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Hatred: The Most Despicable Game of All Time?

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They might not want to give it press at all, or wait until the game is released and they can damn it to the bottom of Metacritic.

 

 

Remember how Giant Bomb was like the only gaming outlet to be angry at that Blackwater game? Maybe Alex Navarro will finally get his chance to give something 0 stars.

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I'm pretty sure this qualifies as hate speech, and so I'd be happy to see it banned. I think there's a real risk in treating hate speech as just being like any other kind of speech, because its harm is not in people believing it but people expressing it. (One of the many reasons why the marketplace of ideas is full of shit - ideas spread, they're not bought.)

 

I think, though, the best thing to do is to just not give it coverage, like all those dodgy erotic games that get made.

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I'm pretty sure this qualifies as hate speech, and so I'd be happy to see it banned.

I'm super uncomfortable with the idea of classifying any kind of speech that isn't a direct threat to safety and well-being as 'the bad kind of free speech' and banning it. We've seen how easily white supremacists can twist the rhetoric of progressive language into "maybe you're the real racist" sophistry: The last thing we need is to give them a chance to legally suppress equal rights movements on the basis of 'hate speech'.

 

Free speech isn't easy or harmless, it's just more important than it is difficult and harmful. I wholly repudiate the idea that we should consider restricting it the moment it might do harm.

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The argument is that hate speech itself is harmful already. I'm not USAian or well versed in the legality of speech in the USA. Many countries have legal limits to speech, and many of them are robust enough to withstand abuse. I haven't heard of right wingers claimimg equal rights movement speech as hate speech, though i have heard of right wingers twisting religious freedom laws to allow them to discriminate against people they don't like.

I don't think religious freedom laws should be abolished due to right wing abuse. Similarly I don't think anti hate speech laws should be relaxed just because those on the right may try to abuse it either.

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I'm not familiar with hate speech, but my understanding was that incitement was the relevant difference. You can say "I hate ethnicities" all you want, though people will think you're a shitbag: But the second you say "let's go beat up some ethnicities" you're inciting and breaking the law. However, the basis for this understanding is basically just "vague comprehension", so I may be way off base.

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It's worth talking about Australia's approach specifically here, because we handle it a bit differently to other countries that just ban it (apparently). People can submit notices of hate speech and it's considered a 'civil wrong', and is unlawful - a civil matter - rather than an offense - a criminal matter. Just the idea that the line exists seems to be enough of a comfort for minority groups in Australia, but I haven't heard of a lot of incidents overseas where people have been jailed for hate speech that I'd consider an abuse of free speech. (Joke threats, absolutely.)

 

That said it's not going to get past the Classification Board in Australia anyway.

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I'm curious why this information is being ignored by the mainstream? It seems people are quickly defending this game as art without really looking at the devs behind it. The devs call it propaganda on their site. It's curious that a game like Bayonetta2 gets criticism for sexism but not this? Maybe because the game isn't fully released yet. I just think it's weird.

Polygon interviewed Hatred's Creative Director recently, and added a footnote that they'd asked some follow-up questions regarding the team's apparent white supremacy:

 

Note: Subsequent to our interview, a report emerged of Zieliński's support on Facebook of an anti-immigration group called Polska Liga Obrony. We've followed up with some specific questions on this issue and will update when we receive a response.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing the team will be going dark as to not torpedo their own game. I'd be really curious to see their response to the allegations.

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I haven't seen the trailer, and I don't plan to change that either. I think I got a good enough impression from what you wrote about it. So it seems to me that I would be fine with them selling the game as long as nobody buys it...

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Apparently the game was put on Greenlight today, from which Valve ripped it back off. Eurogamer called and spoke to Doug Lombardi, who said:

 

Based on what we've seen on Greenlight we would not publish Hatred on Steam. As such we'll be taking it down

 

Pretty quick too.

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It's back. Valve has apparently made no comment on why it is. I was happy to vote a no on it.

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And, as is rapidly circulating right now, here's the discussion thread on its reinstated Greenlight page suggesting that "SJWs" appear as killable enemies victims in the game.

 

kohrOfI.png

 

dosJEDI.png

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I feel confused about this whole Steam removal thing. I understand it's within Valve's right to refuse to put any game on Steam for whatever reason, since it's their platform. But why would they draw a line here, with this game? Or maybe they decided not to after all, since it's back.

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Yeah greyson's got it. Put it it out and let people shoot it down. 
I understand peoples concern over this sort of thing but I think drawing the line on where free speech ends is not a good thing. Its better to let the thing come out then point out its flaws so others can understand where it goes wrong. 

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(Sourced from a commenter on rockpapershotgun) supposedly Steam/Valve have private terms and conditions that are visible only to greenlight submitters that they must abide by, and were clearly breached by Hatred specifically concerning depiction of violence.

I can't say for certain how reliable this information is, but haven't seen any evidence to the contrary yet. It would appear that Valve are following their own internal protocols rather than being pressured externally. Maybe they can be criticised for some hypocrisy, but that doesn't automatically mean that Hatred should be accepted on Steam.

I don't know why it's been allowed back on Greenlight, those comments are petty and stupid. I guess they were so angry and 'oppressed' by being called 'neckbeards' or whatever that they had to retaliate by attacking blue hair, because they couldn't possibly be angry about people not liking a terrible game right?

 

*Edited: now with source - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/12/16/hatred-removed-from-steam/#comment-1768061

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I feel confused about this whole Steam removal thing. I understand it's within Valve's right to refuse to put any game on Steam for whatever reason, since it's their platform. But why would they draw a line here, with this game? Or maybe they decided not to after all, since it's back.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable of Valve. If I were running a store I wouldn't stock this game. Valve should have the right to not stock any game they choose, even if it is for arbitrary reasons.

 

People point out that Postal, Manhunt, etc, are on Steam, but keep in mind those games were vetted by ESRB and PEGI. Rockstar (very publicly) toned down Manhunt 2 for the European release because PEGI refused to rate it at all. For this game, the burden of regulation would be entirely on Valve.

 

The biggest danger would be that bad press could attract more regulation in the digital space. Currently, games don't need to be rated to get on Steam. I'm going through the ESRB/PEGI stuff now for my console title... it's expensive and time consuming for small developers like me. If more regulation is pushed onto Steam, expect fewer quirkly/small titles, and slower update/release schedules. Nobody wins.

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they have the right to make it, we have the right to tell them to fuck off.

 

The people who are being depicted as acceptable targets have a right to not be further victimised, the people who want to victimise others have a right to use their speech as a weapon...

 

I mean, if you're going to claim that free speech is a powerful weapon, let's follow that thought all the way through

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While I'd hate for this game to be banned no matter how distasteful I find it due to the free speech implications, I do think that retailers have a right to decide what kind of entertainment they're willing to stock. Games are now reaching the point where certain kinds of them can justifiably be treated like porn.

What we have here seems to be a terrorism/public massacre simulator. Seeing as the western world bizarrely finds violence a lot more palatable than sexuality, would anyone be remotely surprised to find that vendors such as Valve and the wider public don't particularly approve of the rape simulator games that are out there?

We're only going to see more of these things coming along, and at a certain point we have to stop seeing decisions to not distribute such material as censorship, and instead as the gaming equivalent of Netflix not wishing to stream hardcore porn. Handling these editorial decisions will undoubtedly be challenging, but as more simulators come along catering to violent and sexual fantasies — and let's make no mistake about it, things like Oculus Rift are going to unleash an avalanche of these things — it's something that has to be done.

I hate using terms like 'murder simulator' because I feel like I'm somehow channeling the ridiculousness of Jack Thompson, but we're no longer in an age where every game is acceptable for mainstream consumption and should be available in every store. Some of the stuff out there now is no Leisure Suit Larry or Grand Theft Auto, but it should always be available via the vendors that are OK with providing it.

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I hate using terms like 'murder simulator' because I feel like I'm somehow channeling the ridiculousness of Jack Thompson, but we're no longer in an age where every game is acceptable for mainstream consumption and should be available in every store. Some of the stuff out there now is no Leisure Suit Larry or Grand Theft Auto, but it should always be available via the vendors that are OK with providing it.

 

I agree with everything you've said, but especially how it comes through in this last point. I cannot understand how this is being framed as "consumer rights," except that it's the buzzword du jour for the segment of game-playing people likely to get outraged at a hyper-violent video game getting dumped by a distributor. The demand to be able to buy whatever you want whenever you want, regardless of a business' prerogative to choose their own inventory and deny service to certain clients, shows the general understanding of the video game marketplace to be far from developed.

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Even though they've made it a lot easier to get onto Steam, Valve still doesn't let every game on there. If they did they wouldn't need Greenlight. The arbitrary nature of their curation might be a bit of a problem (less than it used to be though), but if that's what you want to fight against then why pick this game to make a big fuss about? I didn't see the outrage three years ago when indie games getting onto Steam was reserved for ones the press gushed about or for people who met some Valve employee at a convention. To me this just looks like people playing devil's advocate. They can quote Voltaire until their keyboards break, but if you only stand up for vile crap like this then I can't take the argument seriously.

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There's no obligation for Steam to sell it, and there's no obligation for them not to. But I hate that in at least one other place I discuss games stuff, discussion of Hatred turned into a technical discussion about Steam, monopolies, etc. then speculation on an ideal world replacement for Steam.

 

Hatred is a hateful game made by a bunch of dissembling pricks who are apparently "not Neo-Nazis", but wear neo-nazi shirts for their studio promo shots, consider far right facebook pages to be "good sources of information" while claiming to not support them, and describe their game as "a response to  p o l i t i c a l  c o r r e c t n e s s". Basically they set every prick alarm bell ringing. Fuck 'em if making this game is their idea of useful or worthwhile.

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I also can't help but think that it looks like everyone the guy is "featured" killing in the video looks to be black, hispanic, or asian? awful lot of black cops in the world of hatred. 

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Valve put it back on Greenlight, but doing well on Greenlight doesn't mandate that they list it, right? Greenlight is about giving them a filter and guidance on what to approve, not a mandate.

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But the Doug Lombardi quote to eurogamer that Pepyri posted ("Based on what we've seen on Greenlight we would not publish Hatred on Steam. As such we'll be taking it down") suggests that they've changed their minds and they would publish it, so they've put it back on Greenlight...

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