Feminism

[Twig]

I'm honestly surprised there's so much confusion? The article makes perfect sense to me as meaning exactly what Markson said. It's yet another double-standard. I know guys who dress up slightly more and slightly less than other guys, and of course nobody's gonna comment. (Except that one time my friend wore white slacks with white shoes and a white shirt and we all made fun of him! But actually he looked good it was just out of nowhere, anyway, I'm rambling.) But the second a woman dresses differently...

 

Yeah I don't understand the confusion!

[feelthedarkness]

you're friends with Kingpin?! 

[Gaizokubanou]

I'm honestly surprised there's so much confusion? The article makes perfect sense to me as meaning exactly what Markson said. It's yet another double-standard. I know guys who dress up slightly more and slightly less than other guys, and of course nobody's gonna comment. (Except that one time my friend wore white slacks with white shoes and a white shirt and we all made fun of him! But actually he looked good it was just out of nowhere, anyway, I'm rambling.) But the second a woman dresses differently...

 

Yeah I don't understand the confusion!

 

I thought article wasn't about double standard, but about uniformity of the group makeup.  The problem isn't that guys get away with 'dressing up' while she didn't.  Problem is that nobody seem to dress up or down and creates this sort of flat uniformity.

[Twig]

I think you either accidentally skipped over or ignored a significant point of the article.

 

you're friends with Kingpin?! 

 

Haha, well, it wasn't a suit, so much as something you might see in a USA television series that takes place in Miami.

[Gaizokubanou]

I think you either accidentally skipped over or ignored a significant point of the article.

 

Geez Twig, sorry but can you point out where she said that other dudes went unnoticed with dressing differently in ways she didn't?

[Twig]

The bit about the PR guys not liking women dressing up because they don't want to look like they're selling sex? I dunno man that's pretty significant.

[Gaizokubanou]

The bit about the PR guys not liking women dressing up because they don't want to look like they're selling sex? I dunno man that's pretty significant.

 

Where is the bit about the guys dressing up?  Nobody dresses up, that's what I thought the article is getting at.

[Twig]

...okay

[clyde]

From my experience there is a dress code in the industry, but mainly it boils down to don't wear a suit and be clean. Personally I think the reason for all the similar dress is mainly that it's easy and up until reading that article I figured wouldn't put anyone off. This is one of those articles I read and ask, so what is to be done? I'm pretty much the guy she is describing in this article, and I only make those wardrobe choices because they are easy and comfortable, without making me looke like a slob.

 

I don't know what your personal circumstances are, and I should mention that I dress like a lazy lumberjack with an unhealthy fondness for large pockets (and I hang my keys from my belt-loop with a carabiner that wouldn't be able to sustain my load), but I love the idea that this article could encourage some people who dress pragmatically to take some fashion risks. That could be fun. If it sounds like something you would enjoy doing, read a few fashion articles or watch a youtube video about it. Maybe you'll pick up a fashion tip that excites you. It can be fun to get a new look and go into public, it's thrilling.

[Gaizokubanou]

...okay

 

This is the closest story to where you said "bit about PR guy not liking women dressing up because they don't want to look like they're selling sex".  It wasn't stated as a PR guy (that's assumed by Markson) nor did he say he didn't want her to dress up.  I'm not sure how you even got your version from this.

 

I was once told by a seasoned industry professional that they were reluctant to let myself and a female colleague stream video together as they didn’t want to look like they were “selling sex”.

 

Which is messed up but it's messed up because he didn't want two women to stream, not because he the author was dissuaded from dressing up (which is what rest of the article focuses on).

[itsamoose]

Where is the bit about the guys dressing up? Nobody dresses up, that's what I thought the article is getting at.

It seemed like the article was going over both points from my reading. Basically reinforcing the idea that you are free to wear what you want, until it stands out too much or puts someone off, then it's an issue.

Also the PR guy's comment was probably motivated by good reasons. On my last game when we had a decision to make we would sometimes stop and say "so is this going to end up on an episode of feminist frequency?". We were really worried about accidentally doing something sexist, which I would guess was what the PR person wanted to avoid.

[itsamoose]

I don't know what your personal circumstances are, and I should mention that I dress like a lazy lumberjack with an unhealthy fondness for large pockets (and I hang my keys from my belt-loop with a carabiner that wouldn't be able to sustain my load), but I love the idea that this article could encourage some people who dress pragmatically to take some fashion risks. That could be fun. If it sounds like something you would enjoy doing, read a few fashion articles or watch a youtube video about it. Maybe you'll pick up a fashion tip that excites you. It can be fun to get a new look and go into public, it's thrilling.

I probably should put more effort into my wardrobe, but to be honest fashion is the one thing I just can't bring myself to care about.

[Gaizokubanou]

Also the PR guy's comment was probably motivated by good reasons.

 

We don't know if that person was PR It was an "seasoned industry professional".  Damn you Markson for giving this person a specific job title! XD

 

I probably should put more effort into my wardrobe, but to be honest fashion is the one thing I just can't bring myself to care about.

 

Wear what you want that doesn't offend people for right reasons (I mean they would be right to be offended).  If people started to get worried about how they dressed because of this article I think the author would be very sad cause she wants the opposite to be true, where one can freely express themselves with their clothes without worrying about negative repercussion.

[Reyturner]

I feel like fashion has a similar relationship with the tech industry as religion does: something that's plays a deeply important role in a lot of peoples lives, but not in the lives of the general population of the tech industry (ie: young, white, middle class guys).

 

The second paragraph stood out to me: 

 

It was the night of my very first launch party. I’d just finished my internship at a video games TV channel and I was going through the familiar routine of choosing an outfit. In other words I was trying on everything in my own wardrobe as well as the wardrobes of all my flatmates. I eventually decided on something I’d been saving for a special occasion: a patterned mid-length dress with black panels down the side. I sent a photo of it to the colleague who’d invited me, but her replied surprised me: “It’s lovely, but a bit too dressy for tonight.” I wore it anyway.

 

She phrases this in such a way that I suspect the response it is supposed to elicit is "yes, your are describing getting ready for a special occasion, like you do". The closest thing the process she's describing I've ever experienced is a recurring anxiety dream I've had over the years. I've literally never put this much thought into anything I've ever worn, including the wedding ring I wear every day. This isn't something I'm bragging about, I just cannot muster the interest. This is not a good quality to have but I suspect it is not unique amongst guys in tech. 

 

I wear jeans or cargo shorts and a short sleeved collared shirt or a t-shirt because I don't have to wear anything dressier and I'm perfectly happy to have that decision made for me. Denim / khaki and a short sleeved shirts are affordable, comfortable in a climate controlled environment where I'll primarily be working at a computer or attending meetings, and practical in that they offer a full range of movement and don't require any special consideration when wearing a jacket if it rains or something. They do all the things I need cloths to do. 

 

Of course, we're not just talking about clothing, we're talking about Fashion. In Fashion you Wear (with a capital W) a statement. You communicate what you want people to know about who you are, where you stand and how you feel. Communicating through fashion is as rich as any other language, but it largely falls on deaf ears when it comes to tech guys. Tech guy clothing is not Fashion. Tech guy clothing is basically the fashion equivalent of atheism. Most tech guys don't Wear anything the way they don't Believe in anything, which isn't the same as wearing or believing in nothing.

 

Coming into games as a fashion concious 19yo must be a hell of a culture shock. Moving into games after living in a monastery would probably be similar. How could entering a culture where something you value and which deeply informs your world view is largely absent, if not outright mocked, be otherwise? How could abandoning it to fit in be anything but damaging?

 

And of course, like religion, there is a fair share of people in tech who seethe with a gleeful disdain for fashion, who consider an interest in it a failing of character and are very willing to pontification these views at the slightest provocation. Fashion has a lot of cultural heritage and a VERY significant relationship with patriarchy; it is considered feminine and, as such, unsuitable for a man to express outward interest in. It is impossible to separate a disdain, or even a lack of interest, for fashion from patriarchal influences. I acknowledge that my gut reaction is not free of this influence. When she was approached by the "seasoned veteran", I read the interaction as a guy who has no idea how to parse fashion doing it best not to make people upset for reasons he doesn't understand. Of course this interaction is loaded with significance and emotion beyond the "seasoned vet's" ken. It's the thoughtless harm commonly inflicted by unconscious sexism.

 

Of course, I’m not saying that the whole industry needs a makeover, but it has to be more welcoming toward different concepts of style and identity. Creativity begins with how we feel and how we see and present ourselves as people. This industry isn’t just dressing identically, it draws its inspiration from the same music, movies and books. This homogeneity leads to staid ideas.

 

This is the meat of the issue right here. Tech in general is largely a monoculture that values nothing it can't make on its own. It can only be improved by new ideas and the guys involved need to learn to value things beyond the ability to output work that resembles only other work in the same industry. 

 

That being said: 

 

I now happily wear my floral A-line dress to video game events, and yes, I do stand out, but that’s fine. In an industry that lacks it, difference is a good thing to have.

 

She's perfectly free to express herself in tech. Everywhere I've worked there have always been people who broke the mold, not always women, not always artists, and, in my experience, they've always contributed above and beyond the "output" they're been assigned to produce along with their fellows. I and most other a-fashion-ist guys, given the opportunity, are happy to work with people with interests and experiences beyond our own.

 

But I'm still going to wear jeans and plaid. 

[Problem Machine]

Hey this is tangential but uh

why plaid

plaid is ugly

solid colors 4 lyfe

[Markson]

Damn you Markson for giving this person a specific job title! XD

 

Ooops! Haha, yeah you're right it was "a seasoned industry professional" and not a PR person. My bad!

 

Either way though, someone in her company made her feel like she was dressing for other people instead of just for herself, which sucks to say the least.

[Ben X]

I think another big point of the article, which I haven't seen anyone here summarise (correct me if I'm wrong on either point), is that if the industry standard is dressing like the average 20-40 yr old middle class white male, that probably reflects the fact that the industry is mostly made up of that demographic.

[twmac]

So, then, as a counter point to this Kitty Powers' Matchmaker should be a breath of fresh air?

 

http://www.magicnotion.com/matchmaker/

[Bjorn]

Sure, I expect Republicans and conservatives to say dumb shit.  But it's always nice to see someone carrying on the family legacy of saying dumb shit.

 

Jeb Bush: "The problem with hypotheticals is two-fold. One, when I was governor I got to -- I felt it a duty, I didn't have to -- to call all the family members of people who lost their lives and I don't remember the total number but it was easily over 100. And I felt it a duty to do that because I admired the sacrifice of their families. And I admired the men and women -- mostly men -- that made the ultimate sacrifice. So, going back in time and talking about hypotheticals -- what would have happened what could have happened, I think, does a disservice for them."

 

Oh, you mean a disservice like brushing aside the women who have been killed while serving their country?

[Tanukitsune]

Please tell me this a real thing:

 

[BigJKO]

It's a joke, stolen from this guy.

[Markson]

I don't understand the Meninist twitter account. It's a parody, right? They broadcast themselves as a parody, anyway, in their bio.

 

But I've also been told that it's a totally serious account and a bad thing. And doesn't the parody go over a lot of folks' heads or something? I remember when the account was first created, it seemed like such an obvious parody of MRAs to me...but everyone took it so seriously.

 

I'm also pretty bad at reading tone on the internet though, so maybe that was me.

[clyde]

Here's an interesting intersection between feminism, the war on poverty, and on law-enforcement.

Note: There are some horrific anecdotes in this one involving rape.

 

[twmac]

That talk almost made me burst into tears at work.

 

That is fucking painful.

[richardco]

I don't understand the Meninist twitter account. It's a parody, right? They broadcast themselves as a parody, anyway, in their bio.

 

But I've also been told that it's a totally serious account and a bad thing. And doesn't the parody go over a lot of folks' heads or something? I remember when the account was first created, it seemed like such an obvious parody of MRAs to me...but everyone took it so seriously.

 

I'm also pretty bad at reading tone on the internet though, so maybe that was me.

 

There's little difference between bad parody and the subject they mean to parody.  And they should probably be treated the same.