Fan Fiction

[clyde]

I just discovered the term "Mary Sue". I was hoping we could discuss it. Then I realized that fanfic is a mycelium in this community and so it deserves a thread that focuses on it. 

 

Here is an especially succinct Wikpedia entry on Mary Sue characters. 

 

First of all, Mass Effect's Shepard is going to cause problems because you can pick your gender. As the criticism in the Wikipedia article points out, "Mary Sue" is a gendered pejorative, "Marty Sue" doesn't fix the problem, and the concept is incredibly valuable so a short-hand term like this is a good idea. "Cipher" seems like a good solution, so I'll use that term. 

 

This concept, and the small amount of context of which I have just become aware, is a particularly accessible entrance into a discussion of what fanfic is. Much like "hipsters", when I type it into Youtube's search-bar, I find an infinite scroll of derision. I'm not judging; I know that it can be fun to hate something together, but I think it is worthwhile to note how popular it is to make fun of fanfic. 

 

When I read the Wikipedia entry for "Mary Sue", I was struck by how well this concept described the tendency in action-movies and computer-games to create empowered characters that were devoid of anything but superiority and dominance. Is there a connection? Are Call of Duty, DieHard, and "A Trekkie's Tale" filling similar needs? 

 

Also, it seems obvious to me that a big part of what makes fanfic valuable is the exchange of creative agency from the author to the audience. Put simply, fanfic is for writing more than it is for reading. "A Trekkie's Tale" is lacking in its narrative, but the idea of a disempowered cipher in an established fictional world is intriguing to me. I love the idea of turning a passive medium into an impetus for a creative endeavor. Hopefully, by the end of the day, I will try my hand at fanfic. 

[prettyunsmart]

Isn't the idea of a Mary Sue (gender issues aside) that it is an idealized character inserted into an existing universe? I get where you're coming from in terms of characters like Shepard having no noticeable flaws, but I'd say it would be a more fitting in something like a licensed game. Something like a Star Wars game where you create a character who is a super competent cool guy who is best friends with Han Solo and everyone loves him for some reason.

[Ucantalas]

I've always found fanfiction as a whole to be like the LEGO of the writing world: A way to construct a story using some basic building blocks to flesh it out, such as familiar characters, settings, objects, and relationships, that can be snapped together by the author and held in place with that authors own ideas.

This is bringing back awkward memories of 13-year-old me and my horrific attempts at Yu-Gi-Oh fanfiction... I am thankful that those 2 awful chapters are forever lost to the ages, since the fan website it got posted on has since disappeared into the aether of old shitty websites. It might have actually been a geocities website, now that I think about it... whatever, I'm glad it's gone.

[clyde]

Isn't the idea of a Mary Sue (gender issues aside) that it is an idealized character inserted into an existing universe? I get where you're coming from in terms of characters like Shepard having no noticeable flaws, but I'd say it would be a more fitting in something like a licensed game. Something like a Star Wars game where you create a character who is a super competent cool guy who is best friends with Han Solo and everyone loves him for some reason.

 

What I'm noticing is that demands for agency in games make them particularly suceptible to the creation of cipher characters. I can see your distinction between established universes and new ones, but it doesn't seem like it creates a distinct difference in how they lack of development in these characters. Whether it is an established universe or not, the competence and capability is given to a single character-shell for a measure of self-centricism in the narrative. I wonder if some of the dissappointment in Mass Effect 3 could be seen as Shepard losing too much of her vague/flexible ambitions and demeanor in place of Bioware's attempt to give the character a small amount of development. 

[osmosisch]

As far as I'm aware the masculine version is Gary Stu.

Given that a player character is almost by definition a self-insert in a fictional universe, the concept will always apply except in cases such as the Witcher, where a pre-defined character is being piloted.

[tegan]

I have nothing of value to contribute to this conversation, but I always delight in making people aware that the longest singular written work in the English language is, by a wide margin, this Super Smash Bros. Brawl fanfic. Approaching nearly 4 million words, it's seven times the length of War & Peace.

[SuperBiasedMan]

I think that fact is kind of inevitable given the fact that fanfic writers have immense passion and no editor.

 

As someone who doesn't get that deep into 'worlds' (I usually only watch/play/read the original source, not the expansions of the universe) I find fanfics an odd fascination. Especially when they become the fans way of correcting the mistakes the author made, where it's essentially

"Your story is great but if it used my ideas it'd be truly amazing!"

 

It's like people use fanfics to personalise their experiences of a universe more to them as an individual.

[Bjorn]

When I read the Wikipedia entry for "Mary Sue", I was struck by how well this concept described the tendency in action-movies and computer-games to create empowered characters that were devoid of anything but superiority and dominance. Is there a connection? Are Call of Duty, DieHard, and "A Trekkie's Tale" filling similar needs? 

 

I get where you're going with that connection, but I think there is a pretty strong difference between the power fantasy most games indulge in and a proper Mary Sue.  Game characters may be powerful, but they aren't necessarily annoyingly perfect. 

[clyde]

I'm currently watching tutorial videos of how to write good fanfic. One of the tutors explains that she didn't just want to write fanfic; she was obsessed with an idea for a story. This goes back to that adage about how if you are unsure of whether or not you can write, then stop. I don't like that adage though, I like to push myself a little bit. Still, I have no idea how to get into the mentality of a fanfic author. First I have to choose source material. The problem is that my favorite stories did it perfectly. Typically my problems with them are that they put useless parts in, not that they didn't include something essential. In Master's Sun, Playful Kiss, Coffee Shop Prince, You Are Beautiful, and Me Too Flower, they already got together and they did it in a satisfying way. I could do My Lovely Samsoon, but one of the things I enjoy about that show is that the eventual romance feels doomed at the end. I don't want to fix that. 

Hmmm.

 

Edit: One of the tutorials says to "keep it to the fandom". This might be a problem. I'm coming into this as a poser. It sounds like an essential part of being able to write fanfic well is that you are already a part of the fandom community. I wonder if its possible to write fanfic as a lone-wolf. If I do so, I think I'll probably be missing out on a big part of the experience. 

I guess I need to chose a fandom to become part of. 

 

 

I get where you're going with that connection, but I think there is a pretty strong difference between the power fantasy most games indulge in and a proper Mary Sue.  Game characters may be powerful, but they aren't necessarily annoyingly perfect. 

I think I strongly disagree with this. I might get annoyed with perfection faster than other people. Shepard, Hawke, The Hero of Ferelden, my Oblivion character, the Dragonborne, every character I've played in a FPS, all of these characters seem so capable of overcoming tasks through dialogue-tree exploration or combat that there is no room for self-examination through failure. When they try to suggest such, it just bounces right off of me. 

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm currently watching tutorial videos of how to write good fanfic. One of the tutors explains that she didn't just want to write fanfic; she was obsessed with an idea for a story. This goes back to that adage about how if you are unsure of whether or not you can write, then stop. I don't like that adage though, I like to push myself a little bit. Still, I have no idea how to get into the mentality of a fanfic author. First I have to choose source material. The problem is that my favorite stories did it perfectly. Typically my problems with them are that they put useless parts in, not that they didn't include something essential. In Master's Sun, Playful Kiss, Coffee Shop Prince, You Are Beautiful, and Me Too Flower, they already got together and they did it in a satisfying way. I could do My Lovely Samsoon, but one of the things I enjoy about that show is that the eventual romance feels doomed at the end. I don't want to fix that. 

Hmmm.

 

If you're struggling because you're looking for a source to start from, then I would say that maybe "fan" fiction isn't right for you.  Fan fiction comes about because the author has a story or idea that they want to portray in a given world; the source material suggests the fiction.  If you have a fiction and are looking for a source to insert it into, then the source is probably irrelevant.  You may be better off just writing your own fiction, foregoing the "fan" part.

 

 

I think I strongly disagree with this. I might get annoyed with perfection faster than other people. Shepard, Hawke, The Hero of Ferelden, my Oblivion character, the Dragonborne, every character I've played in a FPS, all of these characters seem so capable of overcoming tasks through dialogue-tree exploration or combat that there is no room for self-examination through failure. When they try to suggest such, it just bounces right off of me. 

 

The difference to me is that while you or your character are capable of overcoming the challenge, it is still possible to fail, even if that failure has no more consequence than reloading a save.  A Mary Sue character would be incapable of failure in the first place.  They are perfection personified, playing through their version of the game with all the cheats enabled.  Neither one gives much room for character growth though so in that sense they're similar.

[feelthedarkness]

This seems like a great place to talk about Marijuana Simpson! This thing is kind of blowing my mind. It's Pynchonesque. Recap: some twitter user wrote a screenplay, in 5,100 tweets. Full Simpsons cast, plus the major players and villains of the Bush administration.

 

Somebody compiled the tweets into an easier to read manuscript:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/233219778/Marijuana-Simpson

 

 

HOMER: This isn't my son!

[A grotesque, muscular caricature of Bart is hanging out with a couple of jugheads, shooting the shit and drinking Millers]

HOMER: I don't even recognize him without a bong in his hand!

MIKE: He hasn't noticed us yet.

BOB: The kid's wasted.

HOMER: Son.

BART, surprised: Father? What the fuck? Why are...how?

HOMER: What the fuck did they do to you...I'm going to cry.

MIKE: Get this guy some herb!

BART: I don't want that shit around me

HOMER: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

BART: You heard me, father.

I'm a grown ass man. I'm here. Fighting for my-for YOUR fucking life. I can't sit around all day smoking kush. Not anymore.
I need clarity of mind, high reaction time, if I'm lifted out there, when it's either me or some terrorist, I'm a fucking goner.
This is for you, father. This is for our family. I think of you guys every time I turn down the hashish pipe.
I know you're anti-war. I was too. But this is what I have to be. I'm here for a reason. I met their demands. Now meet mine and leave.

HOMER: I came here for you.

BART: Why? So you could get me high and show me SNL Web Shorts?

HOMER: You love Laser Cats.

BART: I love America.

[clyde]

I think I found my in. 

It looks like someone wrote a fanfic about the actors in Master's Sun from the male lead's perspective. This is something I might be able to get into. I totally want to read about So Ji Sub and Gong Hyo Jin hooking up on the set. 

 

..do I actually have to pay for this?

$5! are you fucking with me??!

[Ucantalas]

This seems like a great place to talk about Marijuana Simpson! This thing is kind of blowing my mind. It's Pynchonesque. Recap: some twitter user wrote a screenplay, in 5,100 tweets. Full Simpsons cast, plus the major players and villains of the Bush administration.

 

I've heard of this Marijuana Simpson, and started reading some of it a few days ago.

My biggest criticism is... well, none of the characters seem to be even close to their actual characters. It's just home-made characters that share the Simpson character names. Replacing the names with other names, like replace all instances of "Homer" with... I dunno, "Frank", it wouldn't feel different. It just uses the empty skins of these characters as puppets to perform the creators own play. It doesn't take advantage of the personal quirks and personalities that could be molded into a story, instead gutting out everything and only using the shallowest surface forms to make it more digestible to the public.

(Also I'm just not a fan of all the marijuana reference stuff. I know that's a cornerstone of the entire thing, which is a big reason I feel this just isn't for me.)

[Bjorn]

 

I think I strongly disagree with this. I might get annoyed with perfection faster than other people. Shepard, Hawke, The Hero of Ferelden, my Oblivion character, the Dragonborne, every character I've played in a FPS, all of these characters seem so capable of overcoming tasks through dialogue-tree exploration or combat that there is no room for self-examination through failure. When they try to suggest such, it just bounces right off of me. 

 

SAM got some of what I was intending to convey.  There are absolutely Mary Sue characters in games, but I don't think the big ones are necessarily that way.  Shepard is a particularly interesting one.  If you play the Renegade route in ME3, that is not a Mary Sue.  Shepard is fucking deranged psychopath who is barely maintaining her composure in a universe that is falling apart around her ears. She's mean, short tempered and prone to cruel outbursts directed at her closest allies.  This results in fractured, crumbling relationships where people only tolerate her because she is their best shot at winning.  She still "wins" in the end, but it ain't pretty getting there.  I think that kind of experience has some element in any of the big, branching RPGs that give you some control in shaping your characters personality and relationships. 

 

I guess that creates an interesting question.  Are there Mary Sue routes in some RPGs?  Can you create a Mary Sue character/experience?  And is that a bad thing if there are a bunch of other options that are not that?

[mikemariano]

My biggest criticism is... well, none of the characters seem to be even close to their actual characters. It's just home-made characters that share the Simpson character names. Replacing the names with other names, like replace all instances of "Homer" with... I dunno, "Frank", it wouldn't feel different. It just uses the empty skins of these characters as puppets to perform the creators own play. It doesn't take advantage of the personal quirks and personalities that could be molded into a story, instead gutting out everything and only using the shallowest surface forms to make it more digestible to the public.

 

That is fanfiction.  Like Clyde said, it's meant to be written more than read, and in many cases the author wouldn't be able to write their work without having existing characters to work with.

 

Even if they betray everything about those characters!

 

I once came across some Avenue Q fanfiction that was prefaced with a stern authors note that said "pretend these two puppets are humans with skin, legs, etc."  This was solely because the author was too lazy to make her anatomically specific story fit anything about the existing characters.

[clyde]

I found a free one

http://wanderingindie.tumblr.com/touchlove

and in the first chapter I was like "Whatever, she wouldn't be that forward"; but by the fourth chapter, I'm like "This is hawt. I think I can get into some fanfic." I've watched the show twice and I now realize that this fruit hasn't been fully squozen. At first I didn't like how the author conflates the personalities of the characters with the personalities of the actors, but now I'm like "Yeah. This is great, it's the characters I like anyway, and I would love to see those characters in a show about making Master's Sun!"

Check this excerpt out, it really expresses that this is a great idea for a K-drama in its own right.

“And don’t worry. After the filming ends, everything will be back to normal. We’ll fall out of love once we shed off our characters. This is what keeps me sane and not overthink the emotions I invest on my dramas, knowing that it is just temporary.”

I don't think he's going to be able to quit her after the filming is over.

SAM got some of what I was intending to convey. There are absolutely Mary Sue characters in games, but I don't think the big ones are necessarily that way. Shepard is a particularly interesting one. If you play the Renegade route in ME3, that is not a Mary Sue. Shepard is fucking deranged psychopath who is barely maintaining her composure in a universe that is falling apart around her ears. She's mean, short tempered and prone to cruel outbursts directed at her closest allies. This results in fractured, crumbling relationships where people only tolerate her because she is their best shot at winning. She still "wins" in the end, but it ain't pretty getting there. I think that kind of experience has some element in any of the big, branching RPGs that give you some control in shaping your characters personality and relationships.

I guess that creates an interesting question. Are there Mary Sue routes in some RPGs? Can you create a Mary Sue character/experience? And is that a bad thing if there are a bunch of other options that are not that?

This makes me want to try playing through the trilogy as as a renegade. Your description is miles away from what my paragon-bias Shep became by the third game.

As far as annoyingly capable ciphers being a deeper experience if you have options: When I attempt to roleplay in GTA games specifically, I often do so by burdening my character with traffic laws and common decency. In in this scenario, it has exactly the effect you postulate. Because GTA's lack of consequence and accessibility to guns and vehicles (or inaccessibility to conversation and relationships) I think the default method of play is as an annoyingly overpowered cipher. This default comes into so much contrast with the experience of checking my emails on my cellphone to kill time while waiting for a train and over-hearing a phone call from someone nearby. That contrast does make me feel more ownership over my character.

[Bjorn]

This makes me want to try playing through the trilogy as as a renegade. Your description is miles away from what my paragon-bias Shep became by the third game.

As far as annoyingly capable ciphers being a deeper experience if you have options: When I attempt to roleplay in GTA games specifically, I often do so by burdening my character with traffic laws and common decency. In in this scenario, it has exactly the effect you postulate. Because GTA's lack of consequence and accessibility to guns and vehicles (or inaccessibility to conversation and relationships) I think the default method of play is as an annoyingly overpowered cipher. This default comes into so much contrast with the experience of checking my emails on my cellphone to kill time while waiting for a train and over-hearing a phone call from someone nearby. That contrast does make me feel more ownership over my character.

 

I don't want to oversell the Renegade path, but if you really like ME3, it's worth playing a bit of.  I actually think the Renegade script is just a lot more uneven and more poorly edited than the Paragon script, which results in the deranged/unhinged element.  I don't know if that was intentional or not.  As an example, one time I talked to Joker and the Renegade option resulted in some dark and edgy, but otherwise good natured, banter.  The very next time I talked to him, the Renegade option made Shepard snap and start screaming at him about how she was sick and tired of his shit.  It bugged me at first, but I finally just reconciled it by deciding that the pressure of the previous few years was finally bringing my Shepard to her knees mentally and she could barely keep her shit together to get the job done. 

 

I do try and do a similar thing as you and impose certain limitations on myself in open world games like that, but it usually only lasts for a little while.  At some point I get impatient at following traffic rules in a game where I have to drive and just start running over shit (I'm looking at you, LA Noire). 

[clyde]

Oh man. That was fucking great. And then I go to hit "Next Chapter" and there is nothing there. I checked the date on the last post and it was in March. That was months ago. I am concerned.

Obviously, I need to write some fanfic for the fanfic, but I don't think I have the chops. That was really enjoyable. If you didn't watch the show then it probably wouldn't be very good. But I did. Twice. Ah, so this is fandom. What a frustrated mess. I think I'm going to buy the $5 one because it's the same premise and it's 136 pages long. That will keep my withdrawl at bay for a week or so and maybe I'll pick up some pointers.

Aw man, I wonder how many times I can read about them getting together before it gets old. I bet I could easily find more if I could read Korean. hmmm.

[Roderick]

Isn't Mary Sue a rather disparaging term used to identify badly written characters that are obvious stand-ins for the author, hollow expressions of wish fulfilment? We should be careful to bandy about this term, since it's full of loopholes and vaguery, and at the end of the day is as much about a personal feeling you have with a character as it approaches some objective criticism. It's a limited term. The best use is as a geuzennaam for this awesome website.

[Bjorn]

I'm fascinated by this personal character arc where clyde has gone from discovery, to confusion, to curiosity, to fascination and finally to obsession all in one day. 

[clyde]

I'm a protean fellow.

My interest in Korean rom-coms has established itself over the last few years. Korean pop-culture has a high amount of interconnectedness. So the pop-stars are often in the dramas; the actors go on musical tours even though they lack the ability to sing in tune, that type of stuff. So because I watch k-pop music videos and consume rom-coms when they aren't terrible, I have been aware that there is a fanfic element as a bystander. In You Are Beautiful for instance, the show is about a boy-band. Three members of the cast are actually in separate bands. In one scene, Jeremy is reading fanfic about the fictional band he is in in the show. Those references mix with the release-news that includes tid-bits like rumored plans of fans to "black-ocean" an EXO concert because one of the members has been revealed to date a Girl's Generation member. So I knew that fandom was a well-worn aspect of a thing I already enjoy, but I've never really made an effort to explore it.

The recent discussion of fanfic as a media in the Feminism-thread and recent podcast discussiom has reminded me that I like the idea of fanfic. This reminder points out to me that I am not getting the portion of fandom that I'm aware of on my periphery.

I usually walk into things which other people are vocally passionate about (if they look fun and loving) with the assumption that there is an potential appreciation that I am missing out on. When I try them out, it doesn't always hook. Point & Click adventure-games, anime, and action-movies come to mind. But I think that I've already invested a lot in Hallyu, so I was more likely to attach than to not. I would love to know what Bjorn's reaction to watching 16 episodes of Master's Sun, and then reading the fanfic I read today, would be. But obviously that would be a huge investment for anyone. I often wonder about what creates affinity, having a control-experiment to compate and contrast with would be interesting.

Seriously though. I'm looking forward to reading more of this stuff. It can't all be as good as the one I read today, I might just be riding high on a lucky find.

[Bjorn]

I would love to know what Bjorn's reaction to watching 16 episodes of Master's Sun, and then reading the fanfic I read today, would be. But obviously that would be a huge investment for anyone.

 

I actually have an odd soft spot for RomComs and for soap operas, so it's not impossible.  But I'm assuming these are sub-titled only and not dubbed?  My wife can't do subtitles, she finds them super distracting, so I don't get to watch as much foreign stuff as I would like since I'm unlikely to sit down and watch anything without her (would typically read or game rather than watching stuff by myself). 

 

 

I often wonder about what creates affinity, having a control-experiment to compate and contrast with would be interesting.

 

 

I think some stuff like this ends up being temporal.  You find a show, or fanfic, or something at just the right time that you are open to it.  and had you found it at any other point in your life, it may not have clicked at all the same. 

[clyde]

It is subtitled, but here is the link to watch it if you and your wife are feeling especially ambitious one evening.

http://www.viki.com/videos/1008739v-masters-sun-episode-1

I watch these with my wife and we freak the fuck out when the romantic tension gets too high. Its good fun. I hear you though, subtitles are a huge barrier to hurdle.

[Argobot]

I'm fascinated by this personal character arc where clyde has gone from discovery, to confusion, to curiosity, to fascination and finally to obsession all in one day. 

 

Making him better written than most fan fiction characters.

[tegan]

One potentially fascinating topic is the increasing validity of fanfic and fan-involvement in media. For instance, Natashi Allegri's gender-swapped versions of the Adventure Time cast actually making it into the show (as fanfiction written by the Ice King, naturally).

 

 

 

Also, I know that there is definitely a certain artistic validity to fan fiction and plenty of worthwhile work being produced etc, but this is still the first thing that enters my mind when I think "fanfic."