Jake

Idle Thumbs 272: Sorrow and Horror

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Idle Thumbs 272:

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Sorrow and Horror
Dear Mom: Life in the new colony sucks. No one knows how to hunt, the clothes they give us keep falling apart, every night there are literal wolves at the door, and Nick (or "Goldblum" as he has fashioned himself) can't keep a handle on his most basic impulses. The cable package only has ESPN 1, so Evo's out of the question. I had a pet rat for a while but I don't know what happened to it. Probably something terrible. I never thought space would be like this. I hope I can go home soon.

Discussed: RimWorld, Prison Architect, Jeff Goldblum, Street Fighter V, Counter Strike: GO, Rust, The Jejune Institute, Latitude, Spot Goes To Hollywood

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The RimWorld streams have been amazing. 

 

Chris forgot to mention that after forcing Danielle's mom to deal with the crazy timberwolf and turning it into kibble, she felt so stressed that she, a known pyromaniac, decided to set the base on fire while everyone except for one hardworking teen were sleeping. He also made the crew butcher a human they had killed, so, you know, they are not just complaining about their ugly surroundings and cramped bedrooms; they have serious psychological issues to deal with.

 

Seriously, watch those streams everyone.

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Good cast. I'm also quite taken by Chris' Rimworld streams.

 

I simply just have to clarify one thing with regards to Chris' rimworld story. Jake said: 'He was born and still is Nick Breckon.' In fact, Nick 'Goldblum' Breckon is a Vatgrown soldier. The Nick Breckon IP obviously outlives us all, and is used as a template for the soldiers of the future. Also worth noting is that Goldblum's past life has left him incapable of violence, caring and social. And he has a bad back.

 

Chris might have understood this correctly, but with regards to the 5 x rebuffed by Jr. Mints that Chris saw after Sr. Mints and Goldblum got together, those had happened in the past. Some mood modifiers last a while, and expire gradually. Others, like the environmental effects are instant.

 

A small gameplay note: The dumping stockpile thing chat asked you to do didn't quite work out. The idea, I think, is to only have a single dumping stockpile near the stonecutting table, and set that dumping stockpile to accept a single type of stone chunks. Thus whenever someone uses the stonecutting table, there's uniform stone readily available. However, you currently have two dumping stockpiles there. In the first stream you had set a dumping stockpile near the farms and the other stockpiles. And now in the 3rd stream you created a new stockpile in the stonecutting room, that is set for slate chunks, but you also have the old stockpile right outside. So you won't get uniform stone block types without additional micromanagement. Also, there's no reason to keep a stone chunk dumping stockpile indoors that I know of.

 

Having stone walls is a good idea when one of your colonists is a pyromaniac.

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Jake, I believe, Valve have added API methods that allow to add ownership of a game to user, but I don't know if it actually got use...

EDIT: Hm, skimmed through the API docs, didn't find any mention of it. Weird. Dunno why I thought this existed.

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Just one thing about the loser bracket/dreaded MLG extended series thing in DOTA tournaments.

 

MLG used to do the absolute worst format where people going into the loser bracket played a BO7 (or whatever) series STARTING at 2-0 or 2-1 with their opponent but ONLY if they had previously beat them. If the 2 players had not played each other, the series started from 0-0. Also the last series, the "final" was played with some weird double series or started as a 1:0 or some garbage. Here's a topic with some more info on the MLG trash format. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/316148-understand-the-mlg-format-and-extended-series

I can't remember what ended up happening, if MLG stopped using it or just kept at it. They stopped doing SC2 tournaments in the end anyway.

 

I don't remember what DOTA tournaments did in the first year or two specifically but eventually all adopted the system from The International, where there is a winner bracket and loser bracket. The winners of both brackets play in a "Grand Final" where there is no advantage in series/score/points for the team coming from the winner bracket (besides maybe choice of getting to decide which side to play or first pick). I can't remember the last time a bracketed tournament did something that wasn't this format, except maybe some pure elimination brackets (which sometimes produce weird finals).

 

Group stages are still a free for all for weird fuckery/crazy tiebreakers. Groups go between 4 and 8 teams, do BO1 or BO2 or even BO3 between teams. Sometimes they're set up in a way that allows for a two, three or even four way tie between top teams (all of them having a 4-3 score). Then they get to do tiebreaker games between themselves. Which could lead to more tiebreakers but the rules are smartly (in a dumb way) clear: after one round of tiebreakers, remaining ties are sorted by a time rating (this is almost as bad as the extended series but it almost never happens).


The european TI6 qualifiers this year only had 3 tiebreaker games but it was potentially a 5 way tie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_International/2016/Main_Qualifiers/Europe

 

If you want to look at the crazy amount of games (57 in 4 days) played at last year's TI with some pretty coloured matrixes you can look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_International/2015/Group_Stage

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I want to point out that, outside of the awful commentary, the Super Smash Bros. Melee Evo 2016 finals were goddamn amazing:

 

 

Yes, it's like 40 minutes, and the same criticisms pointed out by Nick and Chris in the episode are valid, but damn if this isn't a profoundly tense series of matches. People complain about how Super Smash Bros. Melee ends up just being the same few characters (which is both true, but it's also true of SFV, as was mentioned in the episode), so it was pretty fun to see Jigglypuff played so well in the finals against someone who, up until that point, played primarily as Peach. Both of those characters are regarded as being very good by the community, but they aren't the typical three you see in Melee: Fox / Falco / Marth (And Super Smash Bros. for the WiiU has even more variety!)

 

Edit: Most of the people on these forums probably have a good working knowledge of Melee, but in case you don't, some background. Hungrybox, the American who played as Jigglypuff, was the winner of the Losers Bracket, where you go if you lose a match at some point on your way through the tournament (as is standard in a Double Elimination Tournament). In the Losers Bracket, if you lose another set (of 3 individual matches), you're out of the tournament. The winner of Winners Bracket has not lost a set throughout the tournament, which is why the person in Losers Bracket has to win two sets against the person who won Winners Bracket to Win the Championship - so that the person in Winners Bracket has their own chance to go down to Losers Bracket, essentially. This process is called "Resetting the Bracket" and it's what Nick described as confusing his mom in the episode. 

 

Jigglypuff is a character that Hungrybox has to play with incredible finesse, especially against Fox, who is widely regarded as one of the strongest characters in the game. Jigglypuff is a very light character, which is bad if you are playing Super Smash Bros., as you die when you are thrown from the screen, but she has some advantages that balance things out. First, she has an amazing recovery, allowing her to kind of fly around like Kirby to get back to the stage. Second, and this turns out to be vital in the match above, she has the ability to use a move called Rest, where, if she's touching another character and uses Rest, she will fall asleep and the other character is really smacked around. If they're at even a moderate percentage, they'll be killed. It's worth noting that Jigglypuff will continue to sleep for a while, giving the other player a chance to come in and kill her while she sleeps, so sleep is pretty good in situations where this is the last of the other player's lives (called stocks in the match, represented by little heads on the bottom), or where Jigglypuff is at a very high percentage and she can take a stock from the other player in a situation where she'd likely be dead soon anyway. So, while watching this match, know that Armada, who is playing as Fox a character with a lot of very close combat style, is also always on the lookout for a situation where they're touching Jigglypuff, where Hungrybox could use Rest. Knowing that makes watching this final way, way more fun. 

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Cheers, I came to this thread just to ask for this link

 

Also this could be part of a great found-footage film

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As soon as ICQ was mentioned I was really hoping that Jake would point out that it stood for "I seek you" because that's exactly the kind of thing I would expect Jake to know and mention.  Once again, Jake does not disappoint.  I am pleased.

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For a little while, the Humble Bundle system used Steam account authentication to distribute the games. You would link your account, and instead of pulling a serial key to redeem in the Steam client, it would connect to your account and add it right to your library. Then they stopped doing it. Don't remember why. Both ways were fine by me, so I didn't really think about it.

 

There's also the weirdness of Motor Rock. It's a racing game by a Russian dev team that is a blatant rip-off of Rock n' Roll Racing, with quite a few assets that were just copied or ripped out of the original. The program was even called RRR3D for a while. The game has been delisted from Steam, but they still have a cache of redeemable keys. If you go to the team's website, you can get a key in return for a $3 PayPal donation. Part of that donation process is signing in through Steam to see if you already own it, and if not, you get a key.

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Just one thing about the loser bracket/dreaded MLG extended series thing in DOTA tournaments.

 

MLG used to do the absolute worst format where people going into the loser bracket played a BO7 (or whatever) series STARTING at 2-0 or 2-1 with their opponent but ONLY if they had previously beat them. If the 2 players had not played each other, the series started from 0-0. Also the last series, the "final" was played with some weird double series or started as a 1:0 or some garbage. Here's a topic with some more info on the MLG trash format. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/316148-understand-the-mlg-format-and-extended-series

I can't remember what ended up happening, if MLG stopped using it or just kept at it. They stopped doing SC2 tournaments in the end anyway.

 

I don't remember what DOTA tournaments did in the first year or two specifically but eventually all adopted the system from The International, where there is a winner bracket and loser bracket. The winners of both brackets play in a "Grand Final" where there is no advantage in series/score/points for the team coming from the winner bracket (besides maybe choice of getting to decide which side to play or first pick). I can't remember the last time a bracketed tournament did something that wasn't this format, except maybe some pure elimination brackets (which sometimes produce weird finals).

 

Group stages are still a free for all for weird fuckery/crazy tiebreakers. Groups go between 4 and 8 teams, do BO1 or BO2 or even BO3 between teams. Sometimes they're set up in a way that allows for a two, three or even four way tie between top teams (all of them having a 4-3 score). Then they get to do tiebreaker games between themselves. Which could lead to more tiebreakers but the rules are smartly (in a dumb way) clear: after one round of tiebreakers, remaining ties are sorted by a time rating (this is almost as bad as the extended series but it almost never happens).

The european TI6 qualifiers this year only had 3 tiebreaker games but it was potentially a 5 way tie. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_International/2016/Main_Qualifiers/Europe

 

If you want to look at the crazy amount of games (57 in 4 days) played at last year's TI with some pretty coloured matrixes you can look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_International/2015/Group_Stage

 

I always disliked Winner/Loser bracket in SC2 because it confused me and always felt weird. I'm really glad that basically all SC2 tournaments now use the GSL group format

From Liquipedia: 

  • Best of 3.
  • The 4 players of each group are split into two pairs and play each other.
  • The winners of these matches will then face each other in the Winner’s match.
  • The victor places first in the group and advances to the Ro16.
  • The losers of the initial matches face each other in the Loser’s match.
  • The loser places fourth in the group, will fall to Code Aicon.png. [out of the tournament]
  • The loser of the Winner’s match and the winner of the Loser’s match will face each other in a fifth match.
  • The winner gets second place in the group and advances to the Ro16.
  • The loser places third in the group and will fall to Code Aicon.png.

and then do a regular single-elimination bracket for Ro8/Ro16. Makes life much easier and reduces unnecessary games. 

 

 

 

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I want to point out that, outside of the awful commentary, the Super Smash Bros. Melee Evo 2016 finals were goddamn amazing

 

What was it about the commentary that you didn't enjoy? I'm a big fan of the Scar/Toph duo, but they do have some West Coast bias when it comes to player favouritism. 

 

Anyway, a double elimination tournament is basically a staple of a lot of tournaments these days, and it's honestly not that complicated. It basically boils down to the idea that you have two chances. You lose once, and you have another chance. The reason a bracket reset can occur in the grand finals is because one of two finalists has never lost up til that point, so a second match is played with that player's second chance.

 

Also WickedCestus; the GSL for SC2 has the Winner/Loser bracket for both the round of 32 and round of 16 now (the groups are redrawn after the round of 32 ends), only the final top 8 is single elimination. But yet you say you hate the winner/loser bracket system, so I'm kinda confused by what you mean?

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What was it about the commentary that you didn't enjoy? I'm a big fan of the Scar/Toph duo, but they do have some West Coast bias when it comes to player favouritism. 

 

Anyway, a double elimination tournament is basically a staple of a lot of tournaments these days, and it's honestly not that complicated. It basically boils down to the idea that you have two chances. You lose once, and you have another chance. The reason a bracket reset can occur in the grand finals is because one of two finalists has never lost up til that point, so a second match is played with that player's second chance.

 

Also WickedCestus; the GSL for SC2 has the Winner/Loser bracket for both the round of 32 and round of 16 now (the groups are redrawn after the round of 32 ends), only the final top 8 is single elimination. But yet you say you hate the winner/loser bracket system, so I'm kinda confused by what you mean?

 

Sorry, I should clarify: I find the long 16-player-plus Loser's bracket formats to be confusing. With a GSL group of 4, it's always clear (to me) what each match means, who the player will face next, how far they are in the tournament, etc. I like the clear distinction between Ro32, Ro16, Ro8, etc. instead of moments where there are 6 players left in the tournament, but 4 of them are higher and 2 are lower. This year's SSL Season 1 (the other major Korean SC2 Starleague) used a Loser's bracket from the Ro16 onward. When I look at the results pages for GSL Season 1 and SSL Season 1 I find the GSL format infinitely easier to follow. 

 

Hope this makes sense. 

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What was it about the commentary that you didn't enjoy? I'm a big fan of the Scar/Toph duo, but they do have some West Coast bias when it comes to player favouritism. 

 

I think that while they're certainly exciting, and they do describe things well, their commentary doesn't seem to click with me. They don't have much dynamic range in how they present matches, every moment in a given match seems to be the Most Exciting, or the Most Crucial. They start at 10, and stay there, which tends to wash out the actual amazing moments. I think that perhaps this is just how it is in the e-sports community, since this is what most of the audience wants, they want hype and excitement. I think that a commentator, especially in a finals match, should recognize that more people outside their niche community are tuning in. The Smash community has a series of deep references that are kind of trotted out and not well explained, which is disappointing (every time I hear to a commentator refer to the top players as "Gods" I wince). 

 

I am being pretty picky! It was fine, and better explained than Anything in UMVC3

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I think that while they're certainly exciting, and they do describe things well, their commentary doesn't seem to click with me. They don't have much dynamic range in how they present matches, every moment in a given match seems to be the Most Exciting, or the Most Crucial. They start at 10, and stay there, which tends to wash out the actual amazing moments. I think that perhaps this is just how it is in the e-sports community, since this is what most of the audience wants, they want hype and excitement. I think that a commentator, especially in a finals match, should recognize that more people outside their niche community are tuning in. The Smash community has a series of deep references that are kind of trotted out and not well explained, which is disappointing (every time I hear to a commentator refer to the top players as "Gods" I wince). 

 

I am being pretty picky! It was fine, and better explained than Anything in UMVC3

 

I think this is a conscious decision they make when they are commentating for the top 8 of literally the biggest Melee tournament ever, specifically. As for the poor explanations, part of it is to do with the fact that Melee was not made to be a competitive fighting game and thus has no official name for a lot of techniques, which end up adopting silly names that make no sense. I watch Toph/Scar's talk-show from time to time and they are very aware of this and often discuss the topic of obscure names such as "tomahawk" (short-jumping, landing without any action, then a grab) or "tournament winner" (performing the jump command while hanging the ledge, causing you to immediately get punished because this is a slow/bad option; which if you watched this year's Melee EVO finals is, spoilers, exactly how the tournament was won (or rather, lost)). I think Scar/Toph did a decent job minimising the use of jargon this year, and also took the time to explain common terms, for example I just randomly selected a top 8 match and they were explaining what a wavedash is; something everyone in Melee knows already so definitely aimed at new viewers.

 

 

Sorry, I should clarify: I find the long 16-player-plus Loser's bracket formats to be confusing. With a GSL group of 4, it's always clear (to me) what each match means, who the player will face next, how far they are in the tournament, etc. I like the clear distinction between Ro32, Ro16, Ro8, etc. instead of moments where there are 6 players left in the tournament, but 4 of them are higher and 2 are lower. This year's SSL Season 1 (the other major Korean SC2 Starleague) used a Loser's bracket from the Ro16 onward. When I look at the results pages for GSL Season 1 and SSL Season 1 I find the GSL format infinitely easier to follow. 

 

Hope this makes sense. 

 
Yeah I getcha. And I do like the way GSL breaks it down into 2 separate group stages because the groups make for more digestable viewing as well. GSL is aired on TV in Korea so having these chunks of the tournament that have predictable durations is really useful for scheduling and organising. Just knowing exactly who is in the lineup for the day helps me decide whether to watch or not as well.

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