Idle Thumbs 223: Troll Clone Today

[Henroid]

Oh I didn't realized that Nick went back to the DotA 2 thing, now I heard what he said. And I can't say I agree.

 

Sports broadcasters don't explain the rules of the sports to people. They don't explain the lingo. They are a measure of how important something is as it is happening through their tone. And in the downtime of action, they can provide analysis of what happened and why, but they're still not required to explain the rules. The only time that comes close to happening is when, for example, a team challenges a ref's ruling on a play in the NFL.

 

In DotA 2, it's pretty easy to tell what's happening as you watch without having to know the terms. "These guys died, these guys lived." There's actually very few terms that are required to understand the general flow of any given match.

 

- "Laning phase," the start of the match when people are getting a critical edge in leveling / ability choices

- "Push," which is when a team is going to assault a specific part of the enemy's base.

- "Buyback," which is when someone who just died can immediately come back to life at the risk of gold and sitting on the sideline

- "Farm," which is when someone is just killing shit to get stronger

 

I'm missing a couple I'm sure but anything else is superfluous, not required to understand anything. You're not required to know what BKB, Raze, Eul's, or any of that means. You can follow the flow just fine. But if you're the kind of person that just has to understand every detail of why something happened, you're gonna have to "learn the rules" of the sport on your own time. The commentators are not there to do it for you, that's not their job.

 

The neat thing about DotA 2 is that it has a built in library you can access and still hear commentary going. Item info, lord info, it's all there. "Why is Laguna Blade important?" you may ask yourself. Open the book on Lina, and you'll see that it's huge damage, huge mana cost, and long cooldown. It's not a thing done lightly.

 

The bottom line is how much of a fan of a sport are you? Because the more you want to be one, the more homework you should do on the sport. If you're not wanting to make that investment, you're actually just not that into it. Which is fine!

[Socialized Medicine]

Great robot news this episode.  It's a highlight of the show for me, and I have to say the same for the Fallout Shelter stuff.  Exceptionally entertaining, and one of the few things I look forward to during the week.

 

Thanks!

[pkirkner]

Sports broadcasters don't explain the rules of the sports to people. They don't explain the lingo. They are a measure of how important something is as it is happening through their tone. And in the downtime of action, they can provide analysis of what happened and why, but they're still not required to explain the rules. The only time that comes close to happening is when, for example, a team challenges a ref's ruling on a play in the NFL..

Sure they do. The play-by-play announcer tells you what's happening and the color commentator explains the subtleties of the game to the audience. Much of my understanding of basketball comes from Mike Fratello, Doug Collins, Dr Jack Ramsey, Hubie Brown, and Bill Raftery breaking down the nuances of the game during broadcasts in the 90's.

[Dewar]

Well, the thing is: it's more complex than that. The Lina fires off her ultimate spell with 60 second cooldown that does a big instant magic damage. Saying "she goes in for the kill" wouldn't be correct, because it would imply that she does something she can do any time. Gyro pops his BKB = Gyro turns on an item that gives spell immunity, it is agains Lina's ultimate, yes, but also against many other spells of other heroes around, the purpose of it is not just to block the one damaging ultimate (which itself doesn't do enough to kill, btw), but to block a lot of other things. ALSO: if Lina has built an Aghanim's scepter item, her Laguna Blade does pure damage, that is goes through spell immunity. So, BKB is not a block against it in all cases too...

 

Yes, there's too much going on to really simplify everything.

 

Also, i wanted to post the link that Moosferatu posted too. It happenned on June 12th, so it seems something has been going on for long now, and not just to Nick.

 

Also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/GTAV/comments/39op3i/why_do_all_hacker_clones_have_green_hair/

There's a ton of stuff going on in football too. My friend I used to watch games with could go on and on about the different formations, the different roles a the same player in the same position have at different times, even down to the names of the particular moves a defender might use to get past a blocker. Football doesn't seem as complicated because the sports casters have gone to great effort to make it understandable, not because it's less complicated than Dota2.

On the subject of the ending to TI5, I got everything I wanted. If those guys had come out of the booth screaming and yelling and being sports-star like, I don't think I'd have enjoyed that as much. They were exhausted and stunned, and I loved it.

[sclpls]

I'd say I can't follow the majority of what American football casters are talking about, but I'm still able to follow the game at my basic level. So I agree with Henroid that I'm not sure being able to understand what the casters are talking about is all that important. I also don't understand Starcraft 2, but can follow that enough even if I don't understand the casters. Even just knowing when they are getting excited is enough to sustain interest even if it is confusing from an outsider perspective.

 

Also I only started playing DOTA a year ago when I was coincidentally sick while the International was happening, so I just spent a couple of days laying on the couch watching these games. I didn't understand a lot of it, but it made me curious to learn more about the game, so I think sometimes that seeming opaqueness can sometimes work in a game's favor. If it was immediately comprehensible I might not have cared!

[Granny Dragon]

I am not certain because I have not played a lot of GTA V, but I imagine that the master green goblin's animation while on Nick's back is also involved if the player is receiving oral sex from a prostitute.

[Henroid]

Fallout Shelter news!

 

Not sure how reliable the source is (it sprung up via Twitter for me) but someone managed to hack the game into working on Windows 10 platform smartphones.

http://wmpoweruser.com/androids-fallout-shelter-hacked-onto-windows-10-mobile/

[Goose Malloy]

I am not certain because I have not played a lot of GTA V, but I imagine that the master green goblin's animation while on Nick's back is also involved if the player is receiving oral sex from a prostitute.

God I hope not. The stroking animation is already really uncomfortable and creepy (I kept on having a weird tingling sensation at the back of my neck while watching that video, and I found myself unconciously having to turn around several times to ensure there wasn't a horrible green haired man behind me). If you're correct about the source of the animation that makes it even worse.

 

Oh and just as a heads up Fallout Shelter is now available on Android. I have the feeling that it won't end up being nearly as entertaining as Chris' stories are, but I might give it a go out of curiosity.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bethsoft.falloutshelter&hl=en_GB

[Turgid]

On commentary, I think it's important to make a distinction between rules and strategy. I agree with Henroid that rules explanations are not really what's needed, but I don't think that's what new people are really asking for. American Football example: commentators don't explain what 4th down means, but they sure point out when a team has to run the ball to avoid a turnover. Or discuss the likelihood of a team choosing to kick a field goal based on the score.

 

Similarly, knowing very little about the specifics of LOMAs, I'd appreciate talk about the manuevers (e.g. they're pushing top, or going for the dragon) and how that contributes to their overall strategy (they're trying to end the game quickly/they're farming and beefing up their carry for the long haul). This kind of thing is much more helpful to following the match and why it's exciting, than the individual abilities being used. Although that's fine too as long as you have the first thing. People can slowly pick up the jargon and details if they have good context for them.

 

My experience with the newbie stream has been way too much specific jargon and not enough explanation of the goals and reasons behind various choices. (Although I admit I'm not that into the sport, I'm not much into football or tennis either but I can follow those a lot easier.)

[sclpls]

I think the rationale is that you actually do need the newbie stream to act as a primer going into the regular casters because it is the regular casters that will break down the kind of strategy components you're seeking to understand, but it will be difficult to understand if you're not familiar with the basic roles of the game or like what a MKB stands for, etc.

 

There's also the economic component to all this. There was an interview with Purge, one of the newbie casters, where he said something to the effect that Valve found that the newbie stream last year wasn't a good value proposition to them relative to the resources they put into it, so they decided to pare it back this year and only run it for the first match of the day. So it also sounds like providing that kind of accessibility doesn't necessarily translate into a meaningful increase in the player base.

[Blambo]

Where's the robot news jingle!? Man what a tease

Personality in eSports:

 

Man this is the reason why Street Fighter is my favorite esports scene. Despite it being extremely deep and technical, the audience and the announcers can at least intuit the emotion of a match and the personalities of the players because there's almost nothing more immediate than two cartoon dudes punching each other on a 2D stage.

 

Also I'd take big dumb half-ironic WWE machismo over detached clean professionalism with the occasional Twitch meme any day.

 

[eRonin]

StarCraft 2 (and by extension, I think also Heroes of the Storm) did at some point include a command for observers to pull back the camera to be able to see more of the map at once, allowing large late-game battles to be viewed in its entirety, especially when flanking maneuvers are happening. Does Dota 2 have something like this?

 

Anyway, all this robot talk is actually kinda sad to hear. Kids harassing mall robots is one thing, but decapitating hitchbot was actually horrific to hear about.

[pkirkner]

StarCraft 2 (and by extension, I think also Heroes of the Storm) did at some point include a command for observers to pull back the camera to be able to see more of the map at once, allowing large late-game battles to be viewed in its entirety, especially when flanking maneuvers are happening.

 

Yes, Dota 2's spectator mode allows for zooming out much further than is allowed for players, and the better commentary streams are good at taking advantage of that.

[Henroid]

Is anyone here playing the DotA 2 beta for revamping the client from the ground up? I don't know what's included in this feature specifically but Valve is building better in-game tools / resources for spectating DotA 2. I don't know how friendly or useful it is for new or passing fans of the game.

[richardco]

WOW

 

WOW

 

WOOOOOOW

 

This episode was really something special.

[Badfinger]

I'm curious if anyone else has watched a few League broadcasts for comparison (or Smite or HOTS) having the same level of familiarity they do with DOTA, and if they have the same concerns of the commentary being too arcane. I tend to pick up jargon really quickly, so I'm not a good test case.

[BigJKO]

Man, I'm itching to hear that Robot News jingle they talked about at the end.

[Polish Hill]

What commentary was played over the ESPN2 streams?  I'd be curious if they were trying to add new viewers by doing a more newbie friendly commentary or if the level of interest is high enough that they can just run the more high level commentary and trust enough Dota players will tune in to make it receive acceptable ratings.

[thenexus6]

This show was awesome loved the Sonic, GTA and Denzel Washington bits.

 

You guys should set up a twitch stream, and see if the Troll pays you a second visit.

[SecretAsianMan]

Even though I've seen the video of the mall robot being harassed, the scenario concocted in the podcast makes me think of it as a progenitor to Five Night At Freddy's.  A robot that goes around threatening and terrifying children while observed from security cameras.  I wonder what it does at night...

[N1njaSquirrel]

Danielle, was the anime short you mentioned per chance Time of Eve?

 

If so it is a worthwhile watch!

[Valorian Endymion]

Amazing episode - the sonic stuff, robot news where all great, and Nick Breckon´s GTA story was almost too real creepypasta. Also, the whole thing with that guy pigback riding remind me of something I heard about a Japanese horror movie, where a ghost would do that (but don´t ask how or why, I just remember what I heard about) but the person could only notice if he looked in the mirror (I guess?)

[Dewar]

I'd say I can't follow the majority of what American football casters are talking about, but I'm still able to follow the game at my basic level. So I agree with Henroid that I'm not sure being able to understand what the casters are talking about is all that important. I also don't understand Starcraft 2, but can follow that enough even if I don't understand the casters. Even just knowing when they are getting excited is enough to sustain interest even if it is confusing from an outsider perspective.

 

Also I only started playing DOTA a year ago when I was coincidentally sick while the International was happening, so I just spent a couple of days laying on the couch watching these games. I didn't understand a lot of it, but it made me curious to learn more about the game, so I think sometimes that seeming opaqueness can sometimes work in a game's favor. If it was immediately comprehensible I might not have cared!

As someone who watches the international every year and has 60 wins under my belt (so not a newcomer, but not super knowledgeable either,) the thing that I still stumble over are the names of the items and the skills. That's what the newcomer stream was really great for, and I was willing to put up with some stuff that was way too basic for me to get more basic descriptions of what items and abilities are doing in the moment.

This is also where I stress my general annoyance at how little advertising the newcomer stream got this year. It was front page on dota2.com/watch for one day, and then it just disappeared. I didn't find out until Friday it was still running on twitch, but none of the other available ways of watching.

[looseteeth]

The neat thing about DotA 2 is that it has a built in library you can access and still hear commentary going. Item info, lord info, it's all there. "Why is Laguna Blade important?" you may ask yourself. Open the book on Lina, and you'll see that it's huge damage, huge mana cost, and long cooldown. It's not a thing done lightly.

 

If all the information you just mentioned was conveyed alongside the match broadcast I would have spent more than ten minutes watching a single match. Even the broadcasters talking about the draft were considerably less helpful than you. I was looking up characters based on the crowd's reaction when they were picked, and even then I was muddied with information because the lack of immediate context was lost on me. The game looked/sounded like this:

 

 

Sure they do. The play-by-play announcer tells you what's happening and the color commentator explains the subtleties of the game to the audience. Much of my understanding of basketball comes from Mike Fratello, Doug Collins, Dr Jack Ramsey, Hubie Brown, and Bill Raftery breaking down the nuances of the game during broadcasts in the 90's.

 

Yeah! They also had instant replay and player bios incorporated into their deliveries, which made basketball into less of a hundred-point sensory assault. It helped a ton to see recorded strengths and weaknesses balanced out with the immediacy of the commentator's attention to detail. Seeing the comprehensive stats in Valve's DotA stream made me feel like I should consult my doctor for an adderall prescription before TI6 if I want to understand anything.

[Henroid]

If all the information you just mentioned was conveyed alongside the match broadcast I would have spent more than ten minutes watching a single match. Even the broadcasters talking about the draft were considerably less helpful than you. I was looking up characters based on the crowd's reaction when they were picked, and even then I was muddied with information because the lack of immediate context was lost on me. The game looked/sounded like this:

The broadcasters talking during the draft is actually one of the biggest context and helpful dumps you can get as a spectator of DotA 2. They explain what characters have good synergy, and while they may not always explain why, it should clue you in on seeing what those two characters are capable of and then figure out why. Hell, on the draft screen you can mouse over the abilities of each pick. It's all right there.

 

Again, being a fan of a sport takes investment to figure out who is good and why. Spectating sports is different than watching Dr. Who or Bones or whatever TV shows are out there.