in my case, but he definitely did the MCDONALD'S COCA-COLA rant.

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Complete aside, weird that when I queued with a couple random idlethumbs channel people, we randomly got matched with you.

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