Movie/TV recommendations

[Roderick]

When it comes to movie adaptations of manga, I was quite partial to the 20th Century Boys trilogy. Again, it's a Japanese thing, so that might not count when it comes to Hollywood. Here's my Filmadeus article of it.

[juv3nal]

Is Arise any good? Twig's "all right" sounds more like a shrug than confirmation that it will blow me away.

I've only watched a couple but I think it's pretty entertaining.

it's pretty funny how much they have the characters that will eventually comprise the team fighting against each other in those first 2 eps tho. It's kinda an origin story about the formation of the team.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Since this is briefly the anime thread I may as well mention that I recently saw all the episodes of Evangelion. I have yet to see any of the movies but I thought it was fantastic. I'm going to slap everything in spoiler tags, just cause.

 

In the early episodes I was fascinated with the depiction of Shinji's mental state, he was so broken and tortured I thought it was so interesting to see him thrust into such a dramatically important role. One of my favourite bits was when he was mindlessly parroting his instructions about how to aim the Eva's gun.

 

And then as the show went on it started to become more general anime stuff of fighting the monster of the week. It was a bit disappointing in that dip, but then when it approached the end of the series it started unraveling and going off the rails in the best way. The whole universe seemed to be falling to pieces around the characters. We got deeper and deeper views into their personal lives and their own mental issues. And then the final two episodes actually really pleased me because I was decoding this really intense and obtuse deconstruction of the characters' internal lives. I can tell they were very divisive but I loved them as a highly personal expression that you don't often see from a big production like a TV series.

 

I look forward to seeing the films as a supplement though I expect them to be a lot more traditional. I have to wait a while though, until my girlfriend calms down from hating how those last two episodes went. To give you an idea, here's what she wrote into this post when I wasn't looking:

 

Of course this is just my dumb opinion because I am an intelligent elitist with artistic aspirations and I have no appreciation for the art that is dumb generic animoo. Disregard everything i have said. I am a farthole.

[Twig]

oh eva excuse me while i vomit uncontrollably

 

 

It only took three movies, two seasons of the TV series, and god knows how much manga to get there, but finally we've got dude butts! Now we just need Batou to be naked like, 24/7 for much of the rest of the life of the franchise and eventually we'll hit parity between the objectification of men and women.

hehehe

 

Is Arise any good? Twig's "all right" sounds more like a shrug than confirmation that it will blow me away.

I use "all right" all the time to mean "something I really enjoy, but have no idea what everyone else will think, or even know if it's actually good".

 

So, it's something I really enjoy, but have no idea what everyone else will think, or even know if it's actually good.

 

 

Eden of the East wasn't very good, and that's a shame, because I want Kenji Kamiyama to be someone I can count on...

 

Oh what I loved Eden of the East. ):

 

Anyway, Arise definitely has some naked Major going on, and while it happens more than dude butt, it doesn't feel super gross. It is what it is, but it felt more natural, less out of place, than I remember it feeling in the old movies. It's entirely possible that I'm just used to it, though.

[thefncrow]

This Ghost in the Shell discussion got me to finally watch Solid State Society.  That's... a weird choice for a movie.  I enjoyed watching it, but it the dawning realization that they were doing

a version of the original movie in the TV continuity

was kinda amazing.

 

Also, I was struck by just how fucked up and dark is that plot of

Togusa being conscious and present for the act of being hijacked to assist in the disappearance of his daughter, after which he will basically never be able to find her.  They ultimately back out of it, but damn.

 

Since this is briefly the anime thread I may as well mention that I recently saw all the episodes of Evangelion. I have yet to see any of the movies but I thought it was fantastic. I'm going to slap everything in spoiler tags, just cause.

 

In the early episodes I was fascinated with the depiction of Shinji's mental state, he was so broken and tortured I thought it was so interesting to see him thrust into such a dramatically important role. One of my favourite bits was when he was mindlessly parroting his instructions about how to aim the Eva's gun.

 

And then as the show went on it started to become more general anime stuff of fighting the monster of the week. It was a bit disappointing in that dip, but then when it approached the end of the series it started unraveling and going off the rails in the best way. The whole universe seemed to be falling to pieces around the characters. We got deeper and deeper views into their personal lives and their own mental issues. And then the final two episodes actually really pleased me because I was decoding this really intense and obtuse deconstruction of the characters' internal lives. I can tell they were very divisive but I loved them as a highly personal expression that you don't often see from a big production like a TV series.

 

I look forward to seeing the films as a supplement though I expect them to be a lot more traditional. I have to wait a while though, until my girlfriend calms down from hating how those last two episodes went. To give you an idea, here's what she wrote into this post when I wasn't looking:

 

Of course this is just my dumb opinion because I am an intelligent elitist with artistic aspirations and I have no appreciation for the art that is dumb generic animoo. Disregard everything i have said. I am a farthole.

 

So you know, the first movie, End of Evangelion, serves basically as a replacement for the last 2 episodes of the series.  Supposedly, the story goes that Evangelion basically blew it's animation budget by the time they finished episode 24, and were forced to try to figure out a conclusion to the series that they could do on a shoestring budget.  End of Evangelion kinda serves as "What if we had a huge budget dedicated for the finale?"  Probably a bit of a bummer to hear on your side, but it might soften your girlfriend's reaction to watching it.

 

The newer movies are their own weird thing, and I don't know that I even want to say much about them.  I remember liking them as I watched them, and the animation in them all is just gorgeous.  The first movie in the Rebuild line is pretty straightforward and you'll think you know what these movies are once you get like 30 minutes in, but man, movies 2 and 3 are exceptionally crazy things (and movie 4's still not yet released, having blown past all previously announced release dates with nothing new announced).

[TychoCelchuuu]

I guess as long as we're talking about Ghost in the Shell, some sad news.

[Gormongous]

The newer movies are their own weird thing, and I don't know that I even want to say much about them.  I remember liking them as I watched them, and the animation in them all is just gorgeous.  The first movie in the Rebuild line is pretty straightforward and you'll think you know what these movies are once you get like 30 minutes in, but man, movies 2 and 3 are exceptionally crazy things (and movie 4's still not yet released, having blown past all previously announced release dates with nothing new announced).

 

I love the fact that Rebuild was originally intended to begin in 2007 and end in 2008, with a movie being made and released every six months in that interval. It's like... okay? Considering that the release of Rebuild of Evangelion 3.33 has been delayed for well over a year now because Anno reportedly disliked the English dub (as well as the sub, it turns out) and pressed to have it redone, we have some idea of how this came to pass.

 

It's also cool to hear fresh thoughts on Solid State Society. When I saw it, it was immediately after watching the show, so I was really aware of its "big episode" feel that's usually used to damn movies with faint praise. Still, in time, I came to appreciate it for being all about Togusa, who's designed from the ground up to be a foil for the more outre characters in the franchise, and found that a lot of the moments in the movie, like the one you describe, have stuck with me. I'm not as keen on Arise as Twig, because I can't help seeing how they've taken the TV series and done a one-to-one replacement of a lot of the philosophy with cheesecake and moe, but I do like having something more from that franchise. It's got such a carefully considered tone and feel.

 

I guess as long as we're talking about Ghost in the Shell, some sad news.

 

Dead of lung cancer at 44, man. That's sobering as hell.

[Twig]

WHAT IS MOE I STILL DON'T EVEN KNOW

 

like i THOUGHT i had a grasp of what it was but now arise is moe so i have NO IDEA AGAIN

[elvaq]

I think we might need a separate GITS thread...

 

Count me in the camp that was turned off by the first movie, but thankfully I checked out the second, completely-unrelated movie and really enjoyed it. Then watched SAC which is now one of my favorite TV series ever. SSS is pretty good too.

 

Arise is watchable but fairly crap overall. I think it's just time to make peace with the mythology and go rewatch SAC.

 

Also I still haven't read the original manga. Thoughts anyone?

[Gormongous]

WHAT IS MOE I STILL DON'T EVEN KNOW

 

like i THOUGHT i had a grasp of what it was but now arise is moe so i have NO IDEA AGAIN

 

 

I was going to make my own comparison image, but there's so many online already! Basically, the Major is moe in the new Arise OVAs because her character design has been made smaller, softer, and more childlike. In terms of her personality, she is more unsure, more vulnerable, and more emotional, especially with regard to making mistakes and showing distress. It's not some cyberpunk K-On! or anything, but it's definitely creating a different Major who's less threatening and more relatable to the moe-loving crowd. I could swear one of the early statements by the director and character designer said as much, that people in 2013 prefer a girl to a woman and that's why Arise is a prequel, but I can't find it now...

 

I think we might need a separate GITS thread...

 

I keep wanting to direct people to the oft-ignored Anime and Manga threads, but I don't want to disrupt the conversation already in progress by doing so.

[SuperBiasedMan]

So you know, the first movie, End of Evangelion, serves basically as a replacement for the last 2 episodes of the series.  Supposedly, the story goes that Evangelion basically blew it's animation budget by the time they finished episode 24, and were forced to try to figure out a conclusion to the series that they could do on a shoestring budget.  End of Evangelion kinda serves as "What if we had a huge budget dedicated for the finale?"  Probably a bit of a bummer to hear on your side, but it might soften your girlfriend's reaction to watching it.

 

The newer movies are their own weird thing, and I don't know that I even want to say much about them.  I remember liking them as I watched them, and the animation in them all is just gorgeous.  The first movie in the Rebuild line is pretty straightforward and you'll think you know what these movies are once you get like 30 minutes in, but man, movies 2 and 3 are exceptionally crazy things (and movie 4's still not yet released, having blown past all previously announced release dates with nothing new announced).

 

Yeah, I had heard about that. I don't think it'll bother me too much, I know not to expect more in the direction of the episodes and I'm alright with the limitation forcing their hand into such an unusual direction. That kind of thing happens all the time to create some really enjoyable results.

[Twig]

 

 

I was going to make my own comparison image, but there's so many online already! Basically, the Major is moe in the new Arise OVAs because her character design has been made smaller, softer, and more childlike. In terms of her personality, she is more unsure, more vulnerable, and more emotional, especially with regard to making mistakes and showing distress. It's not some cyberpunk K-On! or anything, but it's definitely creating a different Major who's less threatening and more relatable to the moe-loving crowd. I could swear one of the early statements by the director and character designer said as much, that people in 2013 prefer a girl to a woman and that's why Arise is a prequel, but I can't find it now...

 

 

I keep wanting to direct people to the oft-ignored Anime and Manga threads, but I don't want to disrupt the conversation already in progress by doing so.

 

So moe means childlike and cute? I mean that's what I thought it meant, until I saw it used for things that obviously weren't that... (Not around here, just... on the internet.)

 

I guess in appearance she qualifies (at least, relatively speaking), but I pretty strongly disagree re: her attitude.

 

Actually, to be honest, her appearance and consistently wide-eyed deadpan stare make her seem much more inhuman than cute to me, so maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you're talking about. Like it legitimately stuck out to me very frequently how WEIRD it was that she always had that exact look in that image. With a few exceptions, e.g., when she's being more "human" and having a relationship, etc.

 

Though, to be fair, I don't remember if any of the previous incarnations did the same thing.

[Gormongous]

So moe means childlike and cute? I mean that's what I thought it meant, until I saw it used for things that obviously weren't that... (Not around here, just... on the internet.)

 

I guess in appearance she qualifies (at least, relatively speaking), but I pretty strongly disagree re: her attitude.

 

Actually, to be honest, her appearance and consistently wide-eyed deadpan stare make her seem much more inhuman than cute to me, so maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you're talking about. Like it legitimately stuck out to me very frequently how WEIRD it was that she always had that exact look in that image. With a few exceptions, e.g., when she's being more "human" and having a relationship, etc.

 

Though, to be fair, I don't remember if any of the previous incarnations did the same thing.

 

Well, she might look alien, but that's contrary to the spoken intent of the crew, who's given a few interviews about how they want Arise to be about the Major's path from fallible human to hyper-competent professional. The design's meant to reflect that. I've only watched the first two, but if they fail at that goal overall, that's okay with me. A story about a woman who makes mistakes and needs help is not exactly why I'm drawn to Ghost in the Shell.

 

Yeah, I had heard about that. I don't think it'll bother me too much, I know not to expect more in the direction of the episodes and I'm alright with the limitation forcing their hand into such an unusual direction. That kind of thing happens all the time to create some really enjoyable results.

 

If you watch the previews for episodes 25 and 26, they are detailed storyboards and shooting for Asuka's fight with the mass production Evas and Shinji's conversations during Instrumentality, so the shots that became of End of Evangelion were planned from the start. In that case, I think it's incredibly lucky for us to have internal and external versions of the same events that can be watched together, maybe not like Dark Side of Oz, but still as closely related companion pieces.

 

And then we have the Rebuild movies, which are an alternative retelling of the original show, so that's just a thing with the Eva franchise and I like it.

[eot]

This should probably go somewhere else, but since it's all GiTS in here I'll mention that I recognised this as I was playing some E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy:

 

[thefncrow]

All this Ghost in the Shell talk is making me think I'm going to rewatch the original tonight.  It's been, man, a long time since I watched that.

 

And, yeah, it's hilarious how delayed all bits of Rebuild are.  I remember when things originally started to slip, and the 4th movie was something that they somehow thought would still come 6 months or so after Evangelion 3.0.

 

And a little more text to see if I can push this spoiler out of being visible in the post preview...

 

And then we have the Rebuild movies, which are an alternative retelling of the original show, so that's just a thing with the Eva franchise and I like it.

 

Well, alternative retelling or

sequel in some sort of time loop scenario

.  I still think there's too many little off things about it (especially everything with Kaoru) for it to be just a simple reboot.

[Twig]

Well, she might look alien, but that's contrary to the spoken intent of the crew, who's given a few interviews about how they want Arise to be about the Major's path from fallible human to hyper-competent professional. The design's meant to reflect that. I've only watched the first two, but if they fail at that goal overall, that's okay with me. A story about a woman who makes mistakes and needs help is not exactly why I'm drawn to Ghost in the Shell.

DEATH OF THE AUTHOR or whatever blah

 

Yes, I understand that they've said they wanted to make her that, but I think they failed at that pretty damn hard if that really was their goal.

 

Re: Mistakes: I did not get that impression at all from the stories of Arise, even in the first two. She makes mistakes but she pretty much resolves them on her own. If she gets any help, it's help she demands and/or earns, rather than help she begs for. I don't think I ever felt like she wasn't the one in control, even when she was fighting her own false memories. Even when she was being duped by other people. She'd figure it out and take care of it. I DUNNO MAN.

[TheLastBaron]

As dumb as the Scarlett Johansson thing is (and it's dumb) I can picture a lot of people I know seeing that there's some sci-fi action movie staring Scarlett Johansson out and going to see it. If they just saw there was a new movie out based on some anime they probably wouldn't care, or at least not as much.

I would imagine that the number of people this casting will bring to the theatres is a lot more than the number of people like me who now have no interest in watching it, so I guess I can't fault them too much for making a sound business decision, especially since the budget is probably pretty big.

[thefncrow]

I saw Whiplash.  That film is amazing, and if JK Simmons loses Best Supporting Actor this year he's been robbed (and I really like Edward Norton in Birdman).  What a performance. 

[Bolegium]

Coincidentally, I just linked the trailer for Whiplash to a friend (who is a classically trained musician, and aspiring musical educator). Somehow it had slipped my mind to do so earlier. It looks like i'll be seeing it a third time if it's still in cinemas next week.

 

It's been interesting seeing the responses from people, especially the ones i've seen the movie with, for example my mum being an apologist for JK Simmons' character (not surprising, but still infuriating, and maybe a bit cathartic).

 

Also returning to Birdman now that there's a bit of distance and i've read a few more critiques of it, it's superficiality is more obvious to me now. It's still impeccably crafted and brilliantly acted though.

[Patrick R]

I think the movie is an apologist for JK Simmons' character. It proves him right.

[namman siggins]

Whiplash aside, the best podcast on film turned 100!!!!

 

 

http://www.factualopinion.com/the_factual_opinion/2015/01/100-kazoos.html

[Bolegium]

I think the movie is an apologist for JK Simmons' character. It proves him right.

 

That's a fair reading, but my take is different (and perhaps not what the creators intended).

I think the film does enough to set up Fletcher as a terrible person, so when the ending scene comes around I felt that Andrew 'succeeded' because of his own obsessive desires and not because Fletcher pushed him to greatness, rather Fletcher's actions only hindered and harmed him needlessly. Even if I accept that Fletcher's actions were the fundamental reason for Andrew becoming great, I interpreted that as a depiction of the destructive cost of such greatness and concluded that the 'prize' is not worth the cost required to achieve it.

 

Granted the movie could have been more explicit in its messaging and taken a stronger or more obvious stance one way or the other, but I appreciated the ambiguity (I think it was somewhat ambiguous, rather than apologetic for the Fletcher character). FILMCRITHULK posted a few tweets criticising Whiplash on the same grounds - that the film comes across as ultimately supporting Fletcher and that it should have taken steps to make its condemnation of him (if that was the creators' intent) more obvious. Understandable, but FCH also praised Nightcrawler (article here: http://badassdigest.com/2015/01/09/film-crit-hulk-smash-nightcrawler-and-why-movies-dont-need-character-arcs/ and semi-spoilers ahead) for not punishing its character, and he called out other critiques interpreting that choice as the movie tacitly approving the character's actions (or at least refusing to condemn them) as incorrect. HULK posits that Nightcrawler's supposed lack of condemnation is a statement about the general public's lack of comdemnation for similar real life behaviour, 'Wolf of Wall Street' being a movie with a similar structure and aim. The movies are actually criticising the complacency and inaction of their own audience by refusing them the catharsis of seeing a bad character being punished. I see enough similarities between Whiplash and the examples FILMCRITHULK brings up that I would argue that Whiplash deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as Nightcrawler does.

 

If anyone didn't open the spoiler section, id like to post this FILMCRITHULK article about Nightcrawler again: http://badassdigest.com/2015/01/09/film-crit-hulk-smash-nightcrawler-and-why-movies-dont-need-character-arcs/

[Merus]

I think the movie is an apologist for JK Simmons' character. It proves him right.

 

The story that Fletcher relies on for his reasoning is apocryphal: a symbol was thrown at a famous drummer, but not particularly hard, certainly not at his head, and the audience chuckled afterwards. He's only proven "right" if you ignore that Andrew's wrecked his hands, his family and his love life in trying to live up to Fletcher's monstrous ideals, for a fleeting moment of a fairly selfish performance at a jazz concert. Fletcher didn't want to nurture masters - he wanted to be the person who nurtured a master, and he was willing to destroy lives and careers in order to be in that position.

 

If Fletcher's right, the movie is a slightly more brutal sports film. Andrew couldn't do the thing, it was hard, and now he can do the thing. If Fletcher's wrong, if mastery isn't made under intense pressure, then it becomes something far more arresting and interesting, particularly because of how easy it is to say, 'well Fletcher nurtured a master so therefore he must be right'. That's what's interesting about it: how much we're willing to forgive horrible people if we believe they have the key to greatness.

[namman siggins]

I think the movie is an apologist for JK Simmons' character. It proves him right.

Disagree completely!

 

Not once did Ifeel that the movie pushed Fletcher's ideology as "right". It pushed an ideology to its logical extreme and matched it with a person who had the obsession to follow through with it and who, inside, needed that push to do so.

I feel the film doesn't take any stance. I feel the film put us in a situation where it's up to us, with our perspective and experiences, to push forth our judgment on the situation and characters. I takes the same route that Nightcrawler--though I feel there were at times where Nightcrawler did take somewhat of a moral position against its characters.

[thefncrow]

My personal read is that Whiplash does at least prove Fletcher right.  The key, though, is recognizing how it

destroys everything in Neyman's life to do so.  He dumps his girlfriend because he's convinced himself that she's going to interfere with his drumming.  Fletcher and his attitude has gotten so far into his head that he can't just have polite dinner conversation with family friends anymore.  After the accident, the only thing he has left is his dad, who sticks by his side the whole film.  So, of course, when he's lost in his crazy drum solo and he's pushed through the breaking point, the camera goes back to his dad peeking at the performance through the doors in the back and the look on his face isn't pride or joy, but it's a look of shock, bordering on horror.  This is a success from Neyman's point of view, but to his dad, to the one thing left in his life that isn't drumming, this is defeat.  This is the sense that's he's lost his son into this crazy obsession, just at the time when it looked like the kid might come back from the brink.

 

It's notable that even though we get shots of the other band members, the movie focuses really only on one other disciple of Fletcher's, and that's the one that Fletcher drives to suicide.  That's the cost of Fletcher's method.  He can drive one kid to greatness, but aside from that one case, his legacy is a trail of broken dreams and worse.

 

The mention of this as a twisted sports movie, I think, is right on.  Neyman breaks up with his girlfriend because he wants to avoid that scene in every sports movie, where the dedicated player screws up his relationship.  Neyman tries to then pull the classic end of that plot, where after his big fall, he apologizes and tries to get the girl back (which, surprise, doesn't work).  Neyman gets T-boned by a semi-truck and then scampers off to play the performance.  But where a sports movie would play that out that he works through the pain and he gets his job done in spite of his injury (and I was so ready to see that and just say "fuck this shit"), here they at least recognize the reality of the situation and make him unable to play because of the injuries he's sustained.  Neyman gets his dad to show up for the performance at the end, and a sports movie would play that as "father basks in his son's accomplishment", but here, there's no joy in what he's seen.

 

For something that's a performance art, you see basically no focus on the audience at any point before, after, or during any of the performances.  Basically the only time you can really even tell that they're not playing to an empty room are when they need a shot focusing on a specific person in the audience (his father in the final performance, Neyman in the crowd at Fletcher's performance).  Sports movies and inspiring teacher stories are often full of shots of crowds or audiences getting excited by this achievement on display, but not here.

 

Neyman, in the end, is left with nothing but his drums and his abusive relationship with Fletcher.  Fletcher's right, he can produce a wonder with his method, but only if he finds that 1 in a million kid who is willing to throw away everything in pursuit of it, while he himself leaves a wake of destruction in the path of everyone else he comes into contact with.

 

Also, I kinda had to dump out of reading some of those posts because Nightcrawler is one of the next things on the "To Watch" list, so I'll have to come back to those afterwards.