I Had a Random Thought (About Video Games)

[Twig]

Man I don't even see it like that. Sarah wasn't acting hysterical. She was just frozen with terror. That's how I always see it happening. Maybe it's just the things I watch don't have that aspect to it.

[Bjorn]

I think it's just a case of a trope that originally was exclusive to women, but in modern time has undergone a kind of retro-sexism reversal where men are the ones being slapped but with the subtext of "this is funny because a man is acting hysterical like a women and he got slapped." At least that's how I often read it when it's used for humor.

 

(This is so widely off-topic from what is being discussed, sorry)

 

It may be that I'm a bit older than a lot of the commenters here, so grew up watching a ton more tv and movies from the 50s-80s, establishing the image that it's a trope involving women.  Whereas if someone grew up mostly watching stuff from the late 80s through early 00s, then they would see it mostly being used against men. 

 

So, ummm, don't go searching for "slapping a hysterical woman" on YouTube.  It will do nothing for your faith in humanity.  I'm going to go drive around and not be near the Internet for the next couple of hours now.

[SecretAsianMan]

It may be that I'm a bit older than a lot of the commenters here, so grew up watching a ton more tv and movies from the 50s-80s, establishing the image that it's a trope involving women.  Whereas if someone grew up mostly watching stuff from the late 80s through early 00s, then they would see it mostly being used against men. 

 

Just so you don't feel totally alone I have the same association as you.  Kids these days.

[West]

Did anyone else read Sarah as anyone other than a character that was a bit flighty and sheltered?  That tumblr post seemed to take it for granted that she was neurodivergent, and yet I haven't seen anything in the game that really makes that a given or even likely scenario.  I find it hard to imagine that Telltale possesses the subtlety and precision required to purposefully present a disabled or neurodivergent character without giving her a distinctly disabled attributes; whether it be autism, dsylexia or even something with physical representation like Down Syndrome.

 

I'm not trying to defend what Greg Miller and the Telltale employees said in the interview, because I think they were pretty disrespectful to Sarah as a character, and if she was an actual person their behavior would be pretty appalling.  However, given the language of the tumblr post and that site's proclivity for misplacing or misrepresenting their anger, it seems to me that Telltale wasn't being ableist shitty, they were just being regularly shitty.

[Twig]

Thinking about it since I read that blog post, I do remember her father saying stuff like "she's special" or "she's different" or something, implying that she literally cannot handle the stress of the zombie apocalypse. I never took it as meaning she was actually mentally disabled in some fashion - more that he was her father and wanted to protect her from the horrors of life as it now is - but that may be my ignorance in dealing with mental disabilities. So, to conclude: I still have no idea if she's actually got a real problem, or if it's just an assumption.

[Professor Video Games]

From a narrative perspective it would be weird to make her mentally disabled when it's clear she exists explicitly to contrast with Clem in how people handle the apocalypse, especially when the exact same scenario was described by that other girl with regards to her sister. If she had a disability it makes the whole choice of whether or not to leave her behind lose its meaning (at least in the context of that episode). Personally I never thought she had those sorts of issues, but I'm not going to discount the possibility that I was just oblivious to their story cues because being oblivious is my standard mode of operation.

[chummer]

I find it hard to imagine that Telltale possesses the subtlety and precision required to purposefully present a disabled or neurodivergent character without giving her a distinctly disabled attributes; whether it be autism, dsylexia or even something with physical representation like Down Syndrome.

 

Harshest call out.

 

 

Thinking about it since I read that blog post, I do remember her father saying stuff like "she's special" or "she's different" or something, implying that she literally cannot handle the stress of the zombie apocalypse. I never took it as meaning she was actually mentally disabled in some fashion - more that he was her father and wanted to protect her from the horrors of life as it now is - but that may be my ignorance in dealing with mental disabilities. So, to conclude: I still have no idea if she's actually got a real problem, or if it's just an assumption.

 

Am I the only one here who has almost always heard those phrases used as euphemisms for neurodivergent? When I was growing up, going on the 'special' bus or to  the 'special' class was specifically used among my peers to mean so.

[Twig]

Am I the only one here who has almost always heard those phrases used as euphemisms for neurodivergent? When I was growing up, going on the 'special' bus or to  the 'special' class was specifically used among my peers to mean so.

No, that's something I experienced, too. But in this case I took it as a father sheltering his daughter a little too much, rather than what's being asserted now. It didn't even cross my mind. Until now, I mean. Which is why I brought it up.

[West]

Am I the only one here who has almost always heard those phrases used as euphemisms for neurodivergent? When I was growing up, going on the 'special' bus or to  the 'special' class was specifically used among my peers to mean so.

 

I'm familiar with this phrasing as well, although in the context of the game I had the same reading as twig.  Something interesting though is that in season one Kenny uses similar phrases to describe Duck, and in that context I got a much stronger feeling of possible neurodivergence than I ever did with Sarah.

[SuperBiasedMan]

I didn't really know what neurodivergence actually meant when reading this earlier, so I looked it up on wikipedia to get a quick clarification and this part of the article stood out to me:

 

Neurodiversity is also an international online disability rights movement that has been promoted primarily by the autistic self-advocate community ... . This movement frames neurodiversity as a natural human variation rather than a disease, and its advocates reject the idea that neurological differences need to be (or can be) cured, as they believe them to be authentic forms of human diversity, self-expression, and being.

 

This sentiment gels with me, as someone who thinks that at times people get overly worried about people (particularly children) who are higher than average on the autism spectrum but still high functioning. To me if you're different, giving your difference a label shouldn't make it a special problem to be solved by everyone around you, it should just be a way of characterising and understanding a person. Obviously there's a lot of grey area with what is high functioning and at what point is it worth taking real care with how someone is raised and interacted with, but I think on the whole I find people overly cautious as soon as a type of behaviour has a psychological label attached because of the stigma that generates.

 

My main point though is that this very quote implies (to me) that it's not fair to say this is an ableist issue if she IS neurodivergent since the very point of this definition of neurodivergence is that Sarah would be no less able than anyone else, she'd merely respond differently to how other people around her do. Which also gels with my interpretation of her character. She responded totally reasonably. Frankly Clem's response, though it was obviously shaped highly by Lee's influence, seems more atypical to me as she's just grasped her role so well. She becomes too capable for someone her age, especially given how frequently the rest of her group will lean on her for important, dangerous tasks.

 

...of course if I'm wrong could someone explain what neurodivergent is supposed to mean in the context? It just reads as someone with a different kind of brain/thought process, and if that is the case I stand by this post.

[Twig]

Yeah, I had also never heard the term "neurodivergent" before, and I assumed it was a very specific kind of mental disability. Then I looked it up, and I like the word. It's a good word. It'll take some time for me to adjust to using it where it should be used, but I'm glad I learned of it. So, at the very least, one good thing came from all this! For me, anyway.

 

I think I also agree with you in one sense, SBM, but... I think it's still fair to use the word "ableist" in reference to this, as using the concept of "neurodivergence" to refer to Sarah, or people who actually are like that, doesn't preclude other people being discriminatory.

 

In other words, just because we're using a word that attempts to fight discrimination doesn't mean the discrimination doesn't still exist.

[West]

...of course if I'm wrong could someone explain what neurodivergent is supposed to mean in the context? It just reads as someone with a different kind of brain/thought process, and if that is the case I stand by this post.

 

No, your understanding of the term is correct and I agree with you.  I think the confusion comes more from the tumblr post than anything else.  The post says she is being discriminated against because people don't like her because she's different, but it also states that she is being discriminated against because she is disabled.  However, the post doesn't identify Sarah's disability, it just states that she is disabled.  Likewise, the game doesn't distinctly say that she has a disability, and also doesn't seem to suggest that she has one either.  Abelism is a form of discrimination that is distinctly targeted at people with disabilities, not just people who are different in some way.  In that context, I think the post is actually insensitive of people who actually have a disability.  My younger brother has Down Syndrome, so maybe I'm a bit more sensitive to the topic, but I think it's wrong to label someone as disabled if they don't actually have a disability, which seems to be the case here.

[Gormongous]

No, your understanding of the term is correct and I agree with you.  I think the confusion comes more from the tumblr post than anything else.  The post says she is being discriminated against because people don't like her because she's different, but it also states that she is being discriminated against because she is disabled.  However, the post doesn't identify Sarah's disability, it just states that she is disabled.  Likewise, the game doesn't distinctly say that she has a disability, and also doesn't seem to suggest that she has one either.  Abelism is a form of discrimination that is distinctly targeted at people with disabilities, not just people who are different in some way.  In that context, I think the post is actually insensitive of people who actually have a disability.  My younger brother has Down Syndrome, so maybe I'm a bit more sensitive to the topic, but I think it's wrong to label someone as disabled if they don't actually have a disability, which seems to be the case here.

 

The Walking Dead wiki flatly says that Sarah appears to suffer from a mental disorder and lists multiple instances of panic attacks and shutting down. It may be, as you say, that Telltale didn't intend to make a disabled character, but that's certainly what it looks like they did from the evidence I see. Not to bring in anecdotes, but I know of no "sheltered" people who behave like Sarah unless there is also some kind of disability present.

 

Saying that a person with an anxiety disorder or autism spectrum is "annoying" and "useless" is exactly the sort of low-grade ableism that the gaming community is far too prone to perpetrate as it is. Unfortunate, but true.

[Twig]

Not to bring in anecdotes, but I know of no "sheltered" people who behave like Sarah unless there is also some kind of disability present.

But do you know of anyone who's living in the zombie apocalypse?

 

I know that's a loaded question, but it's also a legitimate one. I think it's totally realistic for a kid to be in permanent freak-out mode in the face of imminent disaster around every corner, especially with a coddling father trying to keep her away from it all, and failing at every turn.

[Gormongous]

But do you know of anyone who's living in the zombie apocalypse?

 

It's a fair question, but it's also one that could be used to excuse every single writing choice and in a way that totally absolves the creators from the perceived nature of their creations. In the end, I don't think it adds much to the discussion, but then neither do my anecdotes, so...

 

Besides, you could shelter the fuck out of Clementine in the first game and it didn't turn her into a catatonic mess. This is a discrete decision by Telltale and I think it's worth unpacking all its possible interpretations.

[JonCole]

A lot of the defense I've seen for the insensitivity has boiled down to "but look at the situation they're in!" I think it's an incredibly flimsy argument because guess what, Telltale constructed the exact situation that theoretically forced the issue so in either case they must shoulder the burden.

[neonrev]

If the game actually states her as having a condition (which, having not played ep2, I wouldn't know.), isn't it reasonable to assume that regardless of her immediate situation, she probably isn't on the medication she would be prescribed for a serious mental/anxiety issue, it having run out? I'm fitting of the (completely non-medical and entire social, the only one there is) definition of 'neurodivergent', and I don't know that I would be terribly able to deal with ordinary life without medication, much less even the very least of an actual breakdown of society and zombies. Is it ableist to portray disabilities as they are?

I haven't played this episode at all and have no idea of the story or anything, but so far it seems like game devs being so enclosed in their "design and player enjoyment" mode that they don't notice the social statements they're making in response to player response and 'good balance', and not like the studio is actually portraying an ableist position. I could be entirely off base, but portraying someone with actual anxiety issues as being a puddle in a zombie apocalypse? I once cried for almost an hour because my phone wouldn't turn on and my girlfriend was driving long distance. If being unable to answer phone calls can do that to me, I don't find it at all 'ableist' to portray a 'neurodivergent' (a term I could talk about for hours) character breaking down under extreme pressure.
It seems far more problematic to me that it's a young hispanic woman in this role than anything else, and the neurodivergent part is just topping on the "weak person" role.

Edit: "Just saying," is a stupid way to begin. I'm sorry world.

[Twig]

I'm just going to state now, since it was brought up again, that given the wide diversity of race and ethnicity found in The Walking Dead games, I don't think it's fair to hold it against Telltale that they killed a young Hispanic girl.The first game starred a black man, and the second game stars a half-black girl, and pretty much everyone's destined to die, so it's not unsurprising that another little kid died after Duck, regardless of race. This is all outside the context of the current argument regarding ableism, just to make that perfectly clear.

 

..........Of course, as I typed that I realized that 3/5 of the surviving members of Clem's group are white, so I guess I've convinced myself maybe it's not as great as it could be. But even so. EDIT: Oh, and Jane ran off on her own, so I guess she counts as a "survivor", as well.

[neonrev]

I only played a small amount of the first season, but my experience hadn't inclined me too feel so generous. But I might have had a particular plotline, I don't know.

I just don't see an "anxiety ridden person" being overcome by those circumstances as troublesome as young hispanic woman being the person filling that role. It's not that she was killed
(that's fairly irrelevant to me, everything plot-wise is plot and if a character is unneeded or unwanted its fair to eliminate it. A writer has to actually write a thing, no matter how it comes out, and like I said, I'm guessing its just the guy talking about the decision being a jerk, and the studio's decision was based on player feedback and the need to get the story where it needed to go, and not ablesism, or racism or whatever.)

I'm just more bothered in this particular instance, once brought to my attention, it is again a young woman of color being the person helpless in a situation of danger. I don't mean to say anything broadly about the studio in general or the person who wrote whatever, but it was a bigger thought in my mind than the ableism thing.

[SecretAsianMan]

It's a fair question, but it's also one that could be used to excuse every single writing choice and in a way that totally absolves the creators from the perceived nature of their creations. In the end, I don't think it adds much to the discussion, but then neither do my anecdotes, so...

 

Besides, you could shelter the fuck out of Clementine in the first game and it didn't turn her into a catatonic mess. This is a discrete decision by Telltale and I think it's worth unpacking all its possible interpretations.

 

Count me in the group that have not yet played TWD so I have a largely uniformed opinion, but could that not also be the intended design?  Maybe having a character act that way was on purpose to highlight and contrast with Clem since she is the main character, or so I understand.  Having everyone respond the same to a given situation is unrealistic and uninteresting so I can't reasonably blame anyone for not doing it.  But again I have no idea what their intentions were.  It could also have been designed as an easy out for all I know.

[Twig]

I'm just more bothered in this particular instance, once brought to my attention, it is again a young woman of color being the person helpless in a situation of danger.

I think that would be a fair complaint if she was the only person of color in the game, or if no people of color survived, or or or. That's not the case, though. I think it is actively Not Good to hold this against Telltale, regardless of the state of the entertainment industry as a whole. TWD is one of those few examples of actually being diverse, and they even largely manage to do it without being stereotypical about it.

[Gormongous]

Count me in the group that have not yet played TWD so I have a largely uniformed opinion, but could that not also be the intended design? Maybe having a character act that way was on purpose to highlight and contrast with Clem since she is the main character, or so I understand. Having everyone respond the same to a given situation is unrealistic and uninteresting so I can't reasonably blame anyone for not doing it. But again I have no idea what their intentions were. It could also have been designed as an easy out for all I know.

My honest feeling is that their intention was exactly as you say, but in trying to make the polar opposite of ol' reliable Clem, they accidentally made a little girl suffering from some spectrum of mental illness. It's something I feel they should have at least been more aware of, especially considering the amount of hate she got for the traits they gave her.

[SecretAsianMan]

My honest feeling is that their intention was exactly as you say, but in trying to make the polar opposite of ol' reliable Clem, they accidentally made a little girl suffering from some spectrum of mental illness. It's something I feel they should have at least been more aware of, especially considering the amount of hate she got for the traits they gave her.

 

That's a fair position and one I'd probably agree with if I knew more about the game than what the discussion so far has covered.  I'm always hesitant to take the "they should have been aware of it" stance though, because you can't reasonably be aware of every possible view and how everyone will react.  I do agree that they should own up to what they did do though.  I don't think it's necessarily wrong to unintentionally do a thing that could offend someone, but it is wrong to deny someone that view or reject the notion that's what it means.  I'm going to bring out my old standby statement of "intent and outcome don't always match up".

[neonrev]

I'm unclear on whether or not she is supposed to be or is stated to be actually neurodivergent or whatever. If its a matter of people making their own assumptions and not Telltale's intent and then that becoming 'canon' then I agree with superasianman and gormongous I think. If not, then I'm just not convinced it's really an issue with that part of the character. 

I'm also not blaming or really saying anything about telltale in general at all. I've only played a small part of the first season because it was on sale at some point, and all I know is my couple of hours with it. I can only talk at all about this event in particular, and in this case the helpless person being who she is bothers me more than any possible mental condition, as described. For me it was a "Oh, of course she's young and not white." sort of disappointment, even in light of Clem. I don't have the same sort of connection to clem or the game as a lot of other people, I'm not saying anything about the work in total or the people who made it.  Also just to be clear.

[Twig]

I guess I see where you're coming from, and I apologize for falsely accusing you of such a thing. I just hate when we finally have an example of a lot of things done right and instead of celebrating it, we find ways to pick it apart and get angry. I'm not saying that's exactly what you were doing, but it's a trend I see a lot of and it really rubs me the wrong way, even if it's only being done just a little tiny bit.