Feminism

[Nachimir]

I wish we could stop pretending that meaningful social change is going to come from sources like Giantbomb, who will always be shackled to the demands of their community.

 

This. It's going to take new spaces, events and communities to create healthier, more widespread games culture. Fighting internet assholes burns too much out (people, goodwill, trust) and they seem to be in infinite supply. I think opposition to assholes is strongest coming from leadership if at all possible:

 

I'd also like to point out that the GB crew is telling the people who are being assholes to the women speaking out to fuck off.

 

That's encouraging.

 

 

This is the worst - 

 

 

For me, "consistently annoyed" is a wild understatement.

 

I was outraged by the e-sports thing too, though not surprised as e-sports seem like a particular haven for scummy behaviour (which even I've been on the end of occasionally). The bigger of the two federations in question have clarified that they're trying to get e-sports accepted by non-games sporting bodies, and it sounds like women are a minority at their events. If you look at the list of games, the ones they're holding womens tournaments for are 1v1. Also, mixed gender competitions don't always go well in communities that harbour sexist, racist assholes.

 

I'm not trying to excuse their behaviour, because it is a truly shit situation that makes zero sense, but between their communities behaviour and the sporting federations they're trying to court, they really are likely to eat a massive shit sandwich whatever choice they make. The Finnish eSports Federation are following a line set down by the IeSF, who in turn are following a line set by an organisation higher up than them, who give themselves a much bigger remit than video games. As they point out in the updates to the PC Gamer piece, competition Chess has a similar gender divide. It's totally shitty, but it's a much bigger problem than one eSports organisation having a shitty policy. I hope there's a quicker solution and lobbying works, but what solves it might just be waiting for a bunch of old white dudes to die.

 

Even when they're well meaning, a lot of sports are regressive when it comes to gender. For instance, many cycling events are trying to encourage more women to take part… by segregating gender and making the womens' events shorter What they should do is make their events non-gendered and add a shorter tier for everyone who might be intimidated by longer distance races and sportives, regardless of gender.

 

I live with a badass landlady who can tackle 250K road rides, sometimes massively showing up men who patronise her on the start line.

[JonCole]

The ISeF's prize pool in 2013 for all of the games and brackets under its umbrella was about $50k. The International 4's prize pool is over $10 million. The former is trying to be a "real sport", the other is not and from what I understand welcomes women players. If Valve can disrupt gender standards AND offer more money to players by having innovative means of fund raising and viewing, other sports/games should really try to meet their standard. From an outsider perspective, ISeF isn't worth my time or attention, nor do I envy any of the competitors that have to abide by their "real sports" ambitions to have a shot at that pitiful "prize".

 

Note: I understand that Valve is very likely a crazy outlier. My supposition is that if they can do it at that scale, someone else can do it at a similar level of progressiveness and ambition but at a lower scale.

[Irishjohn]

This is the worst - 

 

 

For me, "consistently annoyed" is a wild understatement.

 

I accept the logic that there's a reason there are separate competitions for male and female tennis players (to use one example) though I don't really think he's thought that through. Thing is, even if you accept that as a blanket position, um... where do men have a physiological advantage when it comes to APM and macro/micro? We're getting into boys study maths and girls study home economics territory here.

I guess the moral of the story is that girls ruin everything. THANKS ladies.

[Dewar]

In fact there is an effort to consider DOTA2 a real sport, as it will make the process of getting Visas for competitors much easier. For better or worse, it seems to be a goal that a lot of organizations are chasing right now.

[Twig]

Also, I don't think there's anything saying women CAN'T participate in professional Dota 2 tournaments, but I think there are literally zero of them that could participate at the level of The International. Not because they can't be that good (obviously - that would be an absolutely stupid conclusion to reach), but because it's so hard for them to break in and get to that point. That's a separate issue from this dumb Hearthstone tournament bullshit, though.

 

There have been female Dota 2 tournaments, but... they're not very fun to watch. They're also sort of a joke. And they do a lot of that gross "aren't they so hot" gross gross.

 

I remember when some SC2 team recruited a female a couple years ago, and the shitstorm surrounding that.

 

Man it's fucking dumb. I actually think segregating genders in most "real sports" makes some real sense - a woman playing football is unlikely to not be completely dwarfed by the muscle-freaks she'd be playing alongside* - but with e-sports what the fuck does it matter?

 

*But then again, what if she wasn't? What if she proved she was a really good running back, for example, and didn't have to go toe-to-toe with a lineman? Sports are dumb. E-sports are dumb. Everything's dumb. Uarguh.

[prettyunsmart]

This is the worst - 

 

 

For me, "consistently annoyed" is a wild understatement.

 

At first I wrote "consistently depressed" but it didn't feel right at the time. Annoyed made sense in terms of an eSports organization making a stupid decision based on trying to look like "real" sports organizations. The comments, on the other hand are generally horrifying, which is why I didn't read them in the first place.

[JonCole]

I accept the logic that there's a reason there are separate competitions for male and female tennis players (to use one example) though I don't really think he's thought that through. Thing is, even if you accept that as a blanket position, um... where do men have a physiological advantage when it comes to APM and macro/micro? We're getting into boys study maths and girls study home economics territory here.

I guess the moral of the story is that girls ruin everything. THANKS ladies.

 

I don't even think it's that. He's just saying that sports in the past have used gender discrimination because of physical limitations, and so sports without physical differences between men and women should just comply because that's they way it always has been.

[Nachimir]

The ISeF's prize pool in 2013 for all of the games and brackets under its umbrella was about $50k. The International 4's prize pool is over $10 million. The former is trying to be a "real sport", the other is not and from what I understand welcomes women players. If Valve can disrupt gender standards AND offer more money to players by having innovative means of fund raising and viewing, other sports/games should really try to meet their standard. From an outsider perspective, ISeF isn't worth my time or attention, nor do I envy any of the competitors that have to abide by their "real sports" ambitions to have a shot at that pitiful "prize".

 

Note: I understand that Valve is very likely a crazy outlier. My supposition is that if they can do it at that scale, someone else can do it at a similar level of progressiveness and ambition but at a lower scale.

 

Sure, I agree, with you and Irishjohn. As I said, I wasn't trying to justify their decisions, but they're in a shitty tangle whatever they choose. It's kind of like watching a dog chase it's own tail, except a bunch of people get marginalized or victimised by bullshit.

[JonCole]

Also, I don't think there's anything saying women CAN'T participate in professional Dota 2 tournaments, but I think there are literally zero of them that could participate at the level of The International. Not because they can't be that good (obviously - that would be an absolutely stupid conclusion to reach), but because it's so hard for them to break in and get to that point. That's a separate issue from this dumb Hearthstone tournament bullshit, though.

 

Yeah, Dota's case is more of a cultural challenge, whereas this is an institutional challenge. I'd rather deal with the former than the latter, as institutional rules are completely arbitrary and in this case, can be super petty and draconian for no good reason.

[sclpls]

I think the segregation between men and women in sports in general is stupid, and should be disallowed. To understand why, we can look at an international competition like soccer. You can anticipate how well a national team performs based on the number of competitive matches it has played in (see here: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-isnt-the-u-s-mens-national-team-better-at-soccer/ ). By performing in more international competitions players gain greater exposure to competitive tactics and strategy, information, and practices. By segregating players, you are systematically putting at a disadvantage women athletes who are exposed to a more limited network of competitive advantages.

 

In fact, if one looks at the U.S. Supreme Court's opinion in Brown v. Board of Education you will see that the SCOTUS applied the exact same reasoning when they decided to desegregate schools. Separate but equal is always a lie because of the advantages that are accumulated through access to social networks. We also live in a society now where the division of labor has (imperfectly) ceased to be divided by gender. That sports gets these sorts of exemptions always boggles my mind.

[SecretAsianMan]

Physical sports are usually separated because of the argument that men on average are taller, stronger, faster, etc. than women biologically speaking.  It's not a very good argument of course (in fact it pretty much stinks), but it has more merit than "just because", which seems to be the one that e-sports is taking.  Video games do more than almost any other kind of competitive thing to present a level playing field because the biological differences don't mean jack.  Trying to separate based on gender in a thing that is gender blind makes zero sense.

[JonCole]

My favorite thing in those comments is that a commenter used this article as evidence that all male tournaments are legitimate - http://esportsexpress.com/2014/02/all-female-lol-tournament-may-threaten-fabric-of-gaming-society/

Where were all you when this happened?

http://esportsexpress.com/2014/02/all-female-lol-tournament-may-threaten-fabric-of-gaming-society/

So all female tournaments are fine, but all male are not?

Awkwardly, that is a satirical article illustrating the absurdity of single gender tournaments.

Not really, it is satirical in that they are trying to show that female only tournaments are fine, and it would be ridiculous to deny females their own tournament.

Just like it is ridiculous to deny men their own tournament.

I think he's trying to tell you that EsportsExpress = all satire. That article is trying to mock situations like this one. You're taking it too literal.

[Bjorn]

My favorite thing in those comments is that a commenter used this article as evidence that all male tournaments are legitimate - http://esportsexpress.com/2014/02/all-female-lol-tournament-may-threaten-fabric-of-gaming-society/

 

That piece is both hilarious and horrifying, as it's a bit close to reality at times.

 

Many male players are afraid that if the women’s league is a success, Riot may take their rape jokes away, callously undoing decades of hard work by gamers everywhere to normalize sexual assault in gaming culture.

 

“If they had polled the LoL community about what they’d rather have, rape jokes or gender equality, I’m pretty sure rape jokes would rape gender equality,” said an anonymous fan. “You know, like in the poll, not in real life.”

[Twig]

Esports Express is fantastic. The Onion of gaming.

[tegan]

Remember that one big launch LAN party held for Battlefield 3 where women weren't allowed to attend because they didn't want anyone to break out the misogynistic slurs?  Glad to see that nobody's learned anything in the three years since then.

[JonCole]

Someone on Twitter was trying to convince me that segregation is good because women are too intimidated to go to coed competitions generally dominated by men and having it segregated gives them a safe space to get accustomed to competing.

 

I guess some time after becoming accustomed he would deem it that women are prepared to enter the big intimidating world of manly, real competition.

[juv3nal]

I'd also like to point out that the GB crew is telling the people who are being assholes to the women speaking out to fuck off.

 

Which is good for what it is, but they don't control twitter (nor should they be expected to). What they need to do is take a harder line on their own forums and start banning people, because last I looked there's still some pretty gross stuff there.

[Bjorn]

Which is good for what it is, but they don't control twitter (nor should they be expected to). What they need to do is take a harder line on their own forums and start banning people, because last I looked there's still some pretty gross stuff there.

 

Yeah, their reaction on Twitter has been rolling around in the back of my head.  I'm hesitant to really give them any credit for it, because it is literally the least amount of work they could do to show that they are decent human beings.  It's like giving credit to men for not raping women.  Oh good, you took 5 seconds to tweet about people being shitty.  Here's your golf clap.  Yes, it's good that they did it, but that doesn't mean that it has real value as an action. 

 

I'd be a lot more impressed if they actually talked about this openly (which they might yet do, the criticism is really recent).  I'm catching up on the last few weeks of On The Media, and just hit a segment where they are discussing the cancellation of Tell Me More, the "blackest show on NPR" (their words, not mine).  They bring on one of the vocal critics of the decision, an NPR executive, and then spend awhile talking about what this means for minority voices at NPR, the reasons behind the decision, and what is going to happen going forward. I'm always impressed when a media outlet is willing to cover their own controversy by giving a voice and space to their critics to come on and speak on their platform about what has been happening. 

 

I don't honestly listen/read GB enough to know if this is a likely outcome, but it's certainly one that I would like to see. 

[SecretAsianMan]

GB has been trying to moderate their own forums too.  But it's hard to fight against such a huge number of people with a limited staff.  And I didn't link the previous tweets to absolve them of guilt or to say "hey, lay off of Giant Bomb, look at all the good stuff they're doing!"  Like Bjorn said, tweets are a quick easy thing to do which also made them a quick, easy post.  I do expect someone to have something to say soon, most likely Patrick because he addresses concerns like this a lot and is especially vocal about the subject of women in gaming.

[coaxmetal]

Many have probably already seen this, but Jeff posted something on the site in response to this: http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-07-02-2014/1100-4948/

 

 

Sounds like as a result of this, GB is going to start taking rules/moderation more seriously on their forums

[SecretAsianMan]

Was just about to post that link myself.

 

I believe them when they said they tried to moderate their community before, but I'm glad they recognize an increased need for it.  I'd still like to see a response to the actual criticism that kicked all this off, but I kind of doubt that's going to happen.

[coaxmetal]

Agreed. I have mixed thoughts on the criticism leveled against them, but would like to see them (likely Jeff, again) respond. They may still, it is important to get the community under control.

[Gormongous]

Agreed. I have mixed thoughts on the criticism leveled against them, but would like to see them (likely Jeff, again) respond.

 

I think everyone here has agreed that it's a conversation worth having, whether or not they agree with all the minutiae of it. I don't know how much freedom the members of Giant bomb have to talk about their hiring decisions, but I would like their voices in that conversation, too.

 

It's only the people who insist that the conversation shouldn't be had that are ridiculous at best and disgusting at worst. I'm always reminded of how Karl Popper wrote that tolerance must not tolerate intolerance to be truly tolerant.

[JonCole]

So, it seems the anger re: male-only IeSF tournaments has paid off to some extent - http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/03/iesf-removes-male-only-restriction-from-its-e-sports-tournaments/

 

"On 2nd of July, 2014, the IeSF’s policy about gender division, which separates the female division and the male division, has been brought into question. The IeSF has listened to the gaming community and has carefully considered their opinions. Upon hearing these concerns, the IeSF convoked an emergency session of the IeSF Board to respond.

 

"As a result, IeSF shall have two event categories: 'Open for All' events and events that are reserved for women. The events which were initially set aside as the male division will now be open to all genders, and the events which were initially set as the female division will remain as they were.

 

So, for some reason there are still female-only categories but now all games are open to everyone:

• Open for All: Dota 2, Starcraft 2, Ultra Street Fighter 4, Hearthstone, Tekken Tag Tournament 2
• Female Competition: Starcraft 2, Tekken Tag Tournament 2

I hope what this means is that for women who are in fact intimidated by testosterone-fueled men they have a safe space to compete among each other, but otherwise they're welcome to play together. What I fear this means is that having a female-only category means that there will be a cultural pressure to self-segregate and not participate in the real deal.

 

I told my wife that Tekken was originally female-only, and as a fan of Tekken she was super pissed. That was easily one of the dumbest aspects of this whole thing, having different games exclusive to different genders.

 

Re: Giant Bomb's Letter from the Editor, this was a nice step in the right direction but it really did nothing to actively the people who are continuing to be attacked. There are still plenty of comments on that post that say that Samantha Allen posted this as click-bait, was wrongly calling GB guys bigoted assholes, and otherwise misrepresenting her tone and message. By not addressing the issue itself, I still feel that GB is implicitly encouraging these people to feel like diversity is not particularly important to the website.

[SecretAsianMan]

This has nothing to do with the current discussion, but here's today's SMBC comic