Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[Mentalgongfu]

Thank you so much @Jake and @Chris for the podcast all season long, and specifically for pointing out in the finale recap that we already knew how Annie was. I don't know if your cribbed from my comments here or just got there on your own, but I am taking credit in my own mind. Regardless, it was so gratifying to hear someone else say it. 

 

I listened to a lot of TP content all over the place as The Return went on, but you guys were my favorite at the start and have remained so. Even when you have a "removing his wound" moment from time to time, you are still far above the rest of the pack. I didn't always agree with your take, but I never found myself yelling at your podcast, unlike many of the others I have checked out. Since I only found this place after The Return started, now I have to go back and listen to the original Rewatch of the first two seasons until you get around to doing an actual rewatch of Season 3.

[BonusWavePilot]

@plasticflesh - some great thoughts in the Medium article you posted.  I think some of it is purely speculative without much to back it up (which is inevitable in these kinds of theories), but definitely food for thought.  I think I am least convinced by the idea of Laura acting as a 'bomb' by overloading Judy or other lodge spirits with garmonbozia.  I don't think we've really seen or heard anything to the effect that garmonbozia is dangerous to the lodge spirits who are intent on gathering it.  (Although Laura's origin as 'good' orb does seem to indicate that she is dangerous or at least opposed to the 'evil' orb types like Bob)

 

I thought the idea of Coop & Diane's sex scene as conducting a ritual was quite resonant though - it could explain the pre-ordained feeling to Coop/Richard's instructions.  (And possibly give some further motivation to rape-happy Badcoop other than just being an evil sort, particularly in the case of Diane, if he was also attempting to enact a ritual).  I believe it possibly ties into some stuff from the Dossier about sex-magic too, but I have not read it.  Then again, if we assume that Diane has split from Coop at the point where she sees herself outside the hotel, then the scene might just be Linda coming to terms with the fact that Richard is acting super-weirdly.

 

I liked the concept of the alternate reality (or what the Medium article called 'The Cage') as being our real world, and having the actual owner of the location at which the Palmer House is filmed answer the door seems to reinforce this, but I'm not so sure about it having been constructed as a cage for Judy... 

 

The idea of the alternate reality being our own world in combination with the notion that Judy is the transliterated 交代 Jiāo Dài, or 'explanation' points to an interesting take where explanation of the show's mysteries is itself the worst possible evil, in which case I suppose Goodcoop as investigator seeking answers stands in for the audience, and oversteps into dangerous territory when he actually makes it into the real world...  Not sure exactly what that would parallel...  Maybe trying to use ideas about the motivation/psychology of the author to analyse events of the show?

[plasticflesh]

@BonusWavePilot that is a fair assessment on that article making too many assumptions. I agree on the Jiao Dai explanation being the ultimate evil to thesis of the show.

 

I spoke with a friend today and he had a simpler and less paranormal theory about the ending. That it was the same world, but just one where Laura Palmer creates a new name for herself as Carrie Paige. But is still re-enacting trauma because Cooper intervened before the murder, but after the years of trauma.

 

I guess if they really wanted it to be real life, RR Diner would be Twede's Cafe. Although Twede's does close at like 4pm, so it does track that it'd be closed at the time they passed by. (edit, it's 8am to 8pm, but I visited on Labor Day so it closed at 4pm)

 

[Captain Fram]

What an awesome ride this has been. I watched the entire first and second season of Twin Peaks over a two-week period, listening to Rewatch episodes along the way. I then watched FWWM (which traumatised me) and dove straight into The Return.

 

I've loved every minute of this podcast and the discussion it's generated; Twin Peaks is now sitting atop my all time favourite TV shows. Thanks to Chris and Jake for the thoughtful discussions and to everyone here for being generally awesome. Can't wait for the wrap-up episode

[BonusWavePilot]

@plasticflesh Hmm, an interesting possibility...  So if your friend is correct, Laura just called herself Carrie after escaping from Twin Peaks and its history of abuse?  In this case, how is her lack of knowledge of the family home accounted for?  I suppose she could just have repressed the memory of the place, but I would have expected her to be less co-operative with Coop's suggestion they travel back there if that were so, even if it does get her away from whatever happened with that body in her house.

Does this explanation tie into the weirdness around Coop and Diane 'crossing over' somehow?  I guess it could be the different reality Coop created by rescuing Laura beginning there, but Laura's body disappearing in the flashback would seem to indicate that Twin Peaks itself was affected too. 

 

On another note, apropos of nothing in particular, I really liked the randomness of some of the vortex locations.  The ones at Jackrabbit's palace or above the convenience store at least seem portentous, but the vortex that Gordon investigates, and the location of the 'crossover' point are both in such unremarkable places that it seems plausible they could have been there for years without anyone noticing.

[plasticflesh]

@BonusWavePilot I guess in that reading, for Carrie not responding to Laura's existence would be explained by repression. It does make it strange that Carrie would be so eager to hop on board with the alleged FBI man to escape the situation in her apartment. The Diane and Coop crossing over into Richard and Linda does just beg a super natural read.

 

The vortex that Gordon investigates seems to be in the front yard of the house of Carrie Page... even though that house is in Odessa Texas and not South Dakota.  The 430 miles location of the cross over point is very visually similar to the strip of highway that Mr C flips his car over on, and that Cooper looks onto from the red room. The vortex point that has only one use that I can see of is the one that immolates Richard Horne. But that could potentially be the way that Jerry Horne got to Wyoming, naked.

[BonusWavePilot]

@plasticflesh Ah yes, I had forgotten about Mr C's car flip being in a similar spot.  (Perhaps given more weight by RichCoop driving the same model of old car as Badcoop for his first evening crossed over.)

 

...and I had completely missed that Carrie's was the same house!

 

It would seem a bit foolhardy of Jerry to go climbing on that rock after he saw Richard getting toasted up there, although he did attribute the death to his binoculars, so possibly he wouldn't have connected it with the location.  In this case, I suppose Richard's grisly end (presumably meant for Badcoop) was some kind of once-off trap, rather than a permanent change to a vortex at that spot.

[Nappi]

First of all, thank you Chris and Jake for the podcast! It has helped me appreciate and "understand" Twin Peaks better. I have also enjoyed the forum discussion tremendously. 

 

I agree that whether one liked The Return or not (for what it is worth, I liked it), this was a remarkable piece of television. Before the new season aired, I felt that the only thing we could be certain about was that nothing would be certain, but even so, the season managed to take me completely by surprise in so many ways.

 

I'm still processing what the last couple of episodes mean (by themselves and for Twin Peaks, in general), but I think that on an emotional level, at least, they were very successful. Although, the "What year is this?" line may be a bit meaningless considering how much has changed in Cooper's existence already, that delivery combined with not-Laura's scream made my spine tingle. What a frightening place to leave the series.

[dartmonkey]

The Judy/Jiāo Dài relation to 'explanation' recontextualises that frustrating bit earlier in the series when Hawk was showing Truman his map and said "You don't want to know what that is."

 

"Err..., actually I really do!"

"No you don't."

"..............perhaps you're right. Coffee?"

[Mentalgongfu]

3 hours ago, dartmonkey said:

The Judy/Jiāo Dài relation to 'explanation' recontextualises that frustrating bit earlier in the series when Hawk was showing Truman his map and said "You don't want to know what that is."

 

"Err..., actually I really do!"

"No you don't."

"..............perhaps you're right. Coffee?"

 

When I let myself think about it, the lack of resolution on Hawk's map and the statement you quote, is extremely frustrating, especially given the Log Lady's nearly last words to him about "the one under the moon on Blue Pine mountain." We never see anything even remotely relating to this, unless it is when they find Naido, and that is in daylight, not under the moon, so I don't think it makes sense, unless that too is a metaphor.

 

...

 

It does occur to me, @Jake and @Chris, given the discussion about Bob's "catch phrase," it can take on new meanings. I had always thought it was "One chance out," but it seems "one chants out" is more likely to be the original intention. I haven't looked for specific script punctuation, which could alter the whole slightly, but as it is, that gives us:

 

 Through the darkness of future past

The magician longs to see

One chants out between two worlds

Fire walk with me

 

Given that we have the line, and the episode title, "Laura is The One," and we have "chants" as a verb,

is Laura the One who chants out between two worlds?

As in she is somehow the bridge between the Dale Cooper and Dougie Coop we know, and the "Richard" who meets "Carrie Page" in the sudden turn of the re_Turn.

The idea of Laura as the connecting piece seems kind of obvious, since that is the only consistency in the end of the season, but I had never connected it with Bob's poem before.

Is she the one asking/ telling us to Fire Walk with her?

 

I'm not one for big, elaborate theories, just connections. But when I thought of the poem in terms of "chants" instead of "chance," Laura as The One immediately jumped out at me. For what it's worth. One chants out between two worlds. Laura Palmer chants out between two worlds. Carrie Page chants out between two worlds. Cooper travels from one world to another, changing name yet still finding her, through Judy's diner, because the one still chants out between the two worlds.

 

Don't know if this idea holds to close scrutiny, but anyhow, that's my thought of the day,

[SuperBiasedMan]

18 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

Fire Walk with her

 

Just a quick aside, I always thought of that as a line imploring fire itself to walk with the speaker, not for somebody else to fire walk with them. It's curious to realise ambiguities like this that my brain wholly glossed over.

[Mentalgongfu]

1 minute ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

 

Just a quick aside, I always thought of that as a line imploring fire itself to walk with the speaker, not for somebody else to fire walk with them. It's curious to realise ambiguities like this that my brain wholly glossed over.

 

I assume the ambiguity must be part of why Lynch loves it. It can be read as "Fire, walk with me," and/or "Fire-walk, with me."

[Urthman]

 

It could even be

 

One chants out between two worlds, "Fire!" 

Walk with me.

 

(line breaks changed for emphasis; there are plenty of poems where the first word of a line is the last word of the previous sentence) 

[Jake]

1 hour ago, Urthman said:

One chants out between two worlds, "Fire!" 

Walk with me.

 

Haha or, by Hawk's measure, that could be equivalent to someone chanting "electricity."

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Urthman said:

 

It could even be

 

One chants out between two worlds, "Fire!" 

Walk with me.

 

(line breaks changed for emphasis; there are plenty of poems where the first word of a line is the last word of the previous sentence) 

 

This is always kind of how I heard it.

[bowisneski]

I just wanted to pop in with a big thanks for @Jake and @Chris for being awesome and making what I consider the best accompaniment podcast for the show.

 

As well as share a couple passages from a re-read of the Autobiography of Dale Cooper that felt poignant to me at the end of this journey

 

 

 

You can read the whole thing here http://leesmillard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/The-Autobiography-of-F.B.I.-Special-Agent-Dale-Cooper.pdf

[purps]

I feel like I have a decent handle on the ending now that I've thought about it for awhile. I'm like 70-80% of the way there. Here's my interpretation as of now:

Cooper asks Jefferies to send him back in time to the night Laura dies as that was the night that started all of this. He is successful (we see her body disappear) but then Judy angrily intervenes, through Sarah Palmer.

 

I 100% subscribe to the theory that Sarah is host to Judy through the frogmoth. Visually the scene where she opens her face both looks similar to the moth creature and the creature in the box (who I also believe is Judy). Also I rewatched a clip of episode 8 and noticed something I completely forgot about. After the frogmoth goes in the girl's mouth, the woodsman stops his broadcast and walks outside and disappears into the darkness. As he does that there is a faint sound effect of a horse neighing. The white horse is seen twice in the history of the show, both times by Sarah Palmer. The exact meaning of the horse I'm not completely decided on, but no doubt about it that it's linked heavily to Sarah. The other big clue to this is in the final episode after Bad Coop goes through the portal and gets caught in that cage in the White Lodge/Movie Theater/Whatever the Giant changes the destination from the Palmer house to the Sheriff's station. Bad Coop was looking for the Palmer house. In episode 1, Bad Coop shows the image of the black circle with antenna looking things (which we also see on Hawk's map) and says that is what he is looking for. As many people pointed out, the figure that vomits up BOB and the eggs has similar antenna to that image. All of these things are Judy. Bad Coop was looking for Judy at Sarah Palmer's house. Not totally sure on why, maybe to destroy her and take her place? Or just never have to go back to the Lodge? Not clear. 

 

Anyway, we see Cooper leading Laura away from her murder and the events starting to undo themselves, when suddenly she screams and disappears. We then cut to the scene of Sarah smashing the picture frame of Laura. Judy is seeing what Cooper is doing and sending her away to another world where she becomes Carrie Page. The Fireman gives Cooper the information to go find her (first scene of episode 1) and him and Diane drive the 430 miles and enter the other world. The other world is under Judy's control. We see the diner named Judy's. The people in it are horrible and evil (truckers harassing the waitress, Carrie Page's horrible life complete with a dead body in her living room). And the existence of the Chalfonts/Tremonds suggest this is part of or related to the lodge. I think it's some sort of hell or prison maybe? 

 

The biggest thing I am unclear on, is Diane's role in all of this, and specifically the sex scene. It's purpose and meaning eludes me completely. Most of the theory from waggish.org I don't buy much at all, but the idea of the sex scene being a way to summon Judy ala the black box sex scene is the closest thing to a plausible theory I've heard but I'm not totally sold on it.

 

Some other assorted thoughts: Audrey "waking up" in the Roadhouse, is that white room the same world Carrie, Richard, and Linda are in? We live inside a dream. Audrey woke up from the dream. Also, Jefferies saying "Say hi to Gordon for me, he will remember the unofficial version". This reads to me as seeding for a possible season 4 or movie. Cooper needs to find Gordon in the alt-world. He will remember Twin Peaks. If they were to continue the show, would the show be about Cooper, Laura, and Cole all trying to get back home? Maybe we would see alternate versions of all the Twin Peaks cast playing different characters? Although these might go against the alt-world being part of the lodge or created by Judy.

 

Feel free to poke any holes in this if you see any. Seems pretty solid to me. I think I'll have an even better handle once I rewatch the whole show from front to back.

 

 

[kuddles]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:40 PM, Jake said:

I just read this theory that DOES attempt to connect every single thing together. It doesn't ring emotionally true to me, to what I got out of the season, but it was still an interesting read: http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

I love stuff like this that happens after only Lynch films or a small selection of movies and TV shows, many of which seem at least partially inspired by Lynch.  Even though I never agree with everything being posited. (I'm sorry, the "last two episodes should be played in sync" theory holds no water for me. It feels way too close to stuff like The Dark Side of the Moon mixed with The Wizard of Oz or the theories espoused in Room 237, where it feels like coincidences and confirmation bias is making up for a lot.) Of course, no interpretation is ever going to be 100% satisfying, because there are always things that you have to "feel out". Lynch himself has admitted this in interviews.

 

I think that Waggish theory is really interesting and gives me more to think about - in particular, the idea that RR2GO does not exist in the "new" Twin Peaks because neither Dale nor Laura would know it should be there.

 

But I agree with Jake in that it doesn't "ring emotionally true". For all of Lynch's diversions and playing with expectations (can I just say I loved the scene where we all are forced to wait an agonizingly long time for the lady to leave the room before one sentence of information is exchanged?), he is nothing if not wholly sincere in how he presents things - and this has been true in everything he has created in the past. If something is supposed to be funny, happy or playful, he makes that clear. If something is meant to be dark and foreboding, he also makes that clear. That's why he couldn't even provide us with that final battle in Episode 17 without letting us know "something" was wrong about it. Nothing about the last few minutes of The Return gave off the impression we were supposed to feel Cooper succeeded in his mission.

 

Of course, maybe that means everything in that theory is correct except the absolute ending.

[WickedCestus]

I have a feeling that there is something to the fact that Laura tells Coop "I'll see you again in 25 years", and then Coop ends the series by asking "What year is it?" I don't know if this has been brought up before, since this is the only Twin Peaks-related forum I frequent, but the fact that it cuts to Laura whispering in Coop's ear at the end definitely evokes that line from the original series.

 

I don't really like to get too concrete, but I do think that this association gels with the idea that Coop was attempting to follow the directions/clues that have been provided to him in the Red Room/White Lodge throughout the series, and has failed, either because he has followed them incorrectly, or maybe conversely because he has adhered to them too strictly. This plays into the idea suggested in the pod about Cooper's intuitiveness being a double-edged sword. Often, he acts without regard for the feelings of other people, just because of his own visions and whims. It seems to me that his downfall at the end is strongly related to this flaw. 

 

I think it's interesting to look at his story in the show as an in-depth, yet abstract look into his character. We spend so little time with him acting as himself, but I think we actually learn more about Dale Cooper's psyche than we did in the original series. Dougie explores the positive, almost transcendent version of him, where he has internalized the world to such an extent that he acts effortlessly, seemingly unknowingly, in ways that produce positive results. Then, there's Mr. C, who uses his intuition and strength to forcefully enact change in the world purely out of self-interest. And then there is the Coop who appears at the very beginning and end, who seems to follow his intuition so closely and literally that it leads him to some sort of cosmic despair. I don't think the ending is necessarily an indictment of Coop as a whole; each version of Coop is just an example of the good or bad that can result from this one aspect of his character. It all fits together to me in a way that is so ethereal and abstract that it's hard for me to put it into words, but this is my best attempt. 

 

 

[Persistence of 3]

An observation about Cooper. In the original series as well as FWWM when we see him in his black suit he's always wearing his FBI lapel pin. This isn't always so in the Return. In fact, the only time he wears his lapel pin are during the Lodge scenes prior to his exit through the #3 socket. So it wasn't just his shoes that didn't pass through to the other side. As an imperative of the narrative this makes good sense since Jade, then the casino operators and everyone else down the line would have noticed and reacted accordingly. Hookers and gambling operations would certainly take exception to a federal agent. So it goes to pass, through the remainder of the story Cooper no longer wears his lapel pin. Yet, watch part one again. When we see Cooper recieving the Giant/Fireman's clues, Cooper isn't wearing the pin. I think this pretty much establishes how much the story is being told out of sequence. The Cooper getting these clues is the Cooper from the 'end' of the story.

[BonusWavePilot]

1 hour ago, Persistence of 3 said:

An observation about Cooper. In the original series as well as FWWM when we see him in his black suit he's always wearing his FBI lapel pin. This isn't always so in the Return. In fact, the only time he wears his lapel pin are during the Lodge scenes prior to his exit through the #3 socket. So it wasn't just his shoes that didn't pass through to the other side. As an imperative of the narrative this makes good sense since Jade, then the casino operators and everyone else down the line would have noticed and reacted accordingly. Hookers and gambling operations would certainly take exception to a federal agent. So it goes to pass, through the remainder of the story Cooper no longer wears his lapel pin. Yet, watch part one again. When we see Cooper recieving the Giant/Fireman's clues, Cooper isn't wearing the pin. I think this pretty much establishes how much the story is being told out of sequence. The Cooper getting these clues is the Cooper from the 'end' of the story.

Woah, good catch!

 

It's funny how the search for clues in a show like this where small details might be relevant, and where the creators are unlikely to ever spell everything out makes the stakes of any continuity problems higher.  This FBI pin theory seems to me to be a good example of that: another might be the guy shouting for Billy at the diner, followed by a suddenly different crowd of extras in the diner.  In most other shows you would just assume a continuity glitch, but here it may actually be significant.  This is further complicated by Lynch's methods meaning that it might start as a mistake and then get adopted if he likes it.

[kuddles]

48 minutes ago, BonusWavePilot said:

It's funny how the search for clues in a show like this where small details might be relevant, and where the creators are unlikely to ever spell everything out makes the stakes of any continuity problems higher.  

Haha, I was literally thinking the same thing. And it's especially hard with someone like Lynch who loves using symbolism. Makes you wonder if theories of his past movies are based on "evidence" that actually was just a forgetful accident. Just another wrinkle in being left to interpret something that will always have gaps, and nobody to tell you which parts of your ideas are right and which are off-base. Not much difference from finding anything of significance in something the director planned as a pointless aside, I suppose. Although we're talking about a series where a lame bit about Lucy's confusion over cell phones led to the demise of an antagonist so it's hard to think that anything is meant to be a meaningless aside.

 

That said, I think the lapel pin thing works out. They even repeat a bit of the red room scene from Episode 1 in the end, and that combined with the "is it future or is it past" line suggests that maybe that's when that discussion took place.

 

[Dingobloo]

The theories related to Gordon Cole and Albert talking mostly in code throughout the season like the one detailed at the start of Fire Walk with Me, including all the mis-heard words and the excruciatingly long scene with the lady in red (and Monica Bellucci) have me super excited about watching over scenes again.

 

I think i'm still bummed out about the Bob fight scene, but the way the story has been reframed at least have me excited that more of stuff in the middle is important that it first appears. 

 

 

[Persistence of 3]

It can be problematic presenting a case for the lapel pin given that we're talking about a franchise which capitalized on a production error to create Killer Bob. Mr Lynch has given us precident after all.

 

That said, I think this is different. At some point in their discussions Lynch and Frost had to have realized they couldn't tell the story they wished to tell unless Cooper's lapel pin disappears. So they dispensed with it at the most convenient time. I'd go so far as to suggest the business with his shoes left behind —despite the ubiquitous talk of shoes in the original run— was a big misdirect. Look there not here. Later, Dougie/Coop seems to understand perfectly well that his pin is missing and appears to be telling us that each time he reaches for a lawman's badge.

 

Once it was established that there would have to be scences establishing the pin and scenes without then it would fall to the costume department to monitor where they were in the story and how to depict Cooper. Yes, continuity errors happen. This seems like something intentional, like leaving the bat symbol off of Batman's cosutme. It's kinda conspicious when you think about it.

 

Of course one could wonder whether or not the opening black and white scene with Cooper and the Giant was scripted for the opening or whether it was something that was found later in the edititng room.

[MrHoatzin]

The pin appears as bad Coop's hair tie, definitely near the end, but might be in throughout and we somehow missed it. The camera even lingers on it.