Double Fine - Kickstarter - MASSIVE CHALICE

[Twig]

it's not necessarily about the amount of money it's the psychological commitment to something that may not happen, so the more likely it is to actually happen the easier it is to commit to it

He's also intelligent enough to know and admits to having the knowledge that pledging is not the same thing as spending.

 

So, basically, he's part of the vicious cycle that is "oh that's not doing very well, why bother funding it" to "it's not getting any money" and back to "oh that's not doing very well, why bother funding it".

[BigJKO]

well i wouldn't back something i didn't think would get funded, i think this whole crowd funding thing is still in it's infancy, the kickstarter model is a good one but the time limit and the hard line of successful funding (reaching the goal) are problems, you could have different models like where you set a really high goal and if it doesn't match the goal in time you make the product a lower budget product, or for some things you could just have no time limit and no hard goals.

 

That's the opposite of how I feel about crowd-funding. If the time limit and goals weren't there I'd never go near it. I want people to make budgets, figure out how much they'd realistically need to pull off projects and then ask for that amount. I hate it when projects shoot for half, just so they can reach the goal and then hope for the rest. That's a risky thing to do when it involves so many people's money. I want to know that if the project reaches its goal, and only its goal, then it is going to get made. If you're afraid you won't reach a high goal, then rescope your project to a smaller one (like Tim Schafer started out doing, his original Kickstarter was to do a lo-fi adventure with no voices) and then if you get more money go ahead and make the project bigger for that money.

 

I think I'm more tired of hearing people complain about Kickstarter and who can and can't use it, than I ever will be of Kickstarter itself. I love backing stuff that I like and can not in any way see the problem with people doing so. Whenever something comes along that I don't like or object to, I ignore it. If a person/company can start a Kickstarter and get enough people to back it to be succesful then Hooray For Them. The more the merrier, really. More attention to the platform, thus more people that may back other projects.

[thestalkinghead]

i depends on the project as i said the kickstarter model is a good one, but it isn't perfect for everything, one problem comes if you want to make something big budget and you get only get 90% of your goal it counts as it failing, or if is a product that gets manufactured it is usually cheaper the more you make so not having a hard goal could be useful because you can't budget it until you know how many you will get manufactured and the pledge categories would be the estimated price.

[thorn]

I like that they didn't bother with any reward tiers that don't get you the actual product. Those always seem dumb.

 

I'd have liked a $1 backer tier on this one. I'm not really an RTS fan, but I liked getting all the backer updates for Broken age and would have liked to have gotten them for Massive Chalice too.

[Chris]

I'd have liked a $1 backer tier on this one. I'm not really an RTS fan, but I liked getting all the backer updates for Broken age and would have liked to have gotten them for Massive Chalice too.

 

You can just back $1 if you want. It doesn't matter if there's a tier or not.

 

(Also just to clarify, there's no RTS component to Massive Chalice. It's entirely turn-based.)

[elmuerte]

I hope they release the blooper reel for this kickstarter video

[SecretAsianMan]

Say Chris, are you at all involved with this?  Not that it will influence my decision to back it...

[I_smell]

Recently I had a big argument about whether or not I should do a second Kickstarter. I did one in February 2011 for 7,000, and it was a big scary thing. It basically came up that we should do one now for a MUCH HIGHER NUMBER. I was totally against it and argued it down for ages, and had to really hypothetically think over what the reaction would be, whether or not we need this, figure out why I felt so bad about the idea and whether or not it was just a me-problem and I was being an idiot.*

So I totally doubled down on how a second Kickstarter is not the guy I wanna be, wrestled the idea out the door and charted a new plan my own way, then confided in the shrine of DoubleFine, Vlambeer, Capy and other indie game good guys that I'd done the right thing.

 

So I couldn't be any more cartoonishly POWNED when I woke up n read this headline.

I'll throw some money at this cos I love the DFA videos so much, but I think I'll spend about 25 days having an identity crisis first.

*This is trusting that we could get it funded, which was a totally seperate conversation with a lot more arguing.

 

I'm kind of over Kickstarter as a thing since it's become obvious they'll allow any project on there since they get a cut of it. That Susan Wilson thing with her 9 year old making a game from RPG maker, and this ridiculous second kickstarter by PA http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pennyarcade/penny-arcades-podcast-downloadable-content-the-ret

WHAT! Robert Khoo gave a whole PAX panel about how Kickstarter isn't a store!

god damn it I was totally with him on that.

[feelthedarkness]

I'm still at the point where I think kickstarter is a great way to support creators I believe in, who might be making less than perfectly commercial projects. I have enjoyed all the DF (and Obsidian) games, so I don't mind throwing down some cash to help them keep going. I can pretend I'm some Victorian era patron.

[voxn]

poor artists already have to make up over 1k house sigils for the $100 tier, and 75% of them are probably "MAKE MINE A COOL DRAGON"

[Gormongous]

"MAKE MINE A COOL DRAGON"

Said in Jake's dorky teenager voice.

[Chris]

Say Chris, are you at all involved with this?  Not that it will influence my decision to back it...

I don't know yet (the whole team hasn't been finalized) but probably not. I was involved with a bunch of the planning stuff but I doubt I'll be super directly involved with the game after the KS is over.

[Roderick]

But, then, who is going to incorporate the danger layer?

[elmuerte]

you missed a good opportunity to say "danger zone".

[Dewar]

I like kickstarter because I can throw $20 in, forget about it, then suddenly an awesome game shows up at my door a year later. It's like signing up for one of those Jelly-of-the-Month clubs.

[Forbin]

Personally I didn't fund because:

 

1) it looked like it was going to succeed without my help

2) I'm not really super into turned based tactics games. The ones I have, i hardly play.

3) I don't feel like I'm getting an early backer's deal at a $20 price point.

4) I kind of want one of the game kickstarter campaigns I've backed to deliver before I go deeper.

5) I haven't really kept up with the broken age documentary, so I doubt I'd find time to go through content updates

6) I don't really like the name.

 

I know that 3 is a bit silly, and that the spirit of Kickstarter should be to PBS pledge drive the success of the project rather than think of the values of the tiers.  But if this game comes out, I can almost guarantee I'll pick it up for $5 on a steam deal, or in some bundle later.  But in combination with 1 and 2, I guess I was only really looking at the project at face value.

 

I wish them good luck though, it sounds like an interesting game.  And I think it's great that Double Fine is looking to deal more directly with the public rather than through publishers.

[I_smell]

y'know for not going through publishers, this is kind of the LEAST ludicrous concept Double Fine's ever come up with.

 

 

Maybe Brad's just focusing on game systems and after a couple weeks of production all the units will-- become insane garbage-monsters or something.

[Apelsin]

True, this feels like one of the more conventional games that I've seen DF do, with maybe the exception of Trenched/Iron Brigade.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how the Double Fine-spirit influences it.

[Jake]

True, this feels like one of the more conventional games that I've seen DF do, with maybe the exception of Trenched/Iron Brigade.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how the Double Fine-spirit influences it.

 

Middle Manager of Justice and Dropchord are both games which you wouldn't know were from DF if they didn't have the logo at the start. Trenched has military guys in it, but at least it has crazy weird alien robots and an unconventional (if super super subdued) sense of humor.

 

I expect Massive Chalice to feel like a Double Fine game in that the art is going to be spectacular and different from what a mainstream studio would do, even though it has a fantasy setting. If everything from Double Fine looked like a Scott Campbell cartoon come to life I think I would be less interested in them as a studio long-term. I think part of Double Fine's "problem" (not quite the right word) is that their games don't have anything tangible for outsiders to grab on to. If you don't already know about the team's legacy of originality and quality from Tim's LucasArts days, or from happening upon one of their past releases, their big name games don't give you a strong hook to hold on to other than "whoa this is weird looking!" I think there is a balance they can strike where the game has some inlets for people who haven't already bought in, while still offering a unique feeling that you don't get from any other developer (Costume Quest is a great example of this).

[I_smell]

True, this feels like one of the more conventional games that I've seen DF do, with maybe the exception of Trenched/Iron Brigade.

I'd personally count Trenched as a bonkers aesthetic, Im pretty sure the level hub is a giant walking boat in that game.

[syntheticgerbil]

Yeah, Trenched is only deceptively conventional in terms of it's art style. There is some wacky shit going on in that game.

[Apelsin]

True, I had forgotten about the walking boat

 

I guess the whole man-shoot (Monster-shoot in this case) sort of overshadows that slightly for me though, at least when compared to something like Stacked.

That said I've not dived far enough into the DF games to have anything but a quite shallow impression of most of them.

 

Massive Chalice should be able to draw me into it for quite some time though! 

[clyde]

Middle Manager of Justice and Dropchord are both games which you wouldn't know were from DF if they didn't have the logo at the start. Trenched has military guys in it, but at least it has crazy weird alien robots and an unconventional (if super super subdued) sense of humor.

 

I expect Massive Chalice to feel like a Double Fine game in that the art is going to be spectacular and different from what a mainstream studio would do, even though it has a fantasy setting. If everything from Double Fine looked like a Scott Campbell cartoon come to life I think I would be less interested in them as a studio long-term. I think part of Double Fine's "problem" (not quite the right word) is that their games don't have anything tangible for outsiders to grab on to. If you don't already know about the team's legacy of originality and quality from Tim's LucasArts days, or from happening upon one of their past releases, their big name games don't give you a strong hook to hold on to other than "whoa this is weird looking!" I think there is a balance they can strike where the game has some inlets for people who haven't already bought in, while still offering a unique feeling that you don't get from any other developer (Costume Quest is a great example of this).

 

I can not and will not play point-and-click adventure games, but I loved Stacking. I think Stacking is a great example of a way to bring new audiences in while still offering what the studio is known for. It's a point-and-click adventure that requires no pointing and clicking. 

[Udvarnoky]

I think part of Double Fine's "problem" (not quite the right word) is that their games don't have anything tangible for outsiders to grab on to. If you don't already know about the team's legacy of originality and quality from Tim's LucasArts days, or from happening upon one of their past releases, their big name games don't give you a strong hook to hold on to other than "whoa this is weird looking!" I think there is a balance they can strike where the game has some inlets for people who haven't already bought in, while still offering a unique feeling that you don't get from any other developer (Costume Quest is a great example of this).

 

I remember you making a similar point when we were all examining the corpse of Psychonauts' expensive yet ultimately useless marketing campaign at the hands of Majesco.  You pointed out that despite the "wackiness" of the game (which along with the pre-celebrity marquee "Tim Schafer" seemed to be the entire throughline of the campaign), the game was in fact infused with compelling "inlets" like being able to stomp around a city as a Godzilla-sized giant or setting things on fire with your mind, that might have been more profitably played up when it came time to connect with the broader audience, and were certainly not included in the game by Schafer and co. in the first place accidentally. 

 

I think if Double Fine appears less concerned with this nowadays, it might be that they don't need to be.  The fact that all of their games have been turning a modest profit is a pretty clarifying statistic, as is the money Massive Chalice appears to have almost effortlessly raised.  There's apparently enough people who want to see something weird-looking from this particular team of developers.  They might do well to pursue the balance you speak of but on the other hand, what they've seemingly pulled off right now - being able to make the games they want and making enough from them to keep the lights on - is pretty much the whole objective.  They did it.

[I_smell]

There's some good talk about Massive Challice from Brad on this week's DOTA podcast.