Feminism

[tberton]

I don't know, I thought that article was fantastic. I see what you're saying about the conciliatory tone, but a) I don't think it's actually that conciliatory (at least, the people she's addressing probably would find it more damning than conciliatory) and you kind of have to take on that tone when you're directly responding to an article about how feeling attacked by a movement makes you unwilling to identify with it. Her goal is to make nerds who had shitty childhoods understand that those experiences don't cancel out structural privileges: to do that, she needs to recognize and legitimize those feelings. Not doing so wouldn't really advance the conversation.

 

Furthermore, she doesn't really imply that a lack of reconciliation on the part of other feminist or anti-racist activists is what has made the conversation about nerd entitlement difficult up until now. Had she done that, I could see the problem with the tone. But she actually puts the onus for change on the entitled nerds (a group which, I think we should admit, many members of this board probably belonged to and sometimes still do - I know that the feelings addressed in the article are ones I've had many times).

[Gwardinen]

I found it interesting and worthwhile. This line made me laugh, despite (or perhaps because of) its truth:

 

Privilege doesn't mean you don't suffer, which, I know, totally blows.

 

It's shitty that toxic societal arrangements manage to screw us coming and going. Both those of us in the position of privilege and those of us not get to have the crappy formative life experiences, and then the oppressed get to be structurally oppressed even afterwards, and the privileged get to realise they're part of the problem.

 

Thanks, complex societal web of gender roles, traditions and perspectives. Ya got me again.

[Bjorn]

Trying to decide my feelings on this recent article about nerd culture's repudiation of "privilege" as a concept: http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/on-nerd-entitlement-rebel-alliance-empire

 

Mostly, the extremely conciliatory tone has me ready to bristle, but it seems like it hits all the important points in a time when they need to be hit. So much of #GamerGate and associated trends have been fueled on the entitlement of a social group that perceives itself as oppressed even when complicit (or actively engaged) in oppression.

There have been a bunch of pieces lately trying to explain to people from privileged groups how shit works. I've been trying to think of something super simple, something you can use to illustrate at a very fundamental level the difference between how men and women are treated by society.

I think the best I've come up with is to discuss the difference between how men's and women's chests are treated. A majority of states have finally made it legal for women to go topless anywhere a man can be topless, and yet women are far, far, far more likely to be arrested, ticketed or harassed for being topless (even if its completely legal). Most people don't even know that it is legal in the vast majority of places in the US. It seems like a good angle to try, as it short circuits a lot of the bullshit people try to spout in denying how sexist the US (and the rest of the world) is.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Unfortunately with that example you could have people counterring that there is an inherent biological difference between men and women in that sense and that breasts are a sexual organ.

Which is a shitty argument but likely to come up at some point.

[Bjorn]

That's actually perfect though, it lets you start talking about the nature of objectification.  Breasts aren't sexual, at all.  Totally not needed for sex, just for the rearing of infants.  Our society has objectified them.  On paper, a part of the body whose primary function is the feeding of babies ought to be something that's not sexualized. 

 

That's why I think the bare chest thing is perfect.  There are a whole bunch of different ways to try and dismiss it, and I'm there's an interesting way to demonstrate how each of those dismissals is fundamentally flawed. 

[SuperBiasedMan]

Oh I misunderstood. I thought you intended it to be the path of least resistance to demonstrating the point.
Carry on!

[Bjorn]

Right!  Yeah, I intended it as an entry point to a conversation, not as the end of one.  So many people bristle at words like "privilege".  I'm even seeing more and more of my very liberal, activist friends getting a bit tired of social justice language, feeling like that language is more of a burden than a good tool.  And stuff like income inequality is very nebulous, few men see that in action in their own lives.  So I've been trying to avoid using words or topics like those to discuss it.  But walking around bare breasted is something so simple, that anyone can engage with that as an idea. 

[Bjorn]

Perfect example popped up on my news feed today, Chelsea Handler continues to screw with Instagram over their no boobs policy.  Her crusade started over a photo satirizing Putin's shirtless horse photos.

 

She reposted the Putin pic, writing, “If instagram takes this down again, you’re saying Vladimir Putin Has more 1st amendment rights than me. Talk to your bosses.” It was again deleted less than an hour later.

[BadHat]

Trying to decide my feelings on this recent article about nerd culture's repudiation of "privilege" as a concept: http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/on-nerd-entitlement-rebel-alliance-empire

 

Mostly, the extremely conciliatory tone has me ready to bristle, but it seems like it hits all the important points in a time when they need to be hit. So much of #GamerGate and associated trends have been fueled on the entitlement of a social group that perceives itself as oppressed even when complicit (or actively engaged) in oppression.

 

I thought this was fantastic until she got to the nerd ego massaging.

 

"I believe in all of us. Nerds are brilliant. We are great at learning stuff. We can do anything we put our minds to..."

 

I doubt she meant it this way, but to me this is exactly the kind of attitude aggrieved nerds have about their own usefulness that creates these shitty, entitled points of view. People who, as she pointed out, suffered real trauma and real alienation because they failed to live up to the masculine ideals that society puts on young men, are then given this convenient out to declare themselves nerdy and therefore, in some way, more capable and useful than the douchey jocks who made their formative years such a hellscape. But it's a load of shit because the only requirement for being a "nerd," or a "nice guy," or, hell, a "gamer," is that you're not one of the crowd, that you don't fit in. It occurs to me that these identities are built primarily out of just being ostracised. Therefore, any attempt by another marginalised group to claim the same might be met with scepticism because they've built a kind of ownership out of their own outsider status.

 

It sucks because no matter how appealing this is, no matter how hard-won it must feel for these guys (and girls?) to finally feel a little comfortable in their own skin after society has resoundingly declared them worthless, a loser, it still plays into the same shitty gender paradigms as those loathsome jocks who made their lives hell. Because really, the jocks weren't doing anything wrong except for "being a jerk." They were just playing the game, and winning. Being a "nerd" is just a convenient way to frame your own position in the game as less privileged than others. In no way does it force people to engage with the idea that the game is fucking rigged, and they're just playing their part, willingly or not.

 

(Feel like it's important to point out I'm not talking about anyone who identifies as a nerd, or gamer, or whatever, just that it's an attractive identity for bullied or misunderstood people to latch onto and use as a shield against criticism or self-reflection. Also that, even though I describe this in harsh terms, I don't really hold it against most people for falling into these traps. More I blame the culture that surrounds it for reinforcing the same shitty stereotypes for socially inept guys to play into (see: every mainstream underdog story since the year 1980). Also also, that I'm speaking partially from personal experience and am therefore in no way above any of this.)

[Gormongous]

I thought this was fantastic until she got to the nerd ego massaging.

 

"I believe in all of us. Nerds are brilliant. We are great at learning stuff. We can do anything we put our minds to..."

 

I doubt she meant it this way, but to me this is exactly the kind of attitude aggrieved nerds have about their own usefulness that creates these shitty, entitled points of view. People who, as she pointed out, suffered real trauma and real alienation because they failed to live up to the masculine ideals that society puts on young men, are then given this convenient out to declare themselves nerdy and therefore, in some way, more capable and useful than the douchey jocks who made their formative years such a hellscape. But it's a load of shit because the only requirement for being a "nerd," or a "nice guy," or, hell, a "gamer," is that you're not one of the crowd, that you don't fit in. It occurs to me that these identities are built primarily out of just being ostracised. Therefore, any attempt by another marginalised group to claim the same might be met with scepticism because they've built a kind of ownership out of their own outsider status.

 

It sucks because no matter how appealing this is, no matter how hard-won it must feel for these guys (and girls?) to finally feel a little comfortable in their own skin after society has resoundingly declared them worthless, a loser, it still plays into the same shitty gender paradigms as those loathsome jocks who made their lives hell. Because really, the jocks weren't doing anything wrong except for "being a jerk." They were just playing the game, and winning. Being a "nerd" is just a convenient way to frame your own position in the game as less privileged than others. In no way does it force people to engage with the idea that the game is fucking rigged, and they're just playing their part, willingly or not.

 

(Feel like it's important to point out I'm not talking about anyone who identifies as a nerd, or gamer, or whatever, just that it's an attractive identity for bullied or misunderstood people to latch onto and use as a shield against criticism or self-reflection. Also that, even though I describe this in harsh terms, I don't really hold it against most people for falling into these traps. More I blame the culture that surrounds it for reinforcing the same shitty stereotypes for socially inept guys to play into (see: every mainstream underdog story since the year 1980). Also also, that I'm speaking partially from personal experience and am therefore in no way above any of this.)

 

Thanks, you managed to put your finger on what bothered me about it. As much as I like the intent and so much of the language in the article, I don't really see what good is a brutally honest, albeit ultimately compassionate, deconstruction of nerd privilege if the upshot is basically that nerd privilege is still a positive thing, if properly understood and directed. There is nothing innately good or bad about being a nerd. It's not even an identity that possesses any traits outside of having experienced social trauma as a young adult. Flattering the intelligence of nerds might make criticism a bit more palatable, but it also validates the more toxic version of their worldview, which is one of entitlement and self-righteousness. In my mind, it almost defeats the point of an otherwise good article.

[Griddlelol]

I wrote a long reply complaining about nerd culture but you know what, it can be summed up in a few words:

Fuck nerd culture.

[Apple Cider]

This is why I generally don't engage with Laurie Penny's work. She's done some shitty things in the past but overall, her writing is not really radical or really going in the direction of cultural deconstruction that I wish to see in things I support. She also jumped into the Gamergate fray too with this whole "we" nonsense despite her generally stepping over all the women who have been in gaming culture writing about harassment issues for a really long time. 

 

I have no interest in raising up nerd culture when it's largely an extension of patriarchal values and consumerism sorta smushed together. Intellect being lauded as a top priority is also gross on a lot of levels - it's definitely what feeds into this "objectivity/rationality" garbage that a lot of nerdlords use to devalue people's emotional outpourings.

[tberton]

Hmm, I just looked over the article again and realized I had skimmed the last two paragraphs, missing that line (I do that sometimes). I agree that that section is tipping over into ego massaging and I wish she hadn't done that. I think the piece is great up until that point.

[Dewar]

I wrote a long reply complaining about nerd culture but you know what, it can be summed up in a few words:

Fuck nerd culture.

You do realize you are posting on an internet forum created for a podcast about video games. You are nerd culture.

[Gormongous]

You do realize you are posting on an internet forum created for a podcast about video games. You are nerd culture.

 

Yeah? I can also say fuck masculinity and fuck white people, neither makes me a hypocrite. Sometimes the things of which we are a part are incredibly shitty and deserve to be called out as such by the people benefiting the most from them.

[Dewar]

I guess I'm drawing the parallel that "Fuck Masculinity" means "No one should ever be masculine ever." Is that not the way you see that statement, because if you're trying to tell me that I can't be nerdy ever, I'll just take my leave of this thread.

[Bjorn]

I take "Fuck Nerd Culture" or "Fuck Masculinity" to be saying, "Fuck the toxic and harmful baggage these cultures carry and propagate".  "Fuck Masculinity" means saying fuck off to any social norms that dictate that men need to present as masculine in order to be respected, not that men or women can't be masculine.  Saying "Fuck Nerd Culture" means saying fuck off to the pressures that some nerds put on one another to conform in certain ways and fuck off to the bullshit gatekeeping that some nerds have a history of engaging in, not that people can't be nerdy. 

 

Honestly, I will never not be nerdy, but its harder and harder for me to identify with greater nerd culture in a lot of places.  Or maybe its just that nerd culture is fragmenting.  The culture we have here is different from the culture at AV Club is different from the culture in Reddit gaming threads.  These places no longer feel as unified as they once did, and that's not a good or bad thing, just what it is. 

[Dewar]

I feel that statements like that generalize the issue far too much to be useful. There are problems in video games, there are problems with the internet, there are problems with sports. Talking about the problems in those things that we enjoy is good, just deciding to divorce yourself from those things doesn't do anyone any good. I, for one, owe a lot of my current situation (which is mostly positive) to nerd culture. I have no idea what I would have done as a child if I hadn't grabbed that Star Wars RPG book off the shelf and forced myself to make friends just so I'd have someone to play with.

Edit: I should mention that I understand that the original comment was hyperbole, and I don't know why it happened to strike a nerve with me. I'm probably just being overly cranky today.

[Bjorn]

Edit: I should mention that I understand that the original comment was hyperbole, and I don't know why it happened to strike a nerve with me. I'm probably just being overly cranky today.

 

We all have those days.

[Problem Machine]

It is basically a #NotAllNerds situation though

[chummer]

Maddy Myers wrote another post about getting and not getting jobs in journalism both in and out of video games.

 

Getting hired is about luck. Which is a sort of nice way of saying that it’s about privilege. And I have a lot of that! But … not enough, I guess, or not quite the right kind.

[Apple Cider]

We all have those days.

 

I have a lot of those days, for sure. But yeah, "fuck XYZ" can sometimes be what you want to say when it's hard to go into a 4000 word deconstruction of why it sucks. Masculinity isn't bad, per se, as I outlined about femininity. It's what we are TOLD it SHOULD be and WILL BE that is horrible and poking at that and radically demolishing it is ultimately what gives me the strength to go on. Because as they stand right now, it's fucking horrible and we deserve better.

 

Edit: Also Maddy Myers is a fucking goddess and I love her writing and I wish she got paid enough to do it for a living.

[Merus]

She also jumped into the Gamergate fray too with this whole "we" nonsense despite her generally stepping over all the women who have been in gaming culture writing about harassment issues for a really long time. 

 

This reads too much like paying one's dues for me to be comfortable. I hope I'm misunderstanding the metaphor here.

 

It's interesting that Maddy Myers had a fairly different experience to Zoe Quinn and Cara Ellison with the Giant Bomb community. Maybe in the intervening six months they had a good hard look at themselves; maybe Zoe and Cara are more in tune with the tone of Giant Bomb than Maddy is, who knows.

[Apple Cider]

I don't think you have to pay dues to write about any experience and I daresay some of the best reports of gamergate harassment were from outside sources, but I do take issue with talking about it as if it was /communal/ by someone who isn't really a part of the community of women who have been addressing this stuff regularly and giving no credit to their work. It feels opportunistic, and yes, this is something that is a huge problem in mainstream media press. 

 

The bottom line is I've long not liked Laurie Penny's practises nor her way of going about things in her work and this is just one more thing that crossed heavily into the area I confront the most (though I also do a fair bit in more feminist activist circles and I didn't like her work there either.)

[Griddlelol]

You do realize you are posting on an internet forum created for a podcast about video games. You are nerd culture.

I'm not though. Liking video games doesn't make me into nerd, it's merely a part of a greater person. It's like saying because I like sports, I'm also jock culture.