Feminism

[Bjorn]

I've just finally got around to starting to watch the Tropes vs Women series, and am quite enjoying them even if I already know most of it.  Wondered what Sarkeesian had been up to since no new vids have gone up for awhile.

https://twitter.com/femfreq/statuses/433339610131734528
 
Those sound fascinating, and perhaps more enlightening than the Damsels in Distress series, which covered pretty well tread ground.

[BadHat]

rofl

 

https://twitter.com/jordanowen42/status/433521436754333698

[Twig]

wow that dude has a hairy neck

[Merus]

So there's a big shitstorm brewing over in speculative fiction - basically the whole thing was kicked off by the trade organisation magazine putting a chainmail bikini warrior on its 200th issue, and an article inside about lady editors essentially ranking them on their attractiveness. The authors in question used their next column to complain about how unfairly they're being treated by 'anonymous' 'commentators' who want to 'censor' them. Naturally, this was a bad idea. It all blew up, there is a timeline here.

 

So fast forward to recently and there's still discontent from the misogynist camp over the 'censorship' of the magazine, and a bunch of them were complaining about these people 'forcing their agenda' on people. They unfortunately had some difficulty with the idea that everything they said was public, and had then been published. Notable: Raymond Feist was one of the people involved, which would be a shame if I actually cared about any of his stuff (Magician was decent, but these days I'd probably point young nerds to a lot of other authors first); Hugo award winner Mary Robinette Kowal is painted as a hypocrite for being a feminist while wearing attractive clothing, and dismissed as no-one they need to know about.

 

My favourite bit, and what seems to have made the whole thing into a massive shitstorm: one of the people involved, a man named Sean Fodera who is apparently a buyer for Macmillan, declared that he had been 'taken out of context' despite the article linking to his posts, that the article was 'libel' and that he planned on suing everyone who had linked to it.

 

 

The Streisand Effect kicked in at that point.

[Bjorn]

Okay, that explains a whole lot to me about my Facebook feed recently. There have been some crazy long and clearly passionate discussions of late about feminism and sexim in SF, but I hadn't had a chance to dig in to see what the origin the sudden escalation was. 

[Hermie]

I can't get over the fact that his name is almost Sean Fedora.

[Twig]

Fuck I was actually reading it as Fedora before you pointed out that it's not.

 

Fuck.

 

Can I go back to my world where that is his name? HOW DO I DO THIS.

[Merus]

I can't get over the fact that his name is almost Sean Fedora.

 

Noted science fiction author Peter Nuckbeard

[Roderick]

And his colleague, Sandra Swaetervest.

[Problem Machine]

Okay that was the main thing I wanted to point out too. That's basically gold. Sometimes life is its own best satire.

 

But, anyway, the other thing that kind of bothered me was the blanket characterization as 'misogynists' in Merus's post. I'm not super familiar with the circumstances, and though the position of this group is certainly gross is misogynist, as a statement of position, actually accurate? I worry that terms like this sometimes get tossed around too easily and unnecessarily polarize debates...

 

Oh but hey here's another interesting and thread-relevant thing: Brenna Hillier on Deep Down's lack of female player option

[Merus]

Okay that was the main thing I wanted to point out too. That's basically gold. Sometimes life is its own best satire.

 

But, anyway, the other thing that kind of bothered me was the blanket characterization as 'misogynists' in Merus's post. I'm not super familiar with the circumstances, and though the position of this group is certainly gross is misogynist, as a statement of position, actually accurate? I worry that terms like this sometimes get tossed around too easily and unnecessarily polarize debates...

 

Whoops! Wrong link, here's the correct one: http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/sfwa-sexism-sci-fi-nebulas-mary-kowal/

 

I think the characterisation is accurate; there's an undercurrent here that these people can't be holding real opinions.

[Problem Machine]

It may be, indeed. I'm just wary of tarring groups of people with a broad brush. Frequently, even if the characterization is valid, it can throw the discourse off track, from "you're doing a shitty thing" to "you are a shitty person". Anyway, just a thought.

[Bjorn]

Good lord, that stuff is ridiculous now that I've read some of it. 

 

Fodera criticized a female author as being a hypocrite for being both anti-sexism and having sexy modeling photos on her personal site.  He says that the same author is an unperson, unworthy of even being acknowledged and compares her to a dog. 

 

There are misogynists in that thread.  Are all of them personally misogynistic, no.  But when you ally yourself with misogynists, when you support them, when you make their causes your own...well, what other word should be used.

[Jake]

My mental image of Clyde was completely inaccurate in almost every way. Apart from the hat. And the probable interest in jazz timings.

Anyway, a Twitchfilm columnist protests against The Lego Movie's conflicting messages:

"The LEGO Movie deserves to be an equal-opportunity inspiration. But a movie that has been, in part, about the importance of stepping outside the rule set to use construction toys to explore creativity, concludes with a joke about how there are some rules that aren't made to be broken: like how girls really suck at LEGO."

(Destroy All Monsters: Girls and Lego)

Ehhhhhh. The joke was that she's a toddler who plays (presumably destructively) with Duplo, then her creations were revealed to be not destructive, but already more surreal and interesting than her brother's or father's Lego stuff.

[Snow]

When there is no distinction between the way you talk about women and the the way a misogynist talks about women... some introspection might be in order.

Oh but hey here's another interesting and thread-relevant thing: Brenna Hillier on Deep Down's lack of female player option

 

It's certainly interesting that a free-to-play game that's, at least presumably, going to have micro-transactions in the form of player customization is omitting female characters.

 

That said, I can't take this writer seriously. She reprimanded people for not spending their money on a game (DmC) they didn't want to play. 

[clyde]

David Gaider writes about some of his thoughts and feelings that are part of his process when including bi-sexual characters and non-heterosexual romances.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/2/18/5422570/the-lead-writer-of-dragon-age-on-the-first-steps-towards-inclusive

[James]

Ehhhhhh. The joke was that she's a toddler who plays (presumably destructively) with Duplo, then her creations were revealed to be not destructive, but already more surreal and interesting than her brother's or father's Lego stuff.

I saw the Lego Movie with my sister and nephew on Saturday.

I'd been bracing myself for something uncomfortable after seeing what Justin Leego quoted, but I (admittedly, a man), didn't find the closing gag particularly problematic. I guess the bigger criticism is that it missed an easy opportunity for a more progressive message: if the genders of the children had been swapped, it all would still have worked (a boy toddler would be just as disruptive as a girl toddler), and it would have carried an additional positive implicit message. Still, I was expecting much more of an affront.

[Merus]

David Gaider writes about some of his thoughts and feelings that are part of his process when including bi-sexual characters and non-heterosexual romances.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/2/18/5422570/the-lead-writer-of-dragon-age-on-the-first-steps-towards-inclusive

 

I am enjoying how GW2 is handling its characters - right now, the 'iconic' characters, those that the main characters chiefly interact with in the storylines, would be a veritable Burger Kids' Club of diversity if they hadn't been introduced with an eye to how they're serving the story first. The only real kerfuffle is that two of the women are dating, but even then it seems like a minority because the more prevalent reaction is that putting Marjory, who acts like she's the star of a noir film, in discussions involving feelings and curtains and romance is hilarious. There is also a disabled girl, who has a battle robot and is a manipulative little shit.

[Ben X]

Dammit you guys, I haven't seen the Lego Movie yet! Don't spoil the closing gag (plus the fact that

humans are in it

- is this reveal part of the gag?)!

 

EDIT: yeah, this was a big spoiler.

[Merus]

Yeaaaaaaah, it's a spoiler.

 

In Australia, we get it in April, guys, thanks. (I thought that was bullshit, especially since Animal Logic made the bloody thing, so I, uh, solved it the Australian/Caribbean way.)

 

I read Wyldstyle's purpose a little differently; Emmett is a conformist to a fault, and the consequences of that are shown very early on. Wyldstyle is individualist to a fault, and the movie spends about half its running time unpacking why that's a problem as well. I agree that the gender balance is a little screwed, but I saw the final gag as a crack on Duplo rather than on girls not being trusted to build things.

[Ben X]

Well, I'm not usually one to say that feminist issues get talked about too much, but when it starts spoiling movies for me, it's gone TOO FAR.

[Ben X]

I just saw The Lego Movie. I didn't enjoy it very much, but I disagree with that article on a few points. It is correct that the film doesn't have very many female characters, and the one or two it does have are not developed at all, but then none of the characters in this film is developed - they're either blank-slates, single-jokes or archetypes. The most interesting character, bizarrely, is Batman.

 

And I'd definitely agree with Jake's reading over the article's, although I think it's really just a simple joke -

Duplo being the new enemy

- which doesn't play or depend on gender at all. I think the article's well off on that one, plus it misreports it a little iirc -

the mother doesn't ask if the sister can play, the father just says she will be able to as a matter-of-fact positive thing

. It also says that

Unikitty is presumably what happens when you leave a girl with Lego, when it's pretty clear that Unikitty was made by the boy as part of the "anything goes" land,

which actually seems quite progressive.

 

I do agree that it's a missed opportunity for female characters, plus I applaud the article for putting a spoiler warning at the top

[Justin Leego]

Yes, you're right, I should have spoilered that post (now edited in).

And for context I should have indicated that the general tone of the article was not table flipping rage but closer to disappointment at select aspects.

Also I should have not succeeded in accidentally irking you again, Ben. Again!

Please accept my apologies.

Glad to hear that the author's interpretation is not universally shared, great news for a progressive Lego!

[clyde]

Great comments in response to this Riendeau opinion piece. I'm addicted to watching crowds of individuals becoming aware that other people exist. It's like watching a plant grow or something.

[SilentBtAmazing]

As I am on a phone I am tempted to mass-quote BenX above but yeah definitely agree with him and Jake (Jake and him? He and jake? Fuck you undereducated internal English teacher!)

Anyway I think your points are well made. In a world where so much stuff is questionable I really don't see any reason to give even that soft amount of grief to a movie (for kids!!) that has a pretty nuanced take on conformity etc

Particularly when you consider the co-lead is a non-weak/passive female.

This seems like a fun place to share an anecdote: after we saw this movie, my daughter demanded a new set of LEGOs and has been showing me her designs. Female empowerment? Super clever advertising? Both?

Eh who cares, I am glad to see her trying this stuff out.