Jake

Idle Thumbs 201: Adults Only

Recommended Posts

It's true Sim City cities are very American but I think the main reason is not that it was made by Americans, but rather that you probably want to be able to plan and build your city from scratch in a sandboxy game like that. Also grids and squares are the easiest to implement and use, especially when we're talking about the times the first Sim City was developed. Also also Cities: Skylines devs are from Finland, my impression is people assumed they're American on the podcast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's true Sim City cities are very American but I think the main reason is not that it was made by Americans, but rather that you probably want to be able to plan and build your city from scratch in a sandboxy game like that. Also grids and squares are the easiest to implement and use, especially when we're talking about the times the first Sim City was developed. Also also Cities: Skylines devs are from Finland, my impression is people assumed they're American on the podcast.

I was definitely aware the Skylines devs are from Europe (I know Jake is aware of this as well), but I think given how direct a lift it is from Maxis' game, it's fair enough to interpret the design as conceptually American in origin. It is actually shocking how little this game reinvents the formula from the game that inspired it. (As I said on the podcast, I don't really consider this a bad thing, given what Maxis' game actually did with that formula.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh that's definitely true, also they were quite open about the fact they're doing exactly that way before the release.

 

But still, I'm not sure Sim City and the genre it started would look dramatically different if it had been created in Europe (not that anyone confidently said it on the podcast). Maybe drawing road grids wouldn't be the first thing you do in the game, but I think it would still start with an empty space with few constraints because that's what you do when you want to make a city-building sandbox. Of course you could also make a game about slowly fighting for space through politics and whatever but I don't think that's a game you would make after deciding that "hey, let's make a game where you build your own whole city and stuff!", American or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh that's definitely true, also they were quite open about the fact they're doing exactly that way before the release.

 

But still, I'm not sure Sim City and the genre it started would look dramatically different if it had been created in Europe (not that anyone confidently said it on the podcast). Maybe drawing road grids wouldn't be the first thing you do in the game, but I think it would still start with an empty space with few constraints because that's what you do when you want to make a city-building sandbox. Of course you could also make a game about slowly fighting for space through politics and whatever but I don't think that's a game you would make after deciding that "hey, let's make a game where you build your own whole city and stuff!", American or not.

 

I don't know. If you look at the Anno or Settlers games, they're much more sharply restricted by the landscape. The problem is almost never how to build an efficient city on its own, but how to build one that plugs best into a preexisting system. If remote or off-map powers exist, they're as likely to be hostile as friendly. There's a lot of assumptions about the tabula rasa nature of urban planning in Sim City that don't exist in many European city-builders and might not have existed in any if Sim City didn't turn out to be a huge success, creating new assumptions about what it means to be a city-building game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arguing counter-factuals is always kind of dicey territory, but I think just the whole idea of creating a game genre that revolves around building a modern city in an open, freely available space is a concept that is going to be informed by an American experience even had the developers been European.

 

But I think it also could have been possible that in this universe where SimCity never existed you might have had European developers that ended up making a city management game instead of a city building game since that would have been a more natural translation of the European experience of modern urban planning. Or perhaps we might have the city rebuilder genre (for example, a city like London really is what it is because at pivotal points in history it is wrecked by fire).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arguing counter-factuals is always kind of dicey territory, but I think just the whole idea of creating a game genre that revolves around building a modern city in an open, freely available space is a concept that is going to be informed by an American experience even had the developers been European.

 

But I think it also could have been possible that in this universe where SimCity never existed you might have had European developers that ended up making a city management game instead of a city building game since that would have been a more natural translation of the European experience of modern urban planning. Or perhaps we might have the city rebuilder genre (for example, a city like London really is what it is because at pivotal points in history it is wrecked by fire).

Well I think it's telling in and of itself that there are so many more historical city-builders from Europe, as opposed to modern ones. And most of the modern ones from Europe have some other specific focus beyond simply (build a full-service city from the ground up, starting from a big empty flat plane), although obviously there are exceptions in all cases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to make a game called White Knight/White Night/Wight Night/Wight Knight, where it is 4 different games and it picks one at random each time you start it.

Alternatively, 4 separate share cart games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got a bit of a Shatner vibe from the lyrics in the new theme song.

 

I can't un-hear it now.

 

This episode made me really, really wanna play Cities Skylines. Or at least learn how to play the copy of Sim City 2000 that I have installed on here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great observation, RubixsQube. I now realize that one of the biggest reasons I stopped listening to the Giant Bombcast is that it's full of people shutting each other down. It's really unpleasant to witness; I always feel bad for whoever Jeff is dumping on. Uh, not to name names or anything. 

 

I think you may be wildly misinterpreting the subtext of those interactions. Those guys are friends, just like the Thumbs are friends. There's heckling (particularly of Dan), but it's pretty good natured. Hell, one of the things I enjoy about the Bombcast is how quick everyone is to run with one another's jokes. It's a wide enough spectrum of tastes that yeah, they disagree about the merits of X, Y or Z pretty frequently, but I don't feel like anyone's ever being "dumped on" in a mean-spirited way or with genuine ill will. Plus it's not just "I'm right, you're wrong" (at least, not as a seriously defended position), it's "here are the reasons I feel this way about this thing", and it's not uncommon for people on the other side of the argument to acknowledge many of the individual points as fair even if they come to a different conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so that's why the sung lyrics seemed to have to come in late according to the instrumental theme. The vocal arrangement pleased me with a depth that surprised me.

 

Great cast, Cara was rad as a guest. 

Weirdly enough, I was more put off by the suggestion that the PS2 animal platformers were contemporaries of Banjo Kazooie than the original mistake. In my mind Banjo goes along with the likes of DK64, Spyro, Glover and whatever else was on the PS1 at the time (Crash Bandicoot?). Then I checked the release dates and it turns out the Rare N64 games do get followed up by Jak and Daxter the next year (2001) with Ratchet and Sly appearing one year after (2002). So, yeah, they're totally in the same temporal neighbourhood. Then my reaction was, 'well, maybe they're closer than I thought, but there were way more bad ones in the N64/PS1 era' but then you brought up Blinx. So, basically it's just been animal-platformers forever.

 

Good times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So good. Especially Cara and Chris for these good file name puns.

 

Well done. Three thumbs up for Idle Thumbs (this leaves one idle thumb who thought these puns were a little bit dumb)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, I should have remembered that Cara said she was a history buff as a kid when she was talking about Tomb Raider. I braced to groan when she brought up the Romans' obsession with straight roads, but then she explained it very clearly before moving onto the political character of maps and urban planning. I keep forgetting what I've known in my heart since her review of the 1996 Electronic Dream Phone, Cara Ellison is truly great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great episode! I have multiple thoughts:

 

I can't help but imagine Cara playing Real Life Gone Home by rooting through Steve's house, reading notes, and uncovering some kind of mystery. I would read this article.

 

I just want to fill out one more important note of why Shadow of Mordor is secretly a dating sim:
Each orc har their likes and dislikes, and in order to approach that orc you need to learn these likes and dislikes through gossip from other orcs.

 

Like Gormongous, I also thought of Settlers as an example of where you start with a blank slate, but your city shape is largely determined by both the terrain and what resources are available where.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, for me Idle Thumbs has never been a podcast about cool new games. I bet other listeners feel the same, otherwise they wouldn't be listening to the back catalogue.

 

I rarely get to play a game as it is new, and even if I do I am often behind and prefer not to have my experience spoiled (this happened with This War of Mine). So for me it's absolutely fine if you keep talking about what you are interested in at the moment, even if it's older and/or you talked about it before. In fact, I like the depth that comes with continuing discussions, be they about Far Cry 2, DayZ, Spelunky, or Desert Golf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anybody's interested in a fairly radical analysis of maps and urban planning, I recommend James C. Scott's Seeing Like a State. It covers a lot more topics than just cities, but there's a chapter about how modern cities were designed to be easily understood and controlled by governments. It's pretty fascinating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said last week that the theme felt Radiohead-y to me. This week it felt Hitchhiker's Guide-y. Hooray!

 

Jake, how are you not able to quote Full Throttle verbatim in its entirety? The bit where Mo shows off the fixed bike goes:

 

"Am I cool or what?"

"You're amazing."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I relistened to the opening of the episode on my walk home from work yesterday and was mad at myself for not quoting it properly on air.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't help but imagine Cara playing Real Life Gone Home by rooting through Steve's house, reading notes, and uncovering some kind of mystery. I would read this article.

 

Oh my god, please, please, please let this be an article she writes.  I wonder if Steve made punk rock 'zines when he was a teen.  I'll bet he did. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great episode! I have multiple thoughts:

 

I can't help but imagine Cara playing Real Life Gone Home by rooting through Steve's house, reading notes, and uncovering some kind of mystery. I would read this article.

 

OH. MY. GOD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh my god, please, please, please let this be an article she writes. I wonder if Steve made punk rock 'zines when he was a teen. I'll bet he did.

Steve made a computer game zone called something like The Journal of Compugraphical Entertainment or something, which he distributed around town in Portland, and he cited that as his experience when he applied to be a contributor to Idle Thumbs back in 2005 or something. His zine had an interview with Greg Kasavin, which we then published on Idle Thumbs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve made a computer game zone called something like The Journal of Compugraphical Entertainment or something, which he distributed around town in Portland, and he cited that as his experience when he applied to be a contributor to Idle Thumbs back in 2005 or something. His zine had an interview with Greg Kasavin, which we then published on Idle Thumbs.

 

Oh yeah, I knew about the Kasavin story (Steve's talked about it before), but I had completely forgotten that it was part of a zine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent episode! Cara was a great guest.

 

I can't help but imagine Cara playing Real Life Gone Home by rooting through Steve's house, reading notes, and uncovering some kind of mystery. I would read this article.

 

Yes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now