Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

[Jake]

49 minutes ago, Roderick said:

Oh certainly, and we all laughed at the random aperture up top that slices shut every few seconds. The most murderous ventilation system ever.

That little mechanical door puzzle was actually too dumb. 

[dartmonkey]

Saw it in Spanish so I want to see it again to hear Vader and Tarkin's voices. Liked it. Nothing to add that hasn't been said, except that my wife, who didn't know the Tarkin character or that Cushing was brown bread, didn't notice he was CG. I spent every second he was onscreen marvelling at modern tech and irritated I couldn't hear his voice. It took me out of the moment, but pleasantly so, like when I first saw CG Yoda. There's so much unbelievable stuff onscreen, why not ex-people?

 

Edit. Also, I enjoyed the lo-techiness of the Death Star plans.

Edited January 3, 2017 by dartmonkey

[marginalgloss]

I saw this a few days ago and was left with a very strong feeling of ‘well that was fine’ – maybe tempered more with disappointment than elation. For me at least the sense of a missed opportunity was strong with this one. 

 

I agree with a lot of what others have said in this thread about the weakness of the first and second acts; the third act felt to me like the film they really wanted to make all along. But it took so long to get there! By the time the actual raid began, my brain was still ringing with questions that probably didn’t need to be answered in the first place.  

 

It lacks any of the really penetrating imagery that made The Force Awakens so memorable. There’s nothing as meaningful in Rogue One as the sight of the crashed Star Destroyer at the start of TFA; nothing even as good as the (much gif’d) little nod exchanged between Finn and Poe before they fly off on their separate missions*. The Rogue One cast all deliver solid performances all round, but it felt workmanlike by comparison; perhaps there just wasn’t room for anyone to really shine. Donnie Yen and Riz Ahmed were great, but it felt like their roles were salami-sliced to make space for the Mads Mikkelsen stuff, which arguably didn’t need to be there at all.

 

I found myself craving something like the classical unities of drama: one location (a big city or something), and one action (grab deff star planz) taking place over one fixed period of time. Add a group of rad characters; have incredible, ridiculous things happening constantly. Zero downtime. Forget the whole question of motivation; or at least park it somewhere we don’t have to think about it. Give me a Dredd or a Die Hard in the Star Wars universe and I would have been so happy.

 

…and yet my partner, who I thought was going to hate it, enjoyed it almost without reservation! So perhaps my own reaction has something to do with my own expectations; she knew next to nothing about it, and was totally absorbed.

 

*- although I did enjoy how very small Felicity Jones looked while in disguise; I cannot believe nobody stopped her and said 'aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper' at that point, though naturally this would have been both very good and very bad.

[Gorbles]

Relevant links r.e. pacing of first half. Not meant as an excuse, just, explainy. Explain-y. There's a word there I swear.

 

http://mashable.com/2017/01/03/rogue-one-reshoots/#AvCB1fWfukqD

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-05/rogue-ones-reshoots-changed-key-scenes-in-the-star-wars-film-reveal-editors

 

(in case like me you find Mashable's use of JavaScript a sin unto God and in need of exorcism)

[Ben X]

THIS IS A SPOILER THREAD RIGHT? SPOILERS BELOW! SPOILERS!

 

Did anyone else find it unclear whether Cassian shot the other spy in that early scene? When it happened, I thought "ooh, was that the troopers or the spy that shot him?" so I looked carefully at Cassian when it cut back to him. But there was no sign that he had just shot someone, his hands were fiddling with his lapel or something, so I assumed it was the troopers.

 

I can understand why they decided to add some exciting stuff at the start, but it was just too much stuff on top of an already full movie. I wish they'd just added to what they already had instead of cramming in more planets, more spies. The film really needed to become laser-focused on the plot point of the diverse and ethically compromised rebel factions becoming a pure Rebel Alliance, and have everything pertain to that on some level, not pour more shit in there. Just off the top of my head, cut from the opening title to an exciting sequence where Jyn is abandoned by Saw (as mentioned later in the current cut) and that's how she comes into contact with Mothma's lot.

 

(nb I had to google all the character names outside of Mon Mothma; like many others, I forgot them very soon after seeing the film, if not during it)

[Gorbles]

I agree I don't think her childhood needed that much exposition, but personally I greatly enjoyed Andor's little morally-grey excursion. Very tightly paced.

And yeah, he definitely shot that dude.

 

He shot first.

 

Hehehe. Heh. Kill me.

[Ben X]

Yeah, I gathered after seeing the film that he definitely shot the dude (and I do think it's a conscious reflection of the whole Han Shot First thing by the filmmakers), but I found it very unclear while watching...

[TychoCelchuuu]

There was about a tenth of a second's hesitation in my mind when the other spy got shot because I wasn't sure if a Stormtrooper or Diego shot him, but then I realized Diego shot him via various context clues, which I will now list from the most important to least important:

 

1. We didn't cut to Stormtroopers shooting at Diego or anything like that, so cinematically, the shot read as coming from Diego, albeit surreptitiously (a good touch, IMHO - the camera was surreptitious to match a surreptitious action, albeit at the cost of momentary confusion).

 

2. Whether or not we cut to them, the Stormtroopers clearly aren't still shooting, so obviously Diego and the other guy are not being shot at.

 

3. Diego starts climbing away, so now we have his motive: this is so he could escape without that other guy getting caught.

 

4. Diego's acting shifty.

 

I agree that it wasn't super clear, and I can imagine another world in which it would have been very unclear, but I actually thought it was kind of a cool effect. It was more than explicit enough for me, and I think making it super explicit would have been much less interesting than what we got in the film. When a film tries to make something less than obvious, it walks a very fine line, because people tend to miss things, and I was not expecting a massive Disney blockbuster to try anything quite that subtle (which is not to say I found it super subtle, but then again you missed it, so maybe it was pretty subtle) so I ended up really liking it.

[Badfinger]

On 12/31/2016 at 2:24 PM, Ben X said:

 

Arrrgh! People keep thinking this is the story about many Bothans dying to get the information! That was regarding Death Star II (Mon Mothma says it in ROTJ).

 

itsamoose - that video takes 6 minutes to say one thing, but the splitscreen of all the movies with the exact same fakey emotional moment was v good.

 

They also allude to the desperation of getting the Death Star info in A New Hope, it's just not That One Line.

[Ben X]

@Badfinger - not like it's a big deal or anything, but I do keep seeing people ask "where were all the Bothans?", which is about That One Line. Perhaps sclpls was referring to that general feel in New Hope, but I don't think so. (EDIT: and I don't remember any of these allusions in New Hope, what are you referring to?)

 

@TychoCelchuuu - well, I didn't miss it, I was looking for signs of it! I put more weight on his hands not doing anything remotely post-shooting-a-guy over the clues you listed, though, seeing as he wouldn't need to hide it from anyone once the deed was done. (I may well see the film again at some point and notice he's stuffing a blaster back in his belt or something, though!)

[Mawd]

I definitely read it as him killing the guy to not expose the network. As soon as the guy complained about how he couldn't climb I figured he'd be a goner and I think from the way Luna was fiddling it looked like he was just getting ready to do it.

Anyway I posted some thoughts on another forum and I mostly still stick by them.

Quote

I thought it was a more interesting film than some of them. I liked some of the world building and the fast cuts all over the galaxy.
I like that it's the start of the spinoff trend and that it signals that producers are willing to greenlight different genre conventions for the Star Wars universe.

I think some of the callbacks were too forced. I think the blind Chinese staff fighter wasnt out of place for the SW from the amount of staffs used in the rpg games. Plus Ip Man/Donnie Yen is always a great actor to see.
Overall I think there was a great amount of talent in the film, Mads Mikkleson and Forest Whittakerr are always anazing but so was the always on point Ben Mendleson fresh from Bloodlines and drawing on his quiet menace from Animal Kingdom as well.

Reusing old footage from the earlier films was a nice touch but I didnt like cgi Moff Tarkin. It was fine enough but I'd rather they didn't make a habit of these really uncanny valley cgi characters like him and Snoke.

I think itll make one of my favourite Star Wars films. There's only a few I like consistently and theyre Empire Strikes Back, Force Awakens, Rogue One, and most of Revenge of the Sith.
If they just tore out most of the callbacks I'd be really happy.

I think one strongpoint of the new stuff is that more of the characters are likable than last time.
Oscar Isaac has enough on screen charisma to rival Harrison Ford at this point. If you're not sure on that I suggest you check out Ex Machina.

 

I do think that however one dimensional characters are now, they're generally a little more likable than before. The Prequels and Original series of course had likeable/enjoyable characters like Han, Leia, Droids, Palpatine, Vader, Mace Windu, etc. but it just seems like we're seeing that even the smaller characters have more personability to them.

 

The movie did end up wheezing from all the changing plot points and fixes to The Plan but idk it's still largely enjoyable.

From here on out I'd love for more stories that aren't dedicated call backs to previous trilogies and for all the fan servicey stuff to be toned wayyy down. Fingers crossed that a Bobba Fett movie ends up being like a predator or some other man-hunt movie rather than say.. Deadpool. I'd love it if the Han Solo movie ends up being a caper filled heist film with all The Force stuff kept to a minimum

Eventually I do just want a movie that's all Force and is placed on some sith or jedi planet somewhere and just ends up being an antihero journey or something, buut I've certainly had that already in the games.

 

P.S. since most of you haven't seen any of the Star Wars Rebels animated series I'll just let you know that Thrawn is making appearances in season 2 so he might be in a future film at some point.

 

And now that I think about it I do agree that it would have been wayyy better if Ben Mendleson was more of an authoritarian peacemaker or someone who did think they were largely empathetic to the common person  but went and got all twisted. If they just played up that Forest's character, a downright bastard, was the actual target rather than a taxed upon city verging on disgruntled unrest, it may have done more. Or if he punished the scientists in a way that didn't end in mass murder to show that there was some kind of human side to him. As it was he pretty much pantomimed the estranged friend in the opening scenes and went back to being a standard evil dude for much of the film.

Anyway I hope we get more interesting actors in SW. It'd be cool if we saw an evil Martin Freeman or a decadent Jeremy Irons.

[Jake]

He totally killed the guy out of self preservation. He does the same thing later - shoots one on his own side - to save Jyn. It's a character trait I wish mattered more on screen, but in the movie as presented it felt like a rough sketch that never got filled in. 

[itsamoose]

I feel like the bit with Diego shooting the defector is getting a lot more credit than it deserves.  The man is an assassin (or we know at least a spy at that point in the movie) within an armed resistance, it's not like the rebels are some kind of nonviolent opposition up to that point.  The rebels clearly have support from a broad range of groups, and it doesn't seem like they are hurting for manpower or equipment, so I don't get it wouldn't then be taken as a given that they have spies and assassins.  If the creators wanted to make the point that the rebellion has been encouraging people to give in to their barbarism they had many opportunities to drive that point home but never really did.  To some extent I think this is my own pet peeve, but it's just that this kind of inconsistency really prevents me from enjoying the film.  Even thinking back on it, and hearing other people's reactions, I still don't really have a sense of what this movie was trying to be.  The characters didn't feel like they were driven by any kind of consistent motivation, they just did whatever the action needed them to do at the time.  It all just felt very paint by numbers.

[sclpls]

On 1/5/2017 at 9:02 AM, Ben X said:

@Badfinger - not like it's a big deal or anything, but I do keep seeing people ask "where were all the Bothans?", which is about That One Line. Perhaps sclpls was referring to that general feel in New Hope, but I don't think so. (EDIT: and I don't remember any of these allusions in New Hope, what are you referring to?)

 

@TychoCelchuuu - well, I didn't miss it, I was looking for signs of it! I put more weight on his hands not doing anything remotely post-shooting-a-guy over the clues you listed, though, seeing as he wouldn't need to hide it from anyone once the deed was done. (I may well see the film again at some point and notice he's stuffing a blaster back in his belt or something, though!)

 

I can't tell you what I was referring to because I haven't seen the original trilogy movies in like over a decade and so my memory is super hazy about all that stuff. It could be both lines blurred in my head together. The actual line certainly isn't important to me anyway, it helps flesh out a neat story related to the first movie regardless.

[Ben X]

I was asking badfinger what lines "allude to the desperation of getting the Death Star info in A New Hope", I don't remember any...

[Jake]

4 hours ago, Ben X said:

I was asking badfinger what lines "allude to the desperation of getting the Death Star info in A New Hope", I don't remember any...

 

Yeah I don't think they ever get into it. I had forgotten the details of the opening crawl in Star Wars even, and after rewatching it last weekend was surprised to read that it says the rebellion had just won it's it's major battle against the empire and in the process managed to get the plans. That's what comes out of the screen in Rogue One (for me it happens unsatosfyingly, but it does meet the literal requirements of the opening of SW).

[Badfinger]

15 hours ago, Ben X said:

I was asking badfinger what lines "allude to the desperation of getting the Death Star info in A New Hope", I don't remember any...

I was convinced a non-bothans line was in A New Hope during the planning phase after they retrieve the death star plans, but I will grant that it's only my memory and I might have been filling in the dialogue myself.

[mikemariano]

4 hours ago, Badfinger said:

I was convinced a non-bothans line was in A New Hope during the planning phase after they retrieve the death star plans, but I will grant that it's only my memory and I might have been filling in the dialogue myself.

 

It was Sinbad as a genie who died getting the plans.  RIP Sinbad.

[baekgom84]

Finally got around to seeing this and... I actually really enjoyed it. In many ways I enjoyed it more than The Force Awakens, which I also enjoyed quite a bit. I might just be the perfect audience for this film; I'm not so into Star Wars that little details or inconsistencies bother me, but I'm into it enough that I give certain issues with the film a pass with an, 'Oh that's just Star Wars,' that I might not give to other films.

 

I liked most of the characters. Jyn was a bit weak for a protagonist, and Donnie Yen and his buddy seemed unnaturally forced into the plot, but other than that I didn't have any problems. It surprises me that Diego is getting a pretty lukewarm treatment, as I really enjoyed his character. For me he had possibly the most interesting character arc of the movie, going from a ruthless and loyal agent of the rebellion to someone who learns when to question orders and when to trust others.

 

I also think the third act did a great job of conveying the desperation of the rebellion. I don't think even the original trilogy did as good a job at expressing the gulf in firepower and material resources between the empire and the rebellion. I found the final battle quite tense, despite knowing what the outcome would be.

 

And I wasn't really bothered by CGI Tarkin. I mean it was pretty obvious and looked a bit video-gamey, but at the same time I just... didn't really care. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who don't know about the CGI thing don't even notice it. They might just feel that something is a bit off. In any case, I think he's a pretty underrated villain generally, and the movie shows how scarily competent he can be. The Leia cameo at the end is cute too, I don't think it would have been the same if it had just been a shot of her from the back, as some people have suggested.

[eot]

The Bothan spies thing is in RotJ, the Emperor makes a comment to Luke about how he more or less gave them the info. However, the opening crawl (of ANH) does mention the events of RO:

 

Quote

It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

 

During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet.

 

Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy....

 

[Kolzig]

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-title-for-star-wars-episode-viii-revealed

 

The Last Jedi 

 

I saw Rogue One around Christmas, ok action movie, way better than the trainwreck Ep7. Human cgi characters were dumb and ugly, especially Tarkin.

[Roderick]

The Last Jedi sounds like a singularly lame title, but then again every other Star Wars title to date.

[Ben X]

I never understand people thinking Star Wars titles are cheesy/lame etc. Even Ewan McGregor ripped on the Attack Of The Clones title in the press. They're supposed to be cheesy! They're homaging the old Flash Gordon serials, as are the title rolls etc. As Roderick points out, they match the lame original titles perfectly!

[James]

Rogue One is definitely flawed in a few ways, but I was pretty determined to enjoy it, and I was able to, so it passed that incredibly low bar. I also thought The Force Awakens was really great, if that helps as a barometer of my tastes or standards or whatever.

 

On 07/01/2017 at 6:27 AM, itsamoose said:

I feel like the bit with Diego shooting the defector is getting a lot more credit than it deserves.  The man is an assassin (or we know at least a spy at that point in the movie) within an armed resistance, it's not like the rebels are some kind of nonviolent opposition up to that point.  The rebels clearly have support from a broad range of groups, and it doesn't seem like they are hurting for manpower or equipment, so I don't get it wouldn't then be taken as a given that they have spies and assassins.  If the creators wanted to make the point that the rebellion has been encouraging people to give in to their barbarism they had many opportunities to drive that point home but never really did.  To some extent I think this is my own pet peeve, but it's just that this kind of inconsistency really prevents me from enjoying the film.  Even thinking back on it, and hearing other people's reactions, I still don't really have a sense of what this movie was trying to be.  The characters didn't feel like they were driven by any kind of consistent motivation, they just did whatever the action needed them to do at the time.  It all just felt very paint by numbers.

To me, what that scene in particular did really well was establish a pervasive sense of hopelessness to which the emerging New Hope was an answer. Not just the ruthlessness of this man in a supposedly heroic organisation, but also the despair of his unfortunate contact. Sure, it's pretty blunt, but it's not something I expected from Star Wars, and I think it effectively broadens the sense of a lived-in world, which is at least 50% of what's good about the series. The other films have big evil villains doing big evil things and heroes being occasionally anguished about it, but, for me at least, there hasn't been a strong sense of the emotional toll it's been taking on a broader scale. Perhaps I'm easily impressed, but appreciated the feeling that people were being worn down by a struggle that didn't seem to be getting them anywhere. It felt real and it felt like a different angle on the Rebellion than I would previously have expected from Star Wars. Not that you couldn't have inferred that it was there, but I wouldn't have expected to see it.

 

I don't think the film really creates a proper arc for that feeling – you could plot one out based on plot points, centring on Jyn's "Rebellions are built on hope" bit – but emotionally, for me it just silently faded away. I wonder if that has anything to do with the reshoots. You can see a lot of the seams in that regard – the change in pacing between the first and second halves, the stubs of more extensive backstory and flashback stuff, not to mention all the stuff missing from trailers and promotional material – perhaps there was a better pay-off, or it made more sense, with that intact. Or maybe the film really was a complete disaster before they took a hacksaw to it. But the reshoots were supposed to lighten the tone, so it seems at least possible.

 

5 hours ago, Ben X said:

I never understand people thinking Star Wars titles are cheesy/lame etc. Even Ewan McGregor ripped on the Attack Of The Clones title in the press. They're supposed to be cheesy! They're homaging the old Flash Gordon serials, as are the title rolls etc. As Roderick points out, they match the lame original titles perfectly!

I'd guess that most people aren't too familiar with Flash Gordon serials (does the film even still hold much of a place in the public consciousness?). As for the new titles matching the old; for people our generation and younger, I'd guess that people became familiar with and used to the old titles when they were too young to know that they were cheesy, and never really questioned them since. Kind of like how you can get well into your twenties or thirties and then suddenly realise that some word obviously derives from another one, or you were completely misinterpreting the literal meaning. Too bad I can't think of any actual examples of that, other than the "Ohh, phoenix down".

 

I don't think "The Last Jedi" is particularly terrible, and it certainly fits thematically, but I do feel like it doesn't quite have as much of a ring to it as most of the others. The prosody feels a bit flat. Then again, maybe it'll fit in really well as the middle instalment of the trilogy. Maybe.

[dium]

Super duper late, I know, but I finally saw Rogue One yesterday (which was, I think, the last day I could expect to see it in a theater without traveling somewhere inconvenient/suburban). It was kind of a bummer.

 

It was a bummer disproportionate to the actual quality of the movie – which I thought was fine and kept me entertained, especially in the final act. But it wasn't great, and the worst parts for me felt like fan-servicey bullshit, and it's made me worried about how many more annual Star Wars movies I can take before I'm just spent on Star Wars. And that thought makes me sad.

 

It's just one thing but, honestly, I probably would've enjoyed the movie considerably more if the CG dead actors weren't in it. What an expensive, technically impressive mistake. I can recognize the level of craft and the dollars on display but it's still not good enough, and it's only gonna look worse with every passing year.

 

 

 

WRT episode 8 title: Ben is absolutely right, of course, it's 100% in line with past Star Wars titles. I still think it's an obvious, dull choice, but not inappropriate in the context of the series.

 

I still think the best subtitles in the series belong to the two worst movies. Attack of the Clones has that cheesy old serial flavor to it but also some intriguing specificity that most of the other titles lack... and The Phantom Menace is just badass.