Life

[Thrik]

What they probably mean is that it's not so much your coding proficiency that's of paramount importance, but the impression of your personality that you give. You want to be exuding total confidence in your ability to tackle or learn to tackle any problem, while also giving off that you're a generally great guy and showing bags of enthusiasm. I know that these are obvious things to mention, but a lot of people (especially developers) don't realise how short of doing this they fall. I've seen some legitimately great developers go through endless interviews because they just don't sell themselves well enough — and even in the technical world of development, this is more often than not all about personality.

 

My last two jobs didn't ask me to do any coding at all prior to an offer. Being able to verbally demonstrate detailed knowledge about technical concepts and getting into small tangents about various technologies did a lot of the work; showing shitloads of sincere enthusiasm and excitement about my trade did the rest. I guess coding tests are inevitable with some jobs, but really they should be to just meet a minimum requirement and show that you can actually cope with straightforward tasks. I don't know about your skills but I'd imagine you're hitting that mark, so it's probably more about the other stuff. Fortunately, changing how others perceive you can be quite easy — after all, they know nothing about you apart from what you say and what your body language is like!

[Henroid]

Most of my things are packed, I just need to throw away some frivolous boxes / packaging / paper and pack my computer up tomorrow. And then three days driving to California.

I was kinda reluctant to go in the first place but being back home in the Bay Area after all these years in Texas, which has lead to a lot of culture shock in my own freaking country, is going to be really comforting.

[Twig]

You say all that, Thrik, but it doesn't really mean anything, I'm sorry to say. I'm aware I need to exude confidence, I'm aware I need to have an attractive personality, and I try and try and try and time and time and time again I'm told to fuck off, so it leaves me wondering why do I even bother, at this point. Over 30 companies/recruiters have told me no or just stopped contacting me in the past month and a half. I've got four potential leads left.

 

One of which I'm probably going to fuck up, because the programming test is sorta difficult - I'm working on it right now - and by difficult I mean I can do it, but perhaps not in the most efficient way.

 

One of which I will literally hate if I have to work there.

 

One of which I have an on-site interview next week, so that's probably my best bet at this point.

 

One of which I don't really know, but based on the previous 30, why should I be optimistic?

 

I'm very good at pretending to be excited, or at least I thought I was, but I'm ready to give up at this point. I know I'm a good programmer, but it doesn't matter if no one wants to give me a chance. If all four of these fail me, I have nothing left besides waiting for yet another recruiter to link me to yet another dead end. And moving back to Ohio to live with my parents.

[Thrik]

Have you asked any of the companies that turned you down for specific feedback on what led to their decision (you should)? Has anything come up that you'd agree with?

 

It's hard to say why you're not having much success, but if you've had that many interviews without any hits then it seems likely that you're doing something wrong. That's not a statement about your skills or even what you're like as a person, but simply how you play the game that is interviews (which like most people I hate, but am pretty good at).

 

What about experience, do you have much? If not, how do you present that so it doesn't sound so bad? (For developers, involvement with personal/community projects is a good asset.)

[dibs]

In addition to what Thrik saud above, Have you had anyone look over your CV? I thought mine was shit got, but when a friend have it an overhaul it really started to shine. Also, do you customise for each job? Give them back exactly what is in the job spec.

Also, for confidence, I faked it till I maked it and eventually it sorta eventually just stuck. You have a few years(?) experience now - for a lot of employers your programming acumen will be a given, but they will want to have someone who can step up to challenges and add positively to the work pool and the office environment.

As an exercise rewrite you last post with confidence that the previous setbacks were due to a tight job market and your 4 prospects are all possible winners.

[Twig]

I've got a year of experience (in mobile, which is where most of my applications go even though I have zero interest in mobile, just because that's where most of my recruiters go!), as well as a master's. I often fumble when given whiteboard questions, but I figure it out eventually, and I used to think I communicated my thought process well. Maybe I don't.

 

Also I should clarify, I haven't had 30 interviews. I've had 30 rejections. Some are just non-responses, some are "hey let's do an introductory phone conversation" after which I get no further response, so I don't blame myself for those. I've gotten into technical interviews with about 10 companies, I'd say. Some more in-depth than others. Only one on-site interview so far, one more coming up. But it's still depressing.

 

I mean I'm just in a negative mood right now because all the rejection is starting to get to me.

 

The phone interview I had yesterday felt like it went well, but because I could barely understand the guy, I think that came off as me not knowing my shit, somehow? I mean, I was constantly apologizing like "Yeah, I'm sorry, I can barely understand you," and the guy said in the beginning he was using speakerphone (why why whyyyy would you do that ever). We got through the basic "do you know what programming is!" questions, and I answered them as I thought he wanted them answered - seriously some of the questions he asked I only caught half the words he actually said. Then there was the "let me watch you program!" moment, and i flew threw that pretty quickly, at which point he was like "we're done!" It was supposed to last an hour, and I finished in half an hour. Last time I did that, it was with the company I got my first job, and it felt great. But this one didn't pan out, I guess. It's hard to sound confident when you can't understand half of what the guy says without him repeating it two or three or even four times.

 

i HATE phones

 

I'm mostly just mad about this last interview. I just had a LIGHT BULB moment on the test I'm working on. Hopefully I can finish it in time. It's due today! I should be fine, or I wouldn't be taking this short break to type this out.

[Zeusthecat]

Twig, I think it's worth giving some more thought to what Thrik and dibs have both been getting at. It sounds like you're already where you need to be on the technical side of things and it could be how you are selling yourself that is falling short. You need to be like a used car salesman where you are both the used car and the salesman.

 

As an example, the job I got out of college (and where I still work today) was only the second job I interviewed for and there were over 100 other applications full of people more qualified than me. I had no internship experience and the job was in power design which was not what I focused on in college. The only things I really had going for me was a high GPA and some decent people skills that I had developed over the years working at Applebee's. That and I did some research on the company before interviewing so I could talk intelligently about what they do. During the interview I focused mostly on my GPA and my Applebee's experience. I even straight up told them I had very limited knowledge of certain things they were looking for but by the end of the interview I was able to convince them that I was the type of person that could learn what needed to be learned and that could interface well with coworkers and clients. Whenever they threw something at me I didn't know I also made sure to bring up something else I was knowledgeable in to show that I at least had the skills they were looking for in a tangentially related area. But more than anything it was my Applebee's experience that got me the job. People skills are much more highly desired in technical fields than you would think.

 

Also, I took a valium before the interview.

[Dewar]

That is extremely honorable Sententia.  It makes me feel even worse about this post.

 

So I'm 30 today.  I feel old.  And like I've accomplished nothing with my life.  Especially when you compare it to people around here.  To make matters worse, I'm kind of trapped in a rut not entirely of my own doing.  I don't know how I'm going to get out of it, if I can at all.  Or even if I should.  It's unbelievably complicated.  I seriously envy those of you whose life is exciting and the changes you're making.  I wish I could do those kinds of things too, but I'm burdened with responsibility at the moment.

 

Sorry to be depressing after an extremely inspiring post.  You guys can feel free to ignore this and focus on the good stuff above me.

 

A little late in on this, I hadn't read anything recent in this thread until today. That's pretty much the definition of a mid-life crisis. It has been my experience that most people have these feelings, even ones who most would consider very successful. Honestly, when I fall into these ruts I've taken either to changing jobs, or picking up a new hobby that creates something in the end (painting, writing, programming, etc.) Even if you don't stick with the hobby long term, it can be a great stress relief.

[Twig]

There's not much to look at. I'm aware I'm a shitty interviewee, as much as I try. I mean, there's not much more I can do. I'm a nervous individual by habit, and being forced to try to sell myself as some product just amplifies that habit a thousandfold. I try, and fail, and try, and fail. Even that is weird, to me. If you asked me after each of these interviews, I'd say "Yeah, it felt good! I'm feeling good!" And then later, I get another rejection. So what am I doing wrong? I'm polite, I act interested (and sometimes AM interested), I answer questions as thoroughly and clearly as I can, I ask as many questions as I can. There's something wrong with ME, I guess, that is off-putting to the majority of people I interview with. I can't fake it anymore than I already am, and if that's not enough, I have nothing else.

 

Honestly, as each year goes by, I regret more and more my choice to get a degree in computer science. I like programming, but given how competitive the field is, I'm apparently not up to the task. I should've gone with something else. Like, I dunno, zoology, or something.

[Zeusthecat]

Yeah, you're definitely right about that field being super competitive. Maybe try seeking out smaller companies that most people wouldn't be aware of and where the competition might not be as stiff. The pay might not be as good but you would most likely be a very attractive candidate if you are bringing in some good skills and experience and willing to work for a bit less than the industry standard. We have had a very hard time bringing experienced programmers into our group because of the lower (but still decent and with great benefits) wages. The more experienced people that we have managed to hire have been super valuable in our group and have played a large role in improving our processes. Just an idea.

[Twig]

YEAH.

 

Anyway, I'm done complaining about it. I'm not usually such a negative person! Though I often pretend to be because it amuses me. Whatever. Something'll work out eventually.

[SecretAsianMan]

A little late in on this, I hadn't read anything recent in this thread until today. That's pretty much the definition of a mid-life crisis. It has been my experience that most people have these feelings, even ones who most would consider very successful. Honestly, when I fall into these ruts I've taken either to changing jobs, or picking up a new hobby that creates something in the end (painting, writing, programming, etc.) Even if you don't stick with the hobby long term, it can be a great stress relief.

 

Rut is a bad term to describe my situation.  I shouldn't have used it.  Rut implies a routine, and while my life has become somewhat routine, that's not the thing that's bringing me down.  It's more of my whole situation, what I'm currently doing, what I want to do, and mostly what I have no other choice but to do.  LIke I said, it's very personal and very complicated.

 

Twig, I sadly have no useful advice that hasn't already been given, so all I can say is keep trying.

[dibs]

Twig, take a Valium before your next interview.

If your programming is up to scratch and the field is competitive, what will differentiate you is your demeanour during the interview and the examples you can bring to the table of when you were an awesome, initiative showing employee. If the guys phone line or accent was shitty and you did noting to rectify the situation ('could you speak a little louder please, the phone line is terrible today' works for either situation) and some other guy showed the initaive to ask who would you hire? If they get shitty caus you made a simple request that helps everyone the you don't want to work there anyhow.

Secondly, don't read too much into rejections. I've had absolutely amazing interviews and lost jobs simply because someone more suited also interviewed. No conspiracy, no I'm so shitty, just someone better turned up. Sown day you will be that better guy getting the job over the guy bearly out of college. And sometimes they just didn't like the font you used and tossed your app because of that.

Ask for feedback. If you lack specific skills then skill up, you have the time at the moment. If you lack in presentation or you are messing up because of nerves then look for a toatasters club or debating club or the like. You will get some really valuable experience speaking in front of people.

And really do look over your Cv again. If it ain't working then maybe an overhaul is in order.

[Dewar]

Secondly, don't read too much into rejections. I've had absolutely amazing interviews and lost jobs simply because someone more suited also interviewed. No conspiracy, no I'm so shitty, just someone better turned up. Sown day you will be that better guy getting the job over the guy bearly out of college. And sometimes they just didn't like the font you used and tossed your app because of that.

 

 

Or it could even be someone who they thought they could get for cheaper interviewed. With budgets the way they are, I've seen less qualified people get hired all the time just so the company could save a few bucks.

[Patrick R]

I recently got a job at Whole Foods. My interview went extremely well, mostly because of the amount of bullshit I was throwing out there. Maybe you aren't doing enough bullshitting.

[dibs]

If you can't dazzle the with brilliance, baffle them with bull.

[syntheticgerbil]

Yeah I've started bullshitting for graphic design and media management jobs instead of what I'm actually good at. No luck bullshitting though.

 

Actually I don't think I've scored one interview since being fired, but I think that part tends to not be important for artists, since you have to show your whole portfolio up front when making contact. I guess this tends to be why if I actually get a response, I'm grateful even if it's a no.

 

I'm actually on board with the Valium idea though. Get some narcotics Twig. I mean, don't we all network best when drunk? Business men regularly make deals over drink, so I figure it's fair game.

 

I can help if you send me a self addressed stamped envelope to:
P.O. Box 900
Los Angeles, CA 90212

I will fill your prescription with some degree of accuracy and then I'll send it back to you

[Twig]

ha ha what is happening here

 

I'm honestly not sure if I'm comfortable downing drugs for an interview. I don't mind drinking to relieve the pressure of social interactions, but in those cases I'm ALLOWED to be a little goofy and way unprofessional (or so I tell myself). I'm intentionally letting loose. But to do it for an interview? The thought makes me feel weird. Not that I'm against it or anything, I'm not at all, but for me, personally, in a sense, I'm losing control of myself if I opt for that.

 

At any rate, that aside, I think all the moaning I did about it yesterday helped! SOMETIMES I GOTTA WHINE. I'm in a better mood today. Just finished a programming test, too, and it felt pret-ty goooood. Plus it was a friend of mine who got me in with that company. I'm hoping that'll work in my favor if they decide to continue the process.

[syntheticgerbil]

Well my P.O. Box for a state I don't live in is still open if you ever need it.

[Twig]

I've already sent fourteen envelopes.

[dibs]

stop feeling better about yourself. Take the drugs twig.

[Twig]

Yes sir. Sorry sir. It'll never happen again sir.

[elmuerte]

Dear Sir,

Good day and compliments. This letter will definitely come to you as a huge surprise, but I implore you to take the time to go through it carefully as the decision you make will go off a long way to determine the future and continued existence of the entire members of my family.

Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dr. (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha, the wife of the late head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces of the federal republic of Nigeria who died on the 8th of June 1998.

My ordeal started immediately after my husband's death on the morning of 8th June 1998, and the subsequent take over of government by the last administration. The present democratic government is determined to portray all the good work of my late husband in a bad light and have gone as far as confiscating all my late husband's assets, properties, freezing our accounts both within and outside Nigeria. As I am writing this letter to you, my son Mohammed Abacha is undergoing questioning with the government. All these measures taken by past/present government is just to gain international recognition.

I and the entire members of my family have been held incommunicado since the death of my husband, hence I seek your indulgence to assist us in securing these funds. We are not allowed to see or discuss with anybody. Few occasions I have tired traveling abroad through alternative means all failed.

It is in view of this I have mandated DR GALADIMA HASSAN, who has been assisting the family to run around on so many issues to act on behalf of the family concerning the substance of this letter. He has the full power of attorney to execute this transaction with you.

My late husband had/has Eighty Million USD ($80,000,000.00) specially preserved and well packed in trunk boxes of which only my husband and I knew about. It is packed in such a way to forestall just anybody having access to it. It is this sum that I seek your assistance to get out of Nigeria as soon as possible before the present civilian government finds out about it and confiscate it just like they have done to all our assets.

I implore you to send self addressed stamped envelopes to:
P.O. Box 666
Los Angeles, CA 90210

So that I can start transferring my late husband's wealth aboard.

Your faithfully,

Dr (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha (M.O.N)

[elmuerte]

That aside

 

Reading all those stories about job interviews makes me glad that I have never had the need to do so. It really sounds like some kind of stupid lying game. The better liar wins because HR doesn't understand the job description and the qualifications actually required. I fear the day when I have to start doing actual job interviews.

[syntheticgerbil]

How new is that spam?