Fan Fiction

[clyde]

I finished reading that fanfic novella. The first half of it takes place in parallel with the events of the canon; the fanfic is about the romance behind the scenes of a 16 episode show. But once the show was over and the spine of familiar events was left behind with no promise of a return, my interest continued to dwindle.

Lesson learned; maintain a close weave with the canon. Extrapolation is fine, but I want it to always be in the service of adding context which can retroactively inform the canon. It was like watching a documentary about the making of a game and then the game is finished half-way through and the second half is about the part-time job they return to.

[clyde]

Tonight I found out that people make movie-trailers for EXO fanfic. THe world is an amazing place.

[clyde]

Here's an article positing that fan-fiction kills fictional characters by stretching out their meaning.

http://kotaku.com/a-look-inside-the-soul-of-sonic-the-hedgehog-1615891789

Sanic '06, then, doesn't imagine the death of Sonic as a literal death, or the "washed-up celebrity" trope that Sonic fans are used to, but the point where the internal logics of Sonic, everything we use to understand and identify something as Sonic media starts to break down and dissolve. If the Mascot relies on familiarity and ease of understanding, then the death of the Mascot would imply the destruction of these ideas.

[Merus]

Here's an article positing that fan-fiction kills fictional characters by stretching out their meaning.

 

That's.... not what that article's saying.

[clyde]

That's.... not what that article's saying.

 

I think the article said many more things, but my main take-away was that the many re-purposings eventually dissolved any essential meaning of the symbol. 

 

Edit: I think I may have figured out the point of confusion. I often conflate fan-fiction with additional licensed content. So for instance, I think that Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books are fan-fiction.

[Bjorn]

Edit: I think I may have figured out the point of confusion. I often conflate fan-fiction with additional licensed content. So for instance, I think that Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books are fan-fiction.

 

I'm actually starting to think that it's almost better to discuss some licensed content as fan fiction rather than addressing it as a core part of the property. 

[SecretAsianMan]

So for instance, I think that Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books are fan-fiction.

 

They basically are now that Disney has disavowed the entire Expanded Universe.

[Bjorn]

So looking for something else this morning, I came across this report from April about China cracking down on homoerotic slash fiction writers, including arresting some of them. 

[SecretAsianMan]

I don't want to derail this thread into a debate, but I seriously hate China these days.

[Bjorn]

It changes my perspective on fan fiction to some extent knowing that there are places in the world where you are in real danger to create it, whether that's financial (from IP laws), Canada's fucked interpretation of pornography or places where homosexuality is criminalized. 

[Twig]

Canada's fucked interpretation of pornography

The article seems to dance around it, but if I'm understanding correctly, it is hentai of underage children? That's gross. While I don't think the guy should have to register as a sex offender or spend a year in jail, I fully support a complete and total ban on comics featuring underage children depicted in sexual situations. Granted, because Japan, that would include practically all hentai, since they looove their high school girls, but I'm okay with that, too. What I'm saying is I don't know if I agree that this is a "fucked interpretation of pornography", so much as a fucked up punishment.

 

If I'm wrong about what they actually found on that guy's laptop, then I guess this whole post was meaningless.

[SecretAsianMan]

The article seems to dance around it, but if I'm understanding correctly, it is hentai of underage children? That's gross. While I don't think the guy should have to register as a sex offender or spend a year in jail, I fully support a complete and total ban on comics featuring underage children depicted in sexual situations. Granted, because Japan, that would include practically all hentai, since they looove their high school girls, but I'm okay with that, too. What I'm saying is I don't know if I agree that this is a "fucked interpretation of pornography", so much as a fucked up punishment.

 

If I'm wrong about what they actually found on that guy's laptop, then I guess this whole post was meaningless.

 

I don't totally agree with you here.  I'm not saying I condone comics depicting underage children in sexual situations, but I wouldn't support a ban on them either.  If that's not your thing (or if it is), that's fine but I strongly dislike getting rid of something simply because you don't like it.  That's such a dangerous thought.  Basically I agree that it's a "fucked interpretation".

[Twig]

I generally agree with the philosophy of "if that's not your thing, that's fine", but this is underage children. It doesn't matter if they're not real, that's fucking disgusting.

[Codicier]

The article seems to dance around it, but if I'm understanding correctly, it is hentai of underage children? That's gross. While I don't think the guy should have to register as a sex offender or spend a year in jail, I fully support a complete and total ban on comics featuring underage children depicted in sexual situations. Granted, because Japan, that would include practically all hentai, since they looove their high school girls, but I'm okay with that, too. 

 

It's unclear from that article whether what exactly he was caught with but if Canadian law is like the UK. In the UK at least you need to be 16+ to legally have sex but 18+ to legally appear in pornography, whether you are a fictional character or not, so high school girls would definitely come within it.

Anyways IRC I think the CBLDF argue there's a difference between Erotica (a story which contains sexual elements) & Pornography, and between young adults (16-18) & underage children(-16). 

I don't feel they would defend someone who had the latter, but i could be wrong.

 

I'm a huge Alan Moore fan & a few years back the CBLDF were heavily involved in a controversy around him producing a book called "The Lost Girls" with his partner Melinda Gebbie as a 'erotic' take on some classical literature characters (Wendy, Alice, & Dorothy, think of it a big name, high production fanfiction in a way! )But anyway Uk law meant there was a good chance Moore's book could at least in theory be classed as child pornography, which is why it's probably the only longform work of his I haven't read.

 

The Japanese schoolgirl thing is Skeevy as all hell, but also absolutely everywhere if you watch anime or read manga there's a good chance at some point your going to run into a toxic combination of the sexualised portrayal of teenagers, & ubiquitous Fan service.  Just off the top of my head Kill La Kill (which was heavily discussed in the anime thread last season) sails pretty close to the line sometimes but did so with a narrative reasoning so i didn't feel too freaked out by it, but on the other hand I remember being legitimately repulsed by a show called High School of the Dead a few years back.

[Bjorn]

The article seems to dance around it, but if I'm understanding correctly, it is hentai of underage children? That's gross. While I don't think the guy should have to register as a sex offender or spend a year in jail, I fully support a complete and total ban on comics featuring underage children depicted in sexual situations. Granted, because Japan, that would include practically all hentai, since they looove their high school girls, but I'm okay with that, too. What I'm saying is I don't know if I agree that this is a "fucked interpretation of pornography", so much as a fucked up punishment.

 

If I'm wrong about what they actually found on that guy's laptop, then I guess this whole post was meaningless.

 

I used that wording intentionally, as both the story is vague and there is clearly (to me) a grey area that I would prefer to not have legislated by a government.  If the work includes pornographic drawings of little kids in sex acts, that's fucked.  If it features ambiguously aged teens who may be between 14 and 20 within the context of the work, then I'm not nearly as comfortable saying that something like that should be criminalized or legislated in any way.  The description of the Canadian law seems to be vague enough that it could include something like the second type. 

 

For me, this is completely in the area of things that I am not personally interested in, and may even abhor, but I don't believe that anyone else should have the right to ban it either. 

[Twig]

Yeah I understand it's not a black and white thing (for example I loved Kill la Kill, and that definitely rode the line very deliberately!), and I'll acknowledge that the way I presented my stance originally was very black and white. I sort of just reacted without thinking. Anyway, when I am talking about the really gross shit, it's mostly all that loli porn that is explicitly underdeveloped children who are very obviously not even close to an adult.

 

But yes that article is extremely vague. I feel like I can't get behind either side there without a lot more information. Like I almost need to see what Canada is all up in arms about, even if I don't necessarily want to see it!

 

Anyway I'm sorry for derailing this fan fiction thread maybe I will shut up now. I'M SORRY. FORGIVE ME.

[clyde]

When I think about these things I make sure to ask myself "Which will do more harm: the crime or the enforcement?"

[Twig]

When it comes to child porn, I think the answer is rather obvious.

[Bjorn]

When it comes to child porn, I think the answer is rather obvious.

 

But drawn porn isn't child porn, it harms no one (unless it's based on a real people, in which case that's something different).  Child porn features actual people.  Drawings are just people's imaginations put on paper.  It's the kind of territory that gets really close to thought crime. 

 

There are three arguments about this kind of thing (any unethical or illegal porn and the fictionalized, drawing/animated version of the same thing).  One, that it leads people to the real thing.  Two, that it actually keeps people from seeking out the real thing.  And three, that it has no effect either way.  We don't have good data on it, so I'm not willing to declare that it causes actual harm.  There is the possibility that it actually creates less harm by keeping people from finding the real shit.  Kinda like how methadone keeps people off heroin.

[SecretAsianMan]

But drawn porn isn't child porn, it harms no one (unless it's based on a real people, in which case that's something different).  Child porn features actual people.  Drawings are just people's imaginations put on paper.  It's the kind of territory that gets really close to thought crime. 

 

There are three arguments about this kind of thing (any unethical or illegal porn and the fictionalized, drawing/animated version of the same thing).  One, that it leads people to the real thing.  Two, that it actually keeps people from seeking out the real thing.  And three, that it has no effect either way.  We don't have good data on it, so I'm not willing to declare that it causes actual harm.  There is the possibility that it actually creates less harm by keeping people from finding the real shit.  Kinda like how methadone keeps people off heroin.

 

This is also how I feel about it.  The same three arguments have been made about video game violence.  Obviously child pornography and murder are not the same thing (unless you count certain types of snuff but that's beside the point).   The idea that an imaginary thing should be banned because it's based on a real thing people find reprehensible is a concept that seriously bothers me, whatever that thing may be.  I'm generally ok with regulating and perhaps in certain cases restricting access to that thing, but not with making it illegal to exist, at least in the imaginary case.

[Twig]

I don't care if it's not "real people", it's fucking filthy and disgusting. There's no defending it. It's one of those things where "oh, well it's okay then so whatever I'll just keep doing it", and then what if it expands from there? I don't give a shit if that's a slippery slope argument or whatever, this is not a thing that should exist. I can't even believe there are people who would defend it. It actually just makes me extremely fucking angry, so I'm walking away from this.

[Ben X]

Re. Lost Girls, Alan Moore prefers to call it porn rather than erotica. Also, the characters engaging in sexual acts are all at least in their 20s, as far as I'm aware.

 

I'm with Bjorn and SAM on the other stuff.

[Bjorn]

I defend all sorts of speech/content I find reprehensible, like the Phelps clan and the KKK being able to protest and speak.  Even though I think some of those types of things can actually be dangerous.  But that's clearly going beyond the fan fiction part of this thread.  Unless someone wants to write some interracial Phelps/KKK homoerotic fiction.  Hard to call it fan fiction at that point.  Hate fiction?  Antagofiction?

[SecretAsianMan]

Poetic justice?

[Codicier]

Re. Lost Girls, Alan Moore prefers to call it porn rather than erotica. Also, the characters engaging in sexual acts are all at least in their 20s, as far as I'm aware.

 

Wikipedia has this much to say on it:

 

 

Wendy Durling. Wendy's sexual escapades begin when she meets a homeless teenage boy named Peter and his sister Annabelin Kensington Gardens. 

 

Dorothy Gale. While trapped in her house during a cyclone, she begins masturbating and experiences her first orgasm at the age of sixteen. She has sexual encounters with three farm hands whom she refers to as The Straw Man, The Cowardly Lion and The Tin Man

 

Alice Fairchild. At fourteen, Alice is coerced into sex with her father's friend, which she endures by staring into a mirror and imagines she is having sex with herself. At an all-girls boarding school, Alice convinces many of her schoolmates to sleep with her, and develops a strong attraction to her P.E. teacher, who offers Alice a job as a personal assistant (and sexual plaything) when she leaves employment at the school.

 

Trying to drag this conversation a bit back to fan fiction from the dark dark hole it seems to have climbed into, It's no surprise that in this sort of case copyright holder are rarely exactly happy about any of this.

Moore is a interesting character when considering fan fiction in general, since he's always been more than happy to play with other people characters in ways that perhaps were not originally intended with The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (& to a lesser extent Watchmen) a prime example

The series ends with what is essentially a Harry Potter Anti-Christ being destroyed by Mary Poppins/God

.

Despite this if you said Fan Fiction I wouldn't necessarily think of Moore or anyone else who has explored characters who's copyright has long faded, even though apart from their professionalism they often meet the supposed categorisation criteria.