Star Wars VII - Open spoilers

[dium]

Even within the original trilogy I thought Yoda was kind of full of it.

 

YES. "Do or do not, there is no try" is such bullshit, even in context.

[feelthedarkness]

it was a long long time ago. no participation trophies. 

[Henroid]

Maybe Han will shoot second.

You just made me realize, there's definitely going to be a, "I always shoot first" type line from Han in this.

[Dewar]

Even within the original trilogy I thought Yoda was kind of full of it.  When he's trying to get Luke to lift his X-wing out of the swamp and Luke says its too big, Yoda tells him that size isn't relevant.  Yet when Yoda does it, he clearly has to stop and concentrate, the same way he does when saving Anakin and Obi-wan during the Dooku fight.  I suppose you could argue his age, but then that shouldn't really matter either. 

 

Like I keep saying, as imaginative as the Star Wars universe is in general, I find their use of the Force to be extremely limiting compared to all the stuff they say it can do.

 

I noticed that same thing this weekend watching the original movies in the original format this weekend He also looks exhausted after.

 

I guess that says something about Jim Henson Frank Oz.

[dartmonkey]

I thought that fight was terrible, especially the way Dooku makes his escape.  All it showed me is just how bad everyone in Star Wars really is at using the Force.  Yes, Yoda had to keep the ceiling from falling on Anakin and Obi-wan, but rather than try and stop it dead like he did, he should have just pushed it slightly and changed the trajectory.  Or pulled Anakin and Obi-wan out of the way.  He basically did the least efficient thing possible and let Dooku escape.

I don't remember thinking about it so much - all I remember was 'Eyy, it's Yoda! But Yoda's not going to fight...is he? No...hang on, he's...he's OMG HE JUST FORCE-PULLED A LIGHTSABER FROM HIS POCKET WTF!!!' *mouth open for 30 seconds*

 

SOMEHOW, I didn't know it was coming. Maybe I'd just seen hundreds of faceless droids and clones and got carried away when a character I actually knew and liked turned up. It certainly wasn't a cerebral analysis, but I still think the way that's set up and how he's animated in those 30 seconds is very well done.

 

I understand what you're saying, and it's a shame that Yoda 'lets' Dooku escape because plot. Maybe I'm not going in deep enough, but it never really bothered me. It's a contrivance and it can be torn apart but they exist in all films. In fact, if we go that way, I kind of enjoy the whiff of hypocrisy. The Jedi are monks constantly striving to achieve an impossible Earthly (Galactic?) serenity. It's hard bloody work being 'good'! If Yoda's sermons contradict themselves, doesn't that make them more interesting? Isn't it an impossible goal? Obi-Wan is shown through the prequels to be questioning and a bit cavalier and but he's still a badass Jedi. If Yoda's the archetype, I kind of like the fact that he's bullshitting to get results. Luke needed some hard lessons, fast. "Do or do not, there is no try" = "We haven't got time for this BS, you're 15 years too old, it's now or never. Chop-fucking-chop."

 

I'd be interested to see a Sith who wasn't a cackling pantomime villain. A character who gave into their whims and desires, but whose whims weren't to slaughter innocents by the thousand.

[Henroid]

The problem with Star Wars characters is that they are very different in the original trilogy vs. the new trilogy. One of the highlight points of Empire Strikes Back was showing that there was more to The Force as a thing to use / religion to follow (in the universe of Star Wars) than choking bitches and cutting shit with lightsabers. Luke arrives on Dagobah and tells Yoda (before knowing it's Yoda) that he is searching for "a great warrior." It's an assumption Luke has about what it means to be a Jedi, based on his limited experience with Obi-Wan. Who had to give Luke a very practical "here I can prove it's real" type training course. Which is why Yoda and Obi-Wan debate training Luke further being a risk.

 

Part of the point is Yoda teaching Luke properly. All the tasks about physical training with some Force-drawing for stamina / endurance, or lifting stones and doing crazy hand stands - it's all smoke and mirrors to help gain attunement to the Force. To make that connection, the spiritual bond if you will. The physical shit is just training wheels - this is why even Darth Vader spends time meditating. He's above doing the silly shit, he can reach out by having a moment of calm (or rage harnassing, though I choose to believe Vader having a meditation chamber was time for him to contemplate his regret and plan vengeance on the Emperor - if he ever could).

 

It's funny how Luke misses out on Obi-Wan displaying true Jedi behavior when he just stands there waiting to take the death hit from Vader. But at least he seems to understand it when he takes the plunge on Cloud City because fuck the Dark Side.

 

Going back to the new trilogy, Lucas seemed to had forgotten where the original trilogy lead the Force and what it meant to be a Jedi. He got confused by needing to show the Jedi in their prime as a regular part of galactic society. Yoda declared in the OT that the Jedi only learn to fight for the sake of defense, and he generally has a spiteful attitude toward combat at all. And then in the NT he's actually going, "Oh hey I'll go fight this dude, you fight THAT dude." It was a complete reversal of character. But again, it had shit all to do with any sort of clever writing or character concept of hypocrisy or imperfection.

 

It was just Lucas being a pandering idiot.

[Griddlelol]

You just made me realize, there's definitely going to be a, "I always shoot first" type line from Han in this.

 

* 

 

I'm also expecting some sort of variation of "Don't get cocky, kid."

[SecretAsianMan]

The physical shit is just training wheels - this is why even Darth Vader spends time meditating. He's above doing the silly shit, he can reach out by having a moment of calm (or rage harnassing, though I choose to believe Vader having a meditation chamber was time for him to contemplate his regret and plan vengeance on the Emperor - if he ever could).

 

I remember a thing from Shadows of the Empire (the only book I ever read completely) where Vader is in his eggshell chamber doing his Force exercises.  He harnesses his rage and hatred to fill his body with the Force and for a while breathes with his own lungs instead of his respirator.  But then he thinks of his son for a brief moment and his hate bubble gets popped.  Its not the first time he's done this exercise, I think he remarks that this session was the longest one to date, which would mean its a regular activity.  His ultimate goal was to ditch all the gear he's forced to wear.

 

Of course none of that happened now.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, and it's a shame that Yoda 'lets' Dooku escape because plot. Maybe I'm not going in deep enough, but it never really bothered me. It's a contrivance and it can be torn apart but they exist in all films. In fact, if we go that way, I kind of enjoy the whiff of hypocrisy. The Jedi are monks constantly striving to achieve an impossible Earthly (Galactic?) serenity. It's hard bloody work being 'good'! If Yoda's sermons contradict themselves, doesn't that make them more interesting? Isn't it an impossible goal? Obi-Wan is shown through the prequels to be questioning and a bit cavalier and but he's still a badass Jedi. If Yoda's the archetype, I kind of like the fact that he's bullshitting to get results. Luke needed some hard lessons, fast. "Do or do not, there is no try" = "We haven't got time for this BS, you're 15 years too old, it's now or never. Chop-fucking-chop.

 

It's a complete contrivance and I fully recognize the futility in applying logic to things like Star Wars.  But still, I can't shut of that part of my brain so that's what I thought of when I saw those scenes.

[Jake]

*

I'm also expecting some sort of variation of "Don't get cocky, kid."

Han: I love you

Leia: I know

Han dies

[dartmonkey]

I desperately wanted to love Attack of the Clones, but it's such a mess. The droid factory epitomises my problems with the prequels. Vacuous CG 'excitement'. Phantom Menace had the kernel of a good film somewhere in there, there were lots of things I liked about Revenge, but Attack is pretty dire, save for the Tuskan massacre (well, and the Yoda fight .)

 

Going back to the new trilogy, Lucas seemed to had forgotten where the original trilogy lead the Force and what it meant to be a Jedi. He got confused by needing to show the Jedi in their prime as a regular part of galactic society. Yoda declared in the OT that the Jedi only learn to fight for the sake of defense, and he generally has a spiteful attitude toward combat at all. And then in the NT he's actually going, "Oh hey I'll go fight this dude, you fight THAT dude." It was a complete reversal of character. But again, it had shit all to do with any sort of clever writing or character concept of hypocrisy or imperfection.

 

It was just Lucas being a pandering idiot.

 

I don't disagree, but should Yoda (the best the Jedi have) just throw up his hands and watch Palpatine massacre innocents and destroy everything? Does he not fight to defend himself and his people?

 

I don't know. I don't disagree with you, and it could certainly have been written better, but I think the original trilogy gets a lot of credit that it doesn't necessarily deserve. If Lucas could have done so, I think he'd have had Yoda lightsaber sparring with Luke on Dagobah. Budget tied him down and made it tight and personal. CG put an end to it.

 

I think Han might also have a negative gut sensation to something at some point.

[melmer]

All I know is that my gut says maybe

[Bjorn]

I don't disagree, but should Yoda (the best the Jedi have) just throw up his hands and watch Palpatine massacre innocents and destroy everything? Does he not fight to defend himself and his people?

 

Isn't he more interesting if he doesn't?  I always got a Ghandi type vibe from Yoda.  A pacifist Jedi master is far more interesting than a ninja.  The Jedi are overflowing with ninjas, but they are surprisingly lacking patient wisdom. 

[SecretAsianMan]

I'd have been much more interested if Yoda fought without being physical.  Yoda is the oldest and wisest of the Jedi, but the strongest in terms of combat ability was Sam Jackson... I mean Mace Windu*.  He would have killed the Emperor if not for Anakin's intervention.  Instead I saw Yoda and Palpatine throw the Senate at each other.

 

*I'm tempted to use this as a lame segue into lightsaber combat forms but I've already put way too much dorky stuff in this thread.

[Henroid]

If Lucas could have done so, I think he'd have had Yoda lightsaber sparring with Luke on Dagobah. Budget tied him down and made it tight and personal. CG put an end to it.

Lucas stepped back when Empire was made and let someone else direct it. Hence it being awesome. It's really a lesson that sometimes someone will have a great idea, but it's better for other people to execute that idea (or expand on it).

 

As for how Yoda would've confronted the Emperor, he would've used negotiation and politics. Or should've I guess. I mean really, that's how the Emperor came to power, so Yoda could've been like "I'd like to request an audience with the Senate and Chancellor." Make his case, repeatedly if need be. And hey maybe he would've sat on the steps of the Jedi temple, douse himself in Corellian gasoline, and light himself on fire. All this before "Order 66" of course. A protest against the Chancellor's increasing power.

 

For all the talk about the Jedi being diplomatic mediators and such, Lucas never showed that. Instead it was, "And then they picked up their lightsabers and went to war and tried to handle shit in the dark."

[SecretAsianMan]

Lucas stepped back when Empire was made and let someone else direct it. Hence it being awesome. It's really a lesson that sometimes someone will have a great idea, but it's better for other people to execute that idea (or expand on it).

 

As for how Yoda would've confronted the Emperor, he would've used negotiation and politics. Or should've I guess. I mean really, that's how the Emperor came to power, so Yoda could've been like "I'd like to request an audience with the Senate and Chancellor." Make his case, repeatedly if need be. And hey maybe he would've sat on the steps of the Jedi temple, douse himself in Corellian gasoline, and light himself on fire. All this before "Order 66" of course. A protest against the Chancellor's increasing power.

 

For all the talk about the Jedi being diplomatic mediators and such, Lucas never showed that. Instead it was, "And then they picked up their lightsabers and went to war and tried to handle shit in the dark."

 

If Yoda really were that wise, that's exactly what he should have done.  The Jedi's attempt to kill him was exactly what Palpatine needed to finish his plan.  It allowed him to execute Order 66, which basically said that should the Jedi act against the interests of the Republic then the clone troopers would remove them from command by lethal force.  And having several Jedi masters march into his office and attack him sure as heck seems like that's the case.  Order 66 wasn't some kind of Sith trick that required the Dark Side to use, it was a legislative order.  The order was deliberately obfuscated by burying it within other procedures so that no one would notice it.  The Jedi were defeated by politics.

[Gormongous]

If Yoda really were that wise, that's exactly what he should have done.  The Jedi's attempt to kill him was exactly what Palpatine needed to finish his plan.  It allowed him to execute Order 66, which basically said that should the Jedi act against the interests of the Republic then the clone troopers would remove them from command by lethal force.  And having several Jedi masters march into his office and attack him sure as heck seems like that's the case.  Order 66 wasn't some kind of Sith trick that required the Dark Side to use, it was a legislative order.  The order was deliberately obfuscated by burying it within other procedures so that no one would notice it.  The Jedi were defeated by politics.

 

I feel like that might have resulted from Lucas' alternate interpretation of Yoda's character. Watching the original triology, we assume that the whole "wars not make one great" has come to Yoda gradually after centuries of life, but apparently it comes from the last fifty years, when he tried and failed to stage a coup, even though Yoda is presented as being equally wise as when he later trains Luke. It all goes back to Lucas' obsession in the prequels with linking every character, event, and motivation to something else from the original trilogy, which is why Chewbacca is Yoda's liaison on Kashyyyk instead of another one of literally millions of Wookies.

[dartmonkey]

As for how Yoda would've confronted the Emperor, he would've used negotiation and politics. Or should've I guess. I mean really, that's how the Emperor came to power, so Yoda could've been like "I'd like to request an audience with the Senate and Chancellor." Make his case, repeatedly if need be. And hey maybe he would've sat on the steps of the Jedi temple, douse himself in Corellian gasoline, and light himself on fire. All this before "Order 66" of course. A protest against the Chancellor's increasing power.

 

For all the talk about the Jedi being diplomatic mediators and such, Lucas never showed that. Instead it was, "And then they picked up their lightsabers and went to war and tried to handle shit in the dark."

 

Isn't he more interesting if he doesn't?  I always got a Ghandi type vibe from Yoda.  A pacifist Jedi master is far more interesting than a ninja.  The Jedi are overflowing with ninjas, but they are surprisingly lacking patient wisdom. 

 

It's conceptually interesting, definitely. But I think it's important to remember the Saturday morning serial roots here. The prequels are full of turgid politics and diplomacy and blockades and sanctions, etc. I think that could have been written in an engaging way but Yoda seeking conference with the senate? Passive protests? This is Star Wars. It's inclusive, but it revolves around conflict. Kids are drawn to it because lightsabers are damn cool.

 

I'm rewatching Star Trek TNG in HD (actually, I must post in that thread) and these themes would be right at home there, but self-immolation on the steps of the senate isn't how I would want to see Yoda combat the rise of the Empire.

 

 

I'm tempted to use this as a lame segue into lightsaber combat forms but I've already put way too much dorky stuff in this thread.

I fell down a Wookiepedia hole on this subject ages ago. I remember that Obi-Wan's style was ice to Anakin's fire which meant they would forever be locked in a stalemate. But, being a kid, Anakin got cocky (boom!)

[Henroid]

Then the answer is to have Yoda present as an advisor but not the guy to go to in order to have shit done.

[Gormongous]

It's conceptually interesting, definitely. But I think it's important to remember the Saturday morning serial roots here. The prequels are full of turgid politics and diplomacy and blockades and sanctions, etc. I think that could have been written in an engaging way but Yoda seeking conference with the senate? Passive protests? This is Star Wars. It's inclusive, but it revolves around conflict. Kids are drawn to it because lightsabers are damn cool.

 

I'm rewatching Star Trek TNG in HD (actually, I must post in that thread) and these themes would be right at home there, but self-immolation on the steps of the senate isn't how I would want to see Yoda combat the rise of the Empire.

 

I mean, the excess of political theatre in the prequels is rightly criticized, but they're more a problem because Lucas doesn't really have an understanding of how to write and stage interesting political action, rather than space politics being innately boring. He repeatedly introduces stuff like the blockade in The Phantom Menace, the Clone Wars in Attack of the Clones, and Palpatine's dictatorship in Revenge of the Sith, all superficially dire, but there's never any effort to play out the consequences of those things. They're just stand-ins for generically bad stuff that requires heroic action, and the most effort Lucas puts into realizing them is having different characters tell us over and over that they're bad. Remember how the Clone Wars lasted three years and yet Obi-Wan and Anakin get off the ship from the Outer Rim like it's been a week-long vacation? That's why the politics are boring in the prequels. They have absolutely no consequence besides being literally just excuses for other shit to happen, yet Lucas devotes dozens of minutes in every movie to people walking down halls and talking about how bad they are.

 

And, on a side note, Revenge of the Sith has gratuitous child murder by implication and a pregnant woman getting choked and thrown around. Self-immolation isn't that much heavier.

[dartmonkey]

Master Yoda, Conflict Consultant.

 

Did Yoda have any other given names in EU?

[BigJKO]

If Yoda doing politics would've been so boring, maybe they shouldn't have devoted so many minutes to Jar-Jar doing politics.

[SecretAsianMan]

It's conceptually interesting, definitely. But I think it's important to remember the Saturday morning serial roots here. The prequels are full of turgid politics and diplomacy and blockades and sanctions, etc. I think that could have been written in an engaging way but Yoda seeking conference with the senate? Passive protests? This is Star Wars. It's inclusive, but it revolves around conflict. Kids are drawn to it because lightsabers are damn cool.

 

At the end of the day, I think this is the real reason.  I'll agree with what Gormongous said about Lucas being bad at writing interesting space politics, but Star Wars is supposed to be a summer popcorn flick.  Not that you can't have a movie that's both interesting to watch and interesting to think about, but given the choice between the two it's not hard to imagine why Star Wars is the way it is.

 

Also I bet if Yoda was to self-immolate, it would be with some weird Force trick.

[Gormongous]

Master Yoda, Conflict Consultant.

 

Did Yoda have any other given names in EU?

 

It's hard to back up now, because Wookieepedia has purged a lot of the C and S canon material since the big statement, but I'm almost certain that one of the novels had a Holocron that remembered Yoda and implied that his name, like that of Thrawn, was a nickname for a secret or unpronounceable name. 

[Henroid]

Wookiepedia is removing content? Shouldn't they be conserving it but noting it's from the old-long-ago?

 

Edit - I bet they have their article on breasts still.

[Gormongous]

Wookiepedia is removing content? Shouldn't they be conserving it but noting it's from the old-long-ago?

 

Edit - I bet they have their article on breasts still.

 

They tend to remove C (books and comics) and S (most games) canon when it "directly conflicts" with newer or higher canon, and some editors seem to be taking a broader view of the term "conflict." It's supposed to be bumped down to the bottom of the article, under a separate heading, but it's been removed completely in some articles, at least to my eyes.