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Mington

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It's weird coming from the US where almost everything is decided down party lines to have watched the various parties in the UK have huge intra-party disagreements. However, the net result for me is that I've never been able to clearly determine the pros and cons of this debate because there's so much mud-slinging going on. It sounds like everyone around here who's talking about it is pretty much against Brexit, can you tell me why (not that I disagree.)

 

Edit: Also Brexit is a horrible term

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I was against it because the only reasons for it were a) stem immigration (which, even if it is effected by Brexit, is a stupid idea because we're a country of immigrants, they're our ancestors and our lifeblood); sunglasses) do shit like get rid of the Human Rights Act; c) save some money and put it into the NHS (Nigel Farage has already distanced himself from this, saying it was a mistake for the Leave campaign to promise that, the politicians backing Brexit want to dismantle the NHS, and even if we were to put money into the NHS it'll fall apart without immigrants to work there anyway).

 

Leaving the EU will quite likely fuck us financially because we're a tiny island with no empire left and no exports, who will now have to renegotiate all trade agreements etc. It makes travel/emigration a lot harder. It makes life harder for all my immigrant friends. It makes life harder for me and my partner because a lot of the work round here was funded by the EU and will now disappear.

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It's like a child who wants to run away from home and be independent without their parents telling them what to do. But after running away the child realises that their parents gave them an allowance and other conveniences.

(also the child is probably a racist)

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The whole thing makes me very, very sad. All of the economic arguments aside, which from my limited knowledge seem to mostly be based in horseshit anyway??, but all of those completely aside - the whole symbolic message of this vote is "fuck immigrants we don't want to help people", in a time when the world should be coming together more and more, it's like we're regressing our ancestors' insularity instead of opening up the way we should. This ain't the medieval times! We're not empires anymore, we're all on this planet together.

 

Doesn't give me much hope when it comes to Trump.

 

and that's my emotional reaction

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The EU gives us things like employment rights and civil rights that aren't afforded to us by the current government. The EU gives us access to trade and free movement across Europe, meaning we can choose to live and work in any other EU country without having to apply for immigration status. These are good things. The leave campaign promised that we'd save money by not being in the EU (technically true, if you ignore all the money they give us back), and that life would be infinitely better once we stopped all the immigrants coming over (absolutely bullshit). They got very little traction with the first point, but the second was championed by alot of shitty racist people as the solution to all our problems.

 

I'm in a strange position with this outcome. I voted for remain and I think that leaving is going to be horrible. But this has brought Scottish Independence back to the table and I fully support that. We've been telling everyone the UK is a shitty union for years! I'm glad it's finally clear to people that a country with 5 million people gets no say against a country of 50 million. This whole situation is a goddamn mess but if we can become independent from the UK then at least something good can come from it.

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The whole thing makes me very, very sad. All of the economic arguments aside, which from my limited knowledge seem to mostly be based in horseshit anyway??, but all of those completely aside - the whole symbolic message of this vote is "fuck immigrants we don't want to help people", in a time when the world should be coming together more and more, it's like we're regressing our ancestors' insularity instead of opening up the way we should. This ain't the medieval times! We're not empires anymore, we're all on this planet together.

 

Doesn't give me much hope when it comes to Trump.

 

and that's my emotional reaction

 

From the outside, my opinion was basically "is this a time when we should be sticking together?" as well, but I didn't know enough about the reasons for leaving to know if that really makes sense.

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I can't even imagine how pissed off people living in the UK must feel now. Or maybe just England and Wales? Scots might be ok with it in the end. Northern Ireland probably will absolutely not unify with Ireland?

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If I read things correctly (it's reported here and there on sites like the Guardian), this was also in some ways a generational conflict. Young people overwhelmingly voted Remain, while old people (the much-maligned and mistrusted Babyboomers) voted Leave. Because hey, if you're gonna kick the bucket soon anyway, you might as well blow up the country based on misinformed bullshit on the EU and rampant xenophobia.

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That's the way out always seems to go, isn't it. /:

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If I read things correctly (it's reported here and there on sites like the Guardian), this was also in some ways a generational conflict. Young people overwhelmingly voted Remain, while old people (the much-maligned and mistrusted Babyboomers) voted Leave. Because hey, if you're gonna kick the bucket soon anyway, you might as well blow up the country based on misinformed bullshit on the EU and rampant xenophobia.

 

I've seen several articles claim that Nigel Farage's desultory attempts to connect the Brexit to the fate of the NHS moved a lot of voters to cast for "leave." Lots of old people afraid that the EU is stealing their healthcare, apparently.

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Saw a newsclip earlier this morning where Farage (post-exit) said NHS would not receive any new funds as a result of the exit.

 

:tup: ??

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This mostly comes from a place of spite, but I really hope Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK to stay in the EU.

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The EU has no say about healthcare, that's mostly a national thing. And yes, the first thing Farage did was say, yes, no, it probably was a mistake to say we'd give money to NHS, oopsie, sorry for misleading everyone.

 

Another 'hilarious' thing is reports today of Leave voters regretting their decision, saying things like 'I wanted to give a protest vote, but never expected Leave to actually win'. You know, probably about that 2% that pushed it over the top. Look, let's all be reasonable and finally acknowledge that most people are extremely bad at making political decisions, which is why we outsource that shit to people who(m we hope) actually know what they're doing (or otherwise just have nice bleached hair and make fun noises with their mouth holes). Referenda are a one way ticket to poor decision making, we've seen that again and again and again. They are a divisive tool that usually serves to polarise the public even more, and often gets hijacked by populist asshats.

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I think if there's one thing we can take away from all of this, it's that humanity was a mistake.

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Look, let's all be reasonable and finally acknowledge that most people are extremely bad at making political decisions, which is why we outsource that shit to people who(m we hope) actually know what they're doing (or otherwise just have nice bleached hair and make fun noises with their mouth holes). Referenda are a one way ticket to poor decision making, we've seen that again and again and again. They are a divisive tool that usually serves to polarise the public even more, and often gets hijacked by populist asshats.

 

I don't disagree, but where this breaks down is when the people to whom political decisions have been outsourced make the decision that a referendum is be a good idea.

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While this is really shit from a lot of perspectives (EU nationals in Britain, Brittish temporary emigrants, Irish women seeking abortion services and the entire nation of Britain), I believe this is a good opportunity for NI and Scotland to gtfo gracefully.

 

If they leave I believe they'll be living quite precariously in terms of economy... Joining forces with Ireland seems like a good choice. I genuinely believe brexit will lead to better trade from ROI as it's already attracting quite a few international companies even with London as a contesting option.

 

Joining ROI seems a bit fairytale and silly to be honest, but maybe some new form of union? Worst comes to worst and northern ireland apathetically clings to what's left of the UK. Scotland seems hopeful to get out, though.

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Having only cursory knowledge of EU, despite it's recent problems with Greece and such, it just seemed so right, a strong organized force against nationalism of first half of 20th century.  This is just very sad :(

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It's an odd feeling, waking up one day to feel like a stranger in your own country.

 

Things would have been strange for a while if the UK had voted to remain, but I feel it would have settled down in time. The underlying tensions wouldn't have gone away, obviously, but those appear to have very little to do with EU membership; you certainly get the impression that most people asking to leave didn't actually know what they were asking for, equating leaving the EU to spurious notions of the vote actually being for tighter immigration control and more funding for the NHS.

 

Misguided or not, more people voted to leave than to stay. Divorced from the greater context I consider this a mistake in itself — naturally the EU isn't faultless, but the UK has always seemed to get more out than it puts in — but the truly depressing part is how this isn't just a victory for those wishing to leave the EU but also, inextricably, a victory for xenophobia and bigotry. You don't have to look far today to see all the racist idiots emboldened by 'their' victory, harassing British citizens that have lived in, and contributed to, the UK for years.

 

I feel like a stranger and I have it pretty good, all things considered: my city voted to remain, I'm white, my surname's boring and I have a nondescript accent. Imagine if one or more of those things weren't true: I wouldn't just feel like a stranger in my own country, I'd feel like the enemy; I wouldn't just feel empty, I would feel afraid.

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I have felt on the verge of vomiting for almost 24 hours now. I have never been this anxious about the future before, and I didn't even vote to devalue my own currency and tank my economy yesterday.

 

Cameron stepping down within 12 hours of the results is maybe the craziest part.

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Having only cursory knowledge of EU, despite it's recent problems with Greece and such, it just seemed so right, a strong organized force against nationalism of first half of 20th century.  This is just very sad :(

 

History bears this kind of thing out as cyclical, going back at least to the late eighteenth century. A generation experiences a cataclysm that forces them to move more towards humanitarian and liberal action, then the moment that the majority of that generation has passed on, there's a rightward and nationalist counterstroke that usually precipitates the next cataclysm. Every forty to seventy years, like clockwork, which is very depressing.

 

The EU has no say about healthcare, that's mostly a national thing. And yes, the first thing Farage did was say, yes, no, it probably was a mistake to say we'd give money to NHS, oopsie, sorry for misleading everyone.

 

The implication was nakedly "We'd give more money to the NHS, but we're flat broke after paying all these membership and service fees to the EU. If you could get us out of that obligation..." It reminds me of a common observation about the US political cycle: present issues with the economy in the form of issues with the nation's "household budget" and people will overwhelmingly vote however you spin it, even though the national economy and your typical household couldn't be more different. We can't have free universities and healthcare because there are no raises in the global marketplace, duh! 

 

chris posted this on the twitters earlier today and it's just like

 

https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/746373747062472705

 

this is it

 

this is how this shit happens

 

this is how trump wins

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/24/british_voters_regretting_their_decisions_a_roundup.html

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