Feminism

[Twig]

That just sounds like a cop out to me -- just because a story is fantastical doesn't mean it can ignore social issues.

Okay, but that's not at all what I said! Batman is a universe full of absolutely inane and stupid bullshit and will never be the right place to address these kinds of issues, and as a result should completely remove them. Not ignore them. Remove them. There's literally no reason for the thugs in AC to call Catwoman "bitch" except for the excuse that "well that's the kind of thing that happens in real life". And so a Batman story, being focused around Batman, a guy running around in cape and underwear, whose archnemesis is a clown, has no reason to contain the word "bitch" because it is not the right place to address such issues.

 

I guess it doesn't help that I think superheroes are fucking stupid in the first place. Not to say I don't enjoy some good stupidity every now and then, but by their very stupid nature... etc.

 

Also, as I said in that post you quoted, I could totally see a superhero story that was able to handle any given social issue well. Just not one with all the baggage of the typical DC/Marvel universe superhero.

[SecretAsianMan]

Sorry for all the spoilers/dumb setup shit, but it's kind of necessary for the actually serious question.  The spoiler is completely unimportant to the story so I'm not going to bother tagging it.

 

So I beat Arkham City last night.  At one point during the Catwoman section, she promises Poison Ivy that she'll retrieve her plant from a vault in exchange for her help breaking into said vault (hooray insane comic/video game premises).  After you break into the vault, if you interact with the plant, Catwoman purposely drops the plant on the ground and steps on it.  My first thought after seeing this was "Man, Catwoman really is a bitch".  Is that an inappropriate use of the word?

[Ben X]

It's more inappropriate than calling her an arsehole, because it's a gendered insult and contributes to/normalises etc.

[Bjorn]

The game turned you, it made you into what it wanted, a Catwoman hating misogynist.  This is the eternal struggle.  Batman must resist becoming that which he fights, and so must the player.

[SecretAsianMan]

But I actually like playing as Catwoman...  

[Reyturner]

It strikes me that so many gendered insults directed at women are attributing animal qualities: bitch, nag, cow, shrew, cougar, etc. I'm guessing the power behind these insults is that they are directed at the subject's presumed suitability as a mate to a man. Similarly, gendered compliments are typically aimed at how much a man wants to fuck or marry the subject.

This tells me that the power of these insults only exists within the patriarchy and, as such, are ripe for reclaiming.

Slut, cunt and the like only strike me as objectification and don't really seem like words that can or should be positive. I feel as though it's like trying to reclaim "slave".

Or maybe that's all bullshit. I dunno, I'm pretty bad at this stuff.

[Twig]

The idea of "reclaiming" a word that was only ever an insult seems really weird to me.

[Reyturner]

Well, if the sting of the insult comes from attacking the subject's suitability for occupying a subordinate role in a poisonous hierarchy, then making that a positive quality undermines that hierarchy.

[Twig]

I understand the goal, but I don't see how it can ever be done. "Nigger", for example, has been adopted as a general term for "other person" by a subset of the African American community.

 

But if anyone else uses it, it's still just super incredibly offensive in all ways and OH MY GOD you are going to hell!! Can a word ever be drained of its negative connotation if it was only ever negative to begin with?

[Reyturner]

Well, "nigger", when used by racists, is almost always, explicitly or implicitly, paired with "uppity" i.e. "you don't know your place within the white supremacists hierarchy". Similarly "one of the good ones" as a compliment implies that they do.

African Americans using it with affection also carries the message "fuck white supremacy". "Anyone else" (aka white people) using it with affection carries the message "I deny the existence of white supremacy" even if it isn't the intent.

[Twig]

Right. That's exactly my point. It'll never be drained of its negative connotation, no matter how much people want it to be. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be. But I don't see it happening.

[Reyturner]

Well "to reclaim" means the removal from of something from the wrongful owner to the rightful on, in this case from white people to black people. They want to slap the club out of the racist's hand. As long as white supremacy exists, its use by white people is a denial of that right of reclamation and by extension either the denial that racism exists or that it's bad.

Reclaiming it doesn't remove its power, but it forces others to acknowledge that malignant source of that power.

And acknowledging a problem is the first step to solving it.

[Thrik]

Well "to reclaim" means the removal from of something from the wrongful owner to the rightful on, in this case from white people to black people. They want to slap the club out of the racist's hand. As long as white supremacy exists, its use by white people is a denial of that right of reclamation and by extension either the denial that racism exists or that it's bad.

Reclaiming it doesn't remove its power, but it forces others to acknowledge that malignant source of that power.

And acknowledging a problem is the first step to solving it.

 

A side-effect of this line of thinking is that it ends up used by people of all races — including white — because its widespread casual use has normalised it as a generic term for a bro and caused it to be picked up by kids at school who would never have otherwise done so.

There's a point where attempts to reclaim a term actually just extend its life rather than let it die. Is that the goal?

[Reyturner]

Denial of racism is just as bad as taking part in it. Racism is like water, flowing and crashing until it's dried up.

It doesn't stop being bad because it changes shape, but you might have to adjust your approach.

[Bjorn]

Right. That's exactly my point. It'll never be drained of its negative connotation, no matter how much people want it to be. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to be. But I don't see it happening.

 

It doesn't have to be completely drained of any negativity, it just has to gain additional meaning, context or use. 

 

 

Slut, cunt and the like only strike me as objectification and don't really seem like words that can or should be positive. I feel as though it's like trying to reclaim "slave".

Or maybe that's all bullshit. I dunno, I'm pretty bad at this stuff.

 

Cunt, twat and pussy are actually all words for a thing though, the same way that dick and cock are words for a thing.  Dick and cock can be insults, but men can also speak very positively, even lovingly, about their genitalia in a way that women often can't.  I agree with Dan Savage's take that objectification is only bad when it is unwanted and happening all the time.  Sometimes what we want is to be temporarily objectified.

 

Much like conversations about race with white people talking, I think it can be really hard for men to take a hard stance about what should and shouldn't happen here.  We are not the ones harmed by the patriarchy, we are not the ones who grow up as the targets of this language and tone.  And if there are women out there who want to try and reclaim some of these words, to change them, and in so doing change the culture, I feel an obligation to support them. 

 

Here's an article about one of the friends I mentioned.  Fired from a job, had custody and visitation with her daughter almost stripped away from her, has been harassed, and called every name you can imagine (online and to her face).  All because she's a slut who loves sex and won't be quiet or shamed about it.   If you're curious, you can find articles written about her where the comments sections are turned on.  Quite frankly these commenters make video game commenters look tame and respectful.  So she's pretty much heard every hateful thing a woman can have said to her.  To paraphrase something she's said, even the act of trying to reclaim these words takes the power away from them.  And one of the things you have to do to make progress in some areas is to disempower the haters and their words.  Look at the shift in gay marriage, the words opponents of gays have used for years simply don't have the power that they used to.  Because those people don't have the power they used to.  Calling a man a cocksucker used to be a really bad thing to say to him.  Not so much now. 

[Twig]

I guess when you get down to it, the only thing I really have issue with is the name: "reclaim". Which is silly so I'll shut up now.

[Argobot]

A few years ago when "Slut Walks" were a popular organizing event there was a lot of really interesting writing on the desire to reappropriate terms like "slut" and if it's even possible to disassociate those words from their negative connotation. For anyone who is interested, Feminist Frequency has a great roundup on the issue: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/05/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/

 

I personally don't see any value in reclaiming the word slut. It's a useful word to toss out as a way to shock your audience and get them to pay attention, but I don't think using that word will majorly change how female sexuality is viewed by the public.

[Ben X]

Do you think that reclaiming "nigger"/"nigga" had any value? If so, why not "slut" too?

[Stuart]

Do you think that reclaiming "nigger"/"nigga" had any value? If so, why not "slut" too?

 

No one has reclaimed "nigger", unless, well, you're talking about racist people, so you're heavily misinformed there. "Nigga" on the other hand is something the Black community appropriated and transformed in meaning. On the whole "slut" thing, I feel that word has too much negative history for it to be reclaimed as a positive thing. Stick with non-gendered insults, or at least justify that your character is a sexist asshole well enough that they will use it during dialogue. 

[Patrick R]

I see "slut" as a neutral descriptive word. It's just that the thing it's describing (someone who is sexually promiscuous) has historically been looked down upon. I wouldn't casually call someone else a slut, because it'd be too easy for them to think I'm being negative. But I can understand someone finding the word sexually liberating. In fact I know several people who use the word slut to describe themselves for that specific reason.

 

Unlike a word like n****, which has never had positive meanings. The subversion of that word has been more about people finding community in being identified as "n****s". 

[Twig]

That seems like a really arbitrary distinction to make. Why is slut a neutral descriptive word? Is it just because you WANT it to be? Was there ever a time when it WASN'T used pejoratively?

[clyde]

Here is an experiment.
Think of something that can be attributed to you that you know people can use in public to discredit or embarrass you. Basically, think of something that you would be afraid of someone calling you in front of the person who signs your pay-check or a group of people who might do you harm. I try to use this as a not completely unsatisfactory equivalent when considering these issues. I think the impact of these terms are often discussed as if anyone of any race or gender is capable of understanding the power-dynamics that are involved; I don't believe this is the case. Because of my life experiences, because of the way I identify the power-relationship between myself and the world around me, there are certain words that alert me when hearing. There are words that make some part of my lizard-brain say "You are about to be physically attacked". That's how I try to think of pejoratives that involve institutional power-dynamics, as threats that don't apply to me but do apply to others in severe ways due to their own experiences.

[Problem Machine]

That seems like a really arbitrary distinction to make. Why is slut a neutral descriptive word? Is it just because you WANT it to be? Was there ever a time when it WASN'T used pejoratively?

Even aside from active attempts at reclamation, I've certainly seen it used playfully between friends before. I guess it's uncommon to see it used without pejorative bias by someone from an outside group?

[Patrick R]

Not many pejorative words have actual specific meanings. Most slurs have vague meanings or no meaning at all, outside of "You are a ." Slut has a specific meaning, and I find it to be morally neutral. I don't think it's moral or immoral to have a lot of sex with a lot of people. It's just a choice. 

 

Another example is fat. Fat is a descriptive word. Most people automatically assume fat=bad when used, but it doesn't have to be. A lot of people proudly self-identify as fat. As someone who is attracted to fat people, I don't think calling someone fat is automatically pejorative. But unless you know that that person self-identifies as fat it'd be really rude to call them that. My partner self-identifies as fat and likes being fat and I describe them as fat positively frequently. Fat isn't immoral or moral. It just is.

 

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, what fat is is subjective. As is slut. Hence the need for people to self-identify first.

[Bjorn]

Was there ever a time when it WASN'T used pejoratively?

 

The last 20ish years, at a minimum.  Embracing slut as a positive descriptor of sexuality is not that radically new. 

 

Why does it bother you so much that some people wish to use it in neutral or positive ways?  What's a good slang term for someone who is promiscuous, and safe, healthy and happy with that decision? 

 

Just like what was mentioned earlier in this thread about how some races adopting a version of a racial slur is essentially a big middle-finger to the culture that repressed them, self-identifying as a slut is a big middle-finger to the sexually repressive elements of culture. 

 

You can also think about nerd and geek, two C-grade insults used to harass and bully a lot of people like us 20 years ago.  Now these are badges of honor, words of self-identification, titles of pride.  In a surprisingly short amount of times, these words went from having little to know positive connotations to being arguably the defining words of a generation.  And look what happened to nerdy/geeky interests in that time.  Comics, video games, fantasy.  Out of the ghetto and into the mainstream.  There are numerous examples of pejoratives switching sides.