I Had A Random Thought...

[Twig]

Well, DANG, that wasn't really my point.

 

Also, I used to very strongly agree with that sentiment, but the problem with that logic is that "fuck" is a very strong word. It has a very strongly negative connotation. Just because "fudge" or "frick" or whatever might have the same meaning behind it for the speaker doesn't mean it affects people who hear it in the same way. Not that I necessarily want to associate with someone who's offended by fucks, because I'm a frequent fuck-user, but that's also not really the point.

[SecretAsianMan]

Well, DANG, that wasn't really my point.

 

Also, I used to very strongly agree with that sentiment, but the problem with that logic is that "fuck" is a very strong word. It has a very strongly negative connotation. Just because "fudge" or "frick" or whatever might have the same meaning behind it for the speaker doesn't mean it affects people who hear it in the same way. Not that I necessarily want to associate with someone who's offended by fucks, because I'm a frequent fuck-user, but that's also not really the point.

I agree with that.  I used to have a friend who was Mormon and while he never told me so, I knew he was uncomfortable whenever I said the words fuck, shit, damn, etc.  So when he was around I would replace them with other, usually made up words.  We both knew what I meant, but it made him feel better hanging around me and I wasn't going to put his beliefs into question over something as trivial as "darn".

[Zeusthecat]

Nowhere in the bible does it say that you can't say fuck, shit, damn, asshole, bitch, son of a bitch, douche, or super douche. I get the whole "don't use the lord's name in vain" crap but I never understood exactly why I was supposed to be offended by those other words.

 

It's funny to think that I was once grounded for saying "ass". What a motherfuckin' waste of a grounding. I didn't even learn my lesson.

[Ucantalas]

"But mom! Billy has a donkey named Jim and its morbidly obese! That's why I said 'Jim's a fat ass!' It's in the Bible, so I can't get in trouble for saying it!"

[Malice Song]

I never understood exactly why I was supposed to be offended by those other words.

 

Yeah, this is my baby request for today, but if someone could explain this ...

It ain't my first language and different cultures have different approaches expressed in language, but surely there's a difference whether I tell another adult "that movie was fucking great" or a child to "go fuck yourself", so already the word itself is merely an expression and it's all about context. Why anyone would be universally offended by a word itself just baffles the shit out of me.

[TychoCelchuuu]

The only reason you say "that movie was fucking great" in the first place rather than "gee golly gosh, that movie sure was dandy!" is because "fuck" as a word has a certain context in our culture, a context which includes causing people who dislike the use of lewd/bawdy/rude language to take offense. If you do not understand this, you're welcome to study linguistics and sociology until you do (it's a very complex thing!) but the classic nerd move of saying "my logical Vulcan brain doesn't understand why two words with similar definitions are not interchangeable in all contexts" is pretty ridiculous. Language means more than just bare translations. It's a complex social phenomenon that communicates attitudes and feelings as much as it does simple meanings. "Fuck" is a word that offends some people, not because there's a magic combination of letters that is automatically offensive, but because English is a language with certain words that are just by default offensive, and fuck is one of them. Such is life! In fact, it's not even the English language itself that's responsible for this, but the culture around it. See, for instance, the massive difference in how offensive "cunt" is depending on whether you are in America or the UK.

[Zeusthecat]

While I could go and study linguistics and sociology to educate my nerd brain I don't think it would change my opinion on this much. I would probably still think it is stupid for any person in any society to be offended by a word without understanding why they are offended by it. But as you hinted at, I am glad people like this are all over the place because it sure is fun having words that I can use and they can't because of the self imposed barrier they have put up.

[Gormongous]

While I could go and study linguistics and sociology to educate my nerd brain I don't think it would change my opinion on this much. I would probably still think it is stupid for any person in any society to be offended by a word without understanding why they are offended by it.

 

Yeah, and it's also stupid that I find it uncomfortable being around other naked bodies when I am around my own naked body all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm going to move to a nudist colony or spend much time checking out the dong bros in Outlast.

[Zeusthecat]

I see what you're getting at but isn't there a difference between being uncomfortable and offended? And I'm not saying people that are offended by foul language should jump in and start using that language, I just think they shouldn't give a shit about other people using that language if they can't even understand why they are offended by it to begin with.

[Gormongous]

I see what you're getting at but isn't there a difference between being uncomfortable and offended? And I'm not saying people that are offended by foul language should jump in and start using that language, I just think they shouldn't give a shit about other people using that language if they can't even understand why they are offended by it to begin with.

 

I personally feel as though the line between discomfort and offense is drawn by courage and not by sense. I get uncomfortable instead of offended because I'm shy and introspective. A louder, prouder me would probably get offended instead of uncomfortable.

[Malice Song]

If language means more than just bare translations (which I agree with), then surely context is a deciding factor in this, which is what I was proposing. Unless of course the recipient of the message completely shuts out everything else and focuses purely on that one word and letting it colour the entire message in a predetermined way, when there's so much more to it. Just take SecretAsianMan's example. Surely it is very reasonable to cut down on swearing or completely cut it out, if you know that your friend is uncomfortable with it. So if you use it regularly under different circumstances, but in that situation accidentally drop your first f-bomb two hours into a conversation, don't you have to take into account the whole course of the conversation? How can this, when it's clearly showing the effort of restraint, be equally offensive as if he didn't care, at all? I realize that this has nothing to do with whether the word itself is offensive, but at that point it hardly even matters anymore, because my point wasn't

 

"my logical Vulcan brain doesn't understand why two words with similar definitions are not interchangeable in all contexts"

 

but rather:

"Words are a tool for communication. Words themself hardly matter beyond the point of conveying meaning. If people twist the message into something else than its meaning by focusing on a single word while completely disregarding context, that's just ridiculous."

 

And yes, unless the implication here is that the function of the message is to actually offend the recipient or make him uncomfortable, twisting the message is exactly what is happening, if the  recipient is genuinely offended.

 

I did ask for an explanation and I got one. And I will reflect upon it further. For now, I fail to agree.

 

On a hopefully more amusing note I'll let a far wiser man than me speak on the topic in the meantime:

 

[Zeusthecat]

I personally feel as though the line between discomfort and offense is drawn by courage and not by sense. I get uncomfortable instead of offended because I'm shy and introspective. A louder, prouder me would probably get offended instead of uncomfortable.

 

I guess I see the two as separate things entirely. Spiders make me uncomfortable, this chair I'm sitting in makes me uncomfortable, but I am not offended by either thing.

 

To me, taking offense to something is along the same lines as thinking that something is morally wrong. So I imagine that a person that is offended by foul language probably thinks it is morally wrong to use that language. That is the part I find stupid. But please correct me if you think I'm drawing the wrong conclusion.

 

Using your example, I doubt you are actually offended by naked bodies in every context. You would probably not be offended by a naked body in an art gallery but maybe you would in another context.

[Gormongous]

I guess, for me but maybe not for others, "offense" is simply internal or external action inspired by discomfort or upset, whether moral, sexual, physical, emotional, or social. Sometimes, one of my friends will have me watch a French extremist horror movie like Martyrs or Inside with them and I'll find myself wavering between passive discomfort and active offense from scene to scene.

 

I can understand if this is a barrier that's not as permeable for other people, though.

[Twig]

I personally feel as though the line between discomfort and offense is drawn by courage and not by sense. I get uncomfortable instead of offended because I'm shy and introspective. A louder, prouder me would probably get offended instead of uncomfortable.

I think there's something to that and feel similarly in probably similar situations, BUT I also disagree that the word "fuck" should be considered offensive, context of language aside. I understand and respect that some people are offended by said word, but I also make it a point to filter those people out of my lives, because I'm not going to NOT say that word. My friends are the people I'm most comfortable around, and if I start to feel awkward around someone because they don't like the words I use, then, well, WELL.

 

I make exceptions to that rule when I realize that the word I'm saying could be offensive for rather specific reasons. Example: I once used the word "bitch" around a woman as we were all hanging out at Thanksgiving dinner. I believe I called my friend a bitch because he beat me in Smash Bros. (teehee). I learned later that I'd made her uncomfortable, and although I know for a fact I didn't mean it in any sexist fashion, I also know that it's one of those words that HAS a connotation beyond just being a naughty word... So I try not to use it anymore, just like I stopped using the word "gay" derogatorily back in high school.

 

The word "fuck" doesn't have a similar connotation. It's just offensive because it's offensive.

 

I realize that's probably not exactly what you were trying to say. Just talkin' and whatevs!

[TychoCelchuuu]

If language means more than just bare translations (which I agree with), then surely context is a deciding factor in this, which is what I was proposing. Unless of course the recipient of the message completely shuts out everything else and focuses purely on that one word and letting it colour the entire message in a predetermined way, when there's so much more to it. Just take SecretAsianMan's example. Surely it is very reasonable to cut down on swearing or completely cut it out, if you know that your friend is uncomfortable with it. So if you use it regularly under different circumstances, but in that situation accidentally drop your first f-bomb two hours into a conversation, don't you have to take into account the whole course of the conversation? How can this, when it's clearly showing the effort of restraint, be equally offensive as if he didn't care, at all? I realize that this has nothing to do with whether the word itself is offensive, but at that point it hardly even matters anymore, because my point wasn't

 

[the Vulcan stuff]

 

but rather:

"Words are a tool for communication. Words themself hardly matter beyond the point of conveying meaning. If people twist the message into something else than its meaning by focusing on a single word while completely disregarding context, that's just ridiculous."

 

And yes, unless the implication here is that the function of the message is to actually offend the recipient or make him uncomfortable, twisting the message is exactly what is happening, if the  recipient is genuinely offended.

 

I did ask for an explanation and I got one. And I will reflect upon it further. For now, I fail to agree.

 

On a hopefully more amusing note I'll let a far wiser man than me speak on the topic in the meantime:

 

The Stephen Fry video doesn't say anything relevant. He's just saying "who gives a shit if you're offended?" That has nothing to do with whether and why people get offended about certain words, and whether they are right to do so.

If we take SecretAsianMan's example, think about why a "fuck" would accidentally end up in what he's saying in a conversation with his friend. It's because SecretAsianMan is the kind of guy who goes around saying "fuck." (Like me, and like a lot of other people.) Why are there people like this, who go around saying "fuck" even though they are perfectly aware that some people find it offensive? Well, it's very complicated! It's also different for every person. Some of us agree with Stephen Fry and don't give a fuck if we offend people. Some of us are edgy and want to offend people. Some people started saying "fuck" as teenagers to be edgy and have picked up the habit. Some of us hang out around people who say "fuck" and thus picked it up for no reason other than it's just a normal word that shows up in conversation. Some people like the way the word sounds. Most people are a mix of some or all of these reasons.

Now, look at it from the other point of view. Why do people take offense at the word "fuck?" Some people take offense because they were brought up to think that nobody should say that word because it's impolite to use it in conversation. Some people take offense because the word (like most obscenities) has an "edgy" connotation and they want to take the edge off of life, or at least not be exposed to it. Some people think that certain words are "curse" words and that cursing is a sin. And so on and so forth.

It's simply ridiculous to go around saying people ought not to get offended at certain things because your super logical perfect nerd Vulcan brain sees words only as antiseptic tools for communication of rational ideas rather than culturally charged things that convey much more than their bare dictionary definitions. So what if SecretAsianMan didn't intend to offend his friend when he said "fuck?" What are you, the offense police? Does it offend you when people get offended for reasons you don't agree with? Why don't you just leave people alone and let them get offended about whatever the fuck they want to get offended about?

Taking offense to things is not a perfectly logical process, and the words that cause offense do so not necessarily because they are calculated to do so but because they exist in a complex web of cultural meaning that far exceeds anything you'd ever find in a dictionary. It's not logical or rational but nobody claims it is. You can't just go to a dictionary, look up the implication of "fuck," say "look here, it doesn't mean anything offensive unless you misconstrue SecretAsianMan's intentions!" and call it a day. Some words offend regardless of whether the person saying them intends to offend or not - I'm sure you can think of lots of examples, some of them racially charged and hostile, others very innocent, like fuck.

I'm not saying it's a good thing that the world works like this (or that it's a bad thing). I'm just trying to say it's ridiculous for you to come in and tell people what they should and shouldn't get offended at on the basis of a completely bankrupt theory of what words are. Words aren't tidy parcels of meaning. "Fuck" is not the same as "frig" even though you can swap one in for the other and get basically the same sentence.

I think there's something to that and feel similarly in probably similar situations, BUT I also disagree that the word "fuck" should be considered offensive, context of language aside. I understand and respect that some people are offended by said word, but I also make it a point to filter those people out of my lives, because I'm not going to NOT say that word. My friends are the people I'm most comfortable around, and if I start to feel awkward around someone because they don't like the words I use, then, well, WELL.

 

I make exceptions to that rule when I realize that the word I'm saying could be offensive for rather specific reasons. Example: I once used the word "bitch" around a woman as we were all hanging out at Thanksgiving dinner. I believe I called my friend a bitch because he beat me in Smash Bros. (teehee). I learned later that I'd made her uncomfortable, and although I know for a fact I didn't mean it in any sexist fashion, I also know that it's one of those words that HAS a connotation beyond just being a naughty word... So I try not to use it anymore, just like I stopped using the word "gay" derogatorily back in high school.

 

The word "fuck" doesn't have a similar connotation. It's just offensive because it's offensive.

 

I realize that's probably not exactly what you were trying to say. Just talkin' and whatevs!

Some things just are the way they are. It's no use saying "fuck" shouldn't be offensive, because if it weren't, there would be some other word that served its offensive purpose. In fact, we have a non-offensive word for fuck! It's "frig." You can use that if you want to say fuck without offending people.

"But Tycho," you say, "if I said frig I'd sound like a goofball!" Well yes. Frig is a baby word for baby people. Fuck is a grownup word for people who mean fucking business. You know why? Because it's offensive! The fact that fuck is offensive, and that only adults get to say it without getting in trouble and even then not in all circumstances, gives "fuck" the power that makes it a word you want to use when you say fuck. If fuck wasn't offensive, it would be frig. And nobody is satisfied with frig.

[Zeusthecat]

Twig, I pretty much agree with everything you said.

 

I just think it is stupid for somebody to think that other people shouldn't use words that they find offensive unless there is some kind of logical reasoning behind it. I think the whole 'bitch' and 'fuck' examples Twig gave pretty much sums up what I'm getting at.

 

Gormongous, the French extremist horror movie thing is an interesting example. I guess I still see the foul language issue as a slightly different kind of thing because with foul language, you don't necessarily have to participate. However, when watching a movie with a friend, you have no choice but to participate so I think it would be perfectly reasonable to expect your friend not to put those kinds of movies if it offends you.

[SecretAsianMan]

Words

That was weird for me to read.  Not offensive or uncomfortable or whatever it is we're arguing about, just weird.

[Malice Song]

Why don't you just leave people alone and let them get offended about whatever the fuck they want to get offended about?

I would have thought it's terribly obvious, but I might have miscommunicated. It's the expectation that what other people are offended by should have an impact on other people's behaviour to a bigger extent than what common courtesy would dictate.

People can get offended over whatever they want, however as soon as I am supposed to change my language because of that, at the very least I inquire why that is the case, as I am doing now, to figure out an appropriate reaction.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Well, you might think that offending people generally isn't good, because to feel offended isn't fun, so to the extent that we can refrain from offending people by doing simple things like not saying fuck around them, maybe it's worth doing that instead of saying "unless you can give me a logical reason that convinces my robot brain to stop making you feel bad, I'm just going to keep making you feel bad, beep boop, deal with with it." Or you might agree with Stephen Fry and not give a shit. Much depends on whether you care about people feeling bad because of what you've said or not, I think.

What I thought you (and Twig) were saying is that because there's no logical reason to be offended, it's their fault they are offended and not your fault. My point, though, is that it's nobody's fault. Or more accurately it's society's fault. Society made these words offensive, and you don't have to like it, but you do have to accept that you will offend people sometimes if you use them in certain situations. That's life!

[Zeusthecat]

I think I kind of have to agree with Tycho on why we use words like 'fuck' instead of 'frig'. It's basically to say "fuck you" to people who are offended by it. Which is ironically a lot stronger of a statement to make than the one I originally made.

 

So does that mean all of us that like to use the word 'fuck' inherently think it is silly to be offended by that word?

[TychoCelchuuu]

I think I kind of have to agree with Tycho on why we use words like 'fuck' instead of 'frig'. It's basically to say "fuck you" to people who are offended by it. Which is ironically a lot stronger of a statement to make than the one I originally made.

 

So does that mean all of us that like to use the word 'fuck' inherently think it is silly to be offended by that word?

It's inherently silly to get offended by any word because the notion of "offense" is a silly thing and there's nothing inherently offensive, just stuff that society has deemed offensive. Offense is silly because why should you care what someone else said? Sticks and stones, etc! But humans are inherently silly creatures, and 90% of what we do on any given day is silly, so you either learn to live in this silly, silly world of ours, or you construct a fantasy land in which everything works rationally and logically and then you castigate people for failing to conform to your Vulcan conception of life even though if you thought about it you'd realize that you yourself are hardly Spock.

[Drewcifer]

I'm not sure what this is a reflection of, but when someone is offended by something I say or do, I usually just stop saying or doing it until they are gone. I don't try to figure out why it was offending them, I usually just chalk it up to them being weird or something. What was offending them is typically something petty in my eyes, so I usually see knocking it off as less energy-consuming than trying to understand them.
 

[Gormongous]

That was weird for me to read.  Not offensive or uncomfortable or whatever it is we're arguing about, just weird.

 

Yeah, despite whatever I may have said thus far, I think people have every right to get offended about whatever offends them and voice it if they so please, so long as they don't impinge on the right of others to get offended about whatever offends them. Maybe the conversation should end there, full stop.

[Twig]

Some things just are the way they are. It's no use saying "fuck" shouldn't be offensive, because if it weren't, there would be some other word that served its offensive purpose. In fact, we have a non-offensive word for fuck! It's "frig." You can use that if you want to say fuck without offending people.

"But Tycho," you say, "if I said frig I'd sound like a goofball!" Well yes. Frig is a baby word for baby people. Fuck is a grownup word for people who mean fucking business. You know why? Because it's offensive! The fact that fuck is offensive, and that only adults get to say it without getting in trouble and even then not in all circumstances, gives "fuck" the power that makes it a word you want to use when you say fuck. If fuck wasn't offensive, it would be frig. And nobody is satisfied with frig.

I understand what you're saying, it's just that I... disagree, I guess. Sure, if fuck wasn't offensive some other word would be. I would then say that other word shouldn't be offensive. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world, and people are going to find all manner of things offensive, even at their most innocent, but well what're you gonna do.

 

Your post about the silliness of being offended, however, I completely agree with. we're all silly.

[Malice Song]

Well, you might think that offending people generally isn't good, because to feel offended isn't fun, so to the extent that we can refrain from offending people by doing simple things like not saying fuck around them

 

And that is exactly why I brought up SecretAsianMan's example. It's also what I mean by common courtesy. If I know someone dislikes certain words, I try not to use them. By the same expression of common courtesy I would expect that an accidental slip isn't perceived as a personal attack.

 

What I thought you (and Twig) were saying is that because there's no logical reason to be offended, it's their fault they are offended and not your fault.

 

Oh no, what I was saying, and maybe wasn't clear enough in doing so, isn't that it's their fault, if they're offended, but potentially how they deal with it. I'm as much against telling them what to think as I am against telling me what to say, but if the latter is the desired outcome of stating to be offended, then I think my perfect logical vulcan nerd brain has every right to ask for a logical explanation to why it should censor itself.

And you may consider this petty, but I think it's important to seek a dialog about these things, just because it potentially sets a horrible precedent, as people can be offended by very different things and not all of those situations can nor should be treated equally by the offender. Hence the initial question. I think it's utterly stupid not to do something, just because it offends someone, but it's almost always worthwhile to try to understand why that is the case.

 

Yeah, despite whatever I may have said thus far, I think people have every right to get offended about whatever offends them and voice it if they so please, so long as they don't impinge on the right of others to get offended about whatever offends them. Maybe the conversation should end there, full stop.

 

If my reading comprehension doesn't fail me, this seems like something everyone can agree on.