Episode 367: Bite-sized Strategy

[Rob Zacny]

Three Moves Ahead 367:

Bite-sized Strategy

Rob, David Heron, and Troy "It's dignity, gah - don't you even know dignity when you see it?" Goodfellow get together to talk about strategy games that don't take 100 hours to play. Whether you're burned out on the sprawling grand strategy games that take up more time than most community college degrees or you just don't have enough time left in the day after pursuing your community college degree, shorter games can be better. But why aren't there a lot of compact, quick-to-play strategy games? Why does the general gaming public hate the ones that do exist? Our panel tries to crack the case of the easily digestible strategy game and ultimately leaves slightly depressed.

Kingdom, Offworld Trading Company, Invisible Inc., Valkyria Chronicles, Heroes of the Storm, Game of War and stuff, Hearts of Iron IV, Battle of the Bulge, Tharsis, Hero Academy, Hero's Charge, Atlantic Fleet, Heroes of Might and Magic, Horse and Musket, Masters of Orion, Sid Meier's Starships, Atom Zombie Smasher, Flotilla, Civilization V, Unity of Command

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[TokyoDan]

Does anyone here realize that the ability to add links is broken on these forums?

 

I was trying to link to two short game recommendations on Steam but when I use the link tool it gets me in  a situation where I can't get rid of the dialog and have to reload to page to get out of it.

 

Anyway the games are Creeper World 3: Arc Eternal (and older game) and Concealed Intent (A very new space strategy game).

 

Creeper World 1 and 2 are both great games but are ActionScript/Flash games.

[Moose23]

Creeper World 3 was awesome. There's also Particle Fleet (made by the same guy) coming out next month: http://store.steampowered.com/app/422900/

[TokyoDan]

@Moose23 Thanks for that post about Particle Fleet. I'll be getting that. By the way. How'd you get that hyperlink in there? I can seem to post any URLs here. When I click on the little chain link icon up pops a very detailed dialog which I can seem to get rid of unless I refresh this page and start all over.

[sclpls]

I think it is pretty hard to design games where you have a relatively symmetrical AI opponent that isn't easily gamed within a short time frame. One thing Flotilla and AZS have going for them is that they can be challenging without a particularly sophisticated AI. But the type of design that exists in a lot of strategy games probably isn't appropriate in something with a more contained scope. The reason board games work is because you are playing against people, but in my experience at least I find playing against the AI for board game ports to be not particularly interesting, and I've usually exhausted that experience after about 3 playthroughs.

 

But I find roguelikes to be very successful when they are smaller in scope. And again, roguelikes don't have particularly challenging AI, but the random configuration of opponents can keep things interesting. So I think this space could maybe be explored successfully with some sort of roguelike-strategy hybrid.

[cornchip]

What is the game shown in the header image?

[sclpls]

That's Atom Zombie Smasher by Blendo Games.

[SamS]

Once you get over the hump of learning the game, I find big, complex games like EU4 or RimWorld are actually perfect for playing in small chunks. I think the main reason is that the gameplay in those games is just 'systems management', tweaking something here, changing something there, and watching it tick along. You can watch it tick for one hour or seven hours, it doesn't really make a difference. There is no checkpoint or endgoal you need to reach, its just busywork you immerse yourself in for as long as you want/can. 

[Flynn]

I think you guys wrote off Clash Royale too quickly.  It's a 3 minute Lords Management/RTS game.  Perfect little bite sized strategy. The f2p stuff never prevents you from playing a match.  Matches are real time and PvP.  

 

And most importantly, my personal experience is that there's absolutely no impulse to ever consider paying any money for it because it would only raise the equilibrium point I hit on the ladder.  Unlike a game like Hearthstone where I can make perfect copies of pro decks if I just put in a little more money, I will never max out my Clash Royale cards since it would take something like $20,000 dollars so there's no reason to even try.  Paying money just means you hit an equilibrium point on the ladder slightly higher.  I strongly dislike any f2p game that has me constantly wondering when and if I should put money in so this works out surprisingly great.  

 

Now Clash of Clans and Mobile Strike and those others are dreck.   

[cornchip]

Enjoyed this discussion.

 

I've mentioned it before, but I'll throw out Flamebreak (http://store.steampowered.com/app/399640/) as a great bite-sized strategy game. Imagine if, in FTL, you had the tools to figure out, with a little luck, optimal routes through each zone and were able to pursue some high-level strategies to beat the game based on your starting ship and crew with more reliability. New players will probably complain that it is a roguelike, but everything in it is extremely fair, and beatable, and most odds you care about can be manipulated in your favor to where most games can go the way you want with enough skill.

 

However, the combat is much more action-tactical, like Binding of Isaac or DOTA. Games take 30-45 minutes and a speedrun takes maybe 10-20 minutes. I have over 100 hours into this game.

 

I completely agree with Dave that idlers are eating up the mobile/casual strategy market. Regarding why, one thing overlooked is that the more intense is a strategic decision, the more time and design is needed to build up to it and wind down from it. That is why most people cannot handle a quick SC2 ladder game between meetings at work, just like they can't squeeze in an intense work task like deciding whether to lay someone off in 15 minutes. Idlers appeal to lazy people and people who like big numbers, but the thing they do really well is provide context and gradual introduction to a few decisions, and then, brilliantly, they require zero wind-down because you just leave them running!

 

And I agree that as long as board game development has lower fixed/upfront costs than Video game development, we'll see more design diversity there. 

 

Troy, I'll get to work on that naval idler game because I want to play it myself.

[Michael]

What is the game shown in the header image?

 

As mentioned, Atom Zombie Smasher. For me, it's the game that as soon as I hear it mentioned, I sigh and go back and reinstall it. Because it's really really good.

[cornchip]

Yes, thanks, sclpls and Michael, for letting me know. I watched some footage and it looks like a lot of fun. Give me more levels with marines and fewer with artillery, though!

[Arathain]

Excellent discussion. I enjoyed it. It's very relevant to my life and my experiences.

 

My own personal game for a quick, satisfying experience is Hearthstone. Short matches, decision rich, card collecting adds a progression element. I don't think I could recommend it to a new player, though. Just too expensive or time consuming to get a half-way decent card collection.

 

For a chunky snack of a game in the RTS mold, I'd like to suggest Infested Planet. It's exciting and tense, with plenty of ebb and flow, and lots of scope for trying out different tactics and experimentation. A game probably won't last longer than 20 minutes or so. 

 

I hear Invisible Inc., but as I've found with it and XCOM it's hard to finish a whole campaign. Sure, you can do a mission in a reasonable space of time, but I might not be able to get back to it for a while, and I quickly lose the momentum I need to keep the campaign rolling. I'd like to throw in Abbey Game's Renowned Explorers. An expedition provides a nice amount of game, and a campaign is 4 or 5 expeditions, so you have a reasonable expectation of playing it through. It's a fantastic, clever game, which helps. 

 

I completely agree with Dave that idlers are eating up the mobile/casual strategy market. Regarding why, one thing overlooked is that the more intense is a strategic decision, the more time and design is needed to build up to it and wind down from it. That is why most people cannot handle a quick SC2 ladder game between meetings at work, just like they can't squeeze in an intense work task like deciding whether to lay someone off in 15 minutes. Idlers appeal to lazy people and people who like big numbers, but the thing they do really well is provide context and gradual introduction to a few decisions, and then, brilliantly, they require zero wind-down because you just leave them running!

 

I think this is very insightful. I think I'm seeing some common elements in games that work, at least for me. Looking at Hearthstone, FTL, Atom Zombie Smasher, Flotilla, Infested Planet and Renowned Explorers:

 

- Medium intensity level- engaging without being exhausting, but requiring thoughtfulness.

 

- Colourful, and pleasant to look at, clear and easy to read.

 

- Use of random elements to provide variety. This one stands out to me. FTL has random encounters and equipment. Atom Zombie Smasher chooses your squads for you. Infested Planet procedurally generates maps and aliens mutate randomly. All the above titles have random elements that go beyond rolling to succeed at a task (like Tharsis). These games can be more engaging when we don't quite know what we're going to encounter, and have to adapt to what we find. Our short play session contains surprise, and our decisions become important. 

 

Any other common features?

[TokyoDan]

How are you guys getting hyperlinks in your posts?

 

When I try to insert a URL I get a complicated dialog that ask for the URL (of course) plus a choice of Anchor Name or Anchor ID (what are those? and under that it says "No actions available in the document) and an email address, message subject, and message body (Why). Then onne this dialog pops up there is no way to git rid of it outside of refreshing this page. Is it my browser? I get the same in IE or Edge.

[Gormongous]

How are you guys getting hyperlinks in your posts?

 

When I try to insert a URL I get a complicated dialog that ask for the URL (of course) plus a choice of Anchor Name or Anchor ID (what are those? and under that it says "No actions available in the document) and an email address, message subject, and message body (Why). Then onne this dialog pops up there is no way to git rid of it outside of refreshing this page. Is it my browser? I get the same in IE or Edge.

 

It looks like you're getting the verbose reply interface? I'm not sure how to switch back and forth, but in Firefox and Chrome there's just a button on the second tier of icons, a chain with a green plus next to it, that you click to get a dialogue box with not that many options besides a blank, cancel, and okay.

[TokyoDan]

It looks like you're getting the verbose reply interface? I'm not sure how to switch back and forth, but in Firefox and Chrome there's just a button on the second tier of icons, a chain with a green plus next to it, that you click to get a dialogue box with not that many options besides a blank, cancel, and okay.

That is the same icon that brings up that verbose reply interface. I can't even get the Quote functions to work on IE and Edge on Windows. But now I'm posting this from Safari on my Mac Mini and everything seems to work.

 

Here is one of the games I tied to link to: Concealed Intent. 

[Hitoshura]

Board game wise, there are quite a few in depth strategy & tactics games that are playable in less than 30 minutes and are very replayable. They tend to be card games as it's easy to make them simple rule wise but with each card breaks the rule in some interesting way (think Magic the Gathering) and the random order of the cards make the game different each time, not unlike a roguelike.

 

Race for The Galaxy

 

It's a well known game but often mistaken as a filler with a "multiplayer solitaire" syndrome. Sure, the game can be played very fast: as soon as a player put down 11 cards it's over. Since there's quite some depth in the game related to card synergies, new player tend to forget that they play with other players whence the "multiplayer solitaire" feel. However, once players get experienced, it's extremely important to know what your opponent is up to as you will piggy back on his/her actions. The more experienced the players become, the more important this gets.

 

The most unique aspect of the game is that in a turn, you have 5 steps but they don't always trigger: it's the players that decides secretly what will happen. The selected steps will be carried by everyone with a small bonus to the player who called it so you need to make sure you stand to benefit most from the action you choose and you have an appropriate response to what you expect your opponent will call. It's similar to Puerto Rico, another well regarded and popular game...but much longer to play.

 

Innovation

 

This one is a lot less well known. Think Civilization but only the technology mini game. This game is hard to describe as it's fairly innovative in many areas and is a must play for game designers. I'm not going to attempt to describe it, a video is going to be more successful here:

 

 

As the review above mention, the first few games are going to be very chaotic but as players get more experienced, it becomes a lot more strategic.

 

Impulse

 

From the same designer as Innovation, this is an attempt to do a full space 4X game in 30 minutes. Yes, this sounds like an absurd claim but it actually succeed (I think, very subjective)! Again, like Innovation, I'm not going to describe it as it's a game full of innovative ideas and a video is going to be more helpful I think:

 

 

I got 100+ games of Race, 50+ games of Innovation and I can't recommend them enough. Impulse I didn't play much yet as because of the complexity, it's harder to find players for that.

[Enidigm]

Polytopia is a bite-sized mobile game that distills Civ style gameplay into a 30 turn romp.  It has randomized maps, tech trees, village placement, different unit types and unique civ based tile sets and unit graphics.  It goes a long way to show how most 4X games are really just long form wastes of time.  Mobile only though.

 

Dungeon of the Endless is of course exactly what the guys were asking about; a tower defense, round based, hero management, rogue-like dungeon crawler that is very tactical and complex at the higher difficulty levels.  Works great on the iPad as well as on lower end laptops.

[Marchettus]

"I think you guys wrote off Clash Royale too quickly.  It's a 3 minute Lords Management/RTS game.  Perfect little bite sized strategy. The f2p stuff never prevents you from playing a match.  Matches are real time and PvP."

 

<- this 100x.  I stopped playing hearthstone because I could get a Clash Royale game or two in at work.  It really is the perfect mobile pop and play game.  While you do have to grind cards and make requests that takes strategy as well.  It has an active meta and sometimes I'll play it instead of a battle in Total War:Warhammer because I just need the winning or losing fix.

[HankThunderknife]

Really enjoyed this 'cast, thanks fellas!

The one game that sprang to mind for me was Kiwi-made RTS Element, which is billed as "a realtime strategy space game for people who don't have time to play realtime strategy space games".

It's in Early Access, but the (very) few people who have jammed it seemed to like it. Said RPS: “Rome was built, enjoyed, and decimated in 0.002 of a day. It was great and, even as I was wiped off the face of my earth, it looked lovely.”

I'm not the dev, just an NZ game journo shamelessly pimping his fellow countryman's game. (No, we don't know each other. Yes, we have the Internet in New Zealand. No you cannot walk from one side of NZ to the other in 30 minutes.)

Check it out if you have a few minutes!

[riadsala]

I pretty much only ever play one mission of XCOM2 at a time. Fits in well over lunch

[osmosisch]

<- this 100x.  I stopped playing hearthstone because I could get a Clash Royale game or two in at work.  It really is the perfect mobile pop and play game.  While you do have to grind cards and make requests that takes strategy as well.  It has an active meta and sometimes I'll play it instead of a battle in Total War:Warhammer because I just need the winning or losing fix.

I really got into Clash Royale for a bit but it was too bad for my blood pressure. Something about it made me rage like no other game ever has, and I've played LoMas.

[Mezmorki]

Great episode.  As a boardgame designer and player of 4X video games, I desperately want to see the intersection of these two things come together.

 

I've been wondering for a while now we don't see more games "designed as boardgames" but with a slightly larger scope and with all the processing (and graphical wizardry) handled by the computer.  Seems like a lot of potential in that realm that is untapped.  And I wonder if the audience to try and pitch such games to are not the video gamers, but instead the board gamers.  

 

Someone mentioned the Battle for Polytopia (previously named SuperTribes) as a great example of distilling an entire 4X game down to almost the barest level and constraining the play to 30 turns.  I'd love to see more games along that line.  If Polytopia plays in 20-30 minutes, what would a game that was a just a little bit more complex, that plays in 60-90 minutes, look like?  I'd like to see it.

 

Last, something that wasn't mentioned at all are browser games - I'm thinking of Neptune's Pride but also even more so UltraCorps (a long running Steve Jackson 4X game). Some browser games (newer ones mainly) fall into the idle games / clicker territory, but many do not (like NP and UltraCorps).  UltraCorp is a fantastically deep and engaging game - but turns proceed at one turn / day (typically).  It might take 15 or 30 minutes to get your turn all sorted out ... but then you're off until the next day.

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

I know I am late to comment on the topic, but since I have started following this podcast (a year or two ago?) I kept wondering if a old favorite of mine would pop up, but it never has.  If they remembered it bite-sized gaming would have been a place to put it, so probably not.

 

The game is Slay and is old, dating back to early windows (there are also iOS and Android ports now).  I have come back to it year after year because it is an exceptionally light game to play against the computer--I think there is multiplayer on the Windows client but I haven't ever tried it.

 

The game is dirt simple, but something about the mechanics of it are so fundamentally sound that I could play hours of it at a stretch.  It's territory control and resource management; you can't invade any hex if an equal or greater force (of the owning player) is adjacent to it.  You combine pawns to increase their strength, but doing so increases the maintenance costs.  If a territory falls below zero cash on hand, all its pawns die.  First level pawns can only capture unopposed, but to maintain a second-level pawn you need at least six squares (which you captured and held with first-level pawns) and can't leave yourself exposed.

 

I love it and would be interested in hearing it talked about.

[cornchip]

I like Slay.

 

Mother of all Battles is another small strategy game of his I liked. Although some of the large maps took hours to complete, the small ones with larger land masses could be done in a short break. It didn't have a good production information management interface, so after the climactic struggle to establish yourself, you'd tend to check out and mass-produce paratroopers and bombers to keep things simple.

 

Critical Mass is another of his I liked. It was a simultaneous-turn-based space combat game (with customizable ships, Rob!) It also had a sort of "campaign mode" where you built up your fleet over time, but it didn't have much challenge once you got over an early hump. Also, the scenarios didn't vary nearly enough. Fun, though. I think it is an ancestor of Flotilla and the board game Galaxy Truckers.