Mington

Destiny

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I think console games are absolutely inferior for aiming. Can't beat the procession of a mouse. But I've always had a much better time with character movement on consoles. With WASD there is only "go" or "not go." At least on a controller you can move with some degree of control over your character's momentum. I find sniping in games like CS or TF2 impossible, because the character always moves like a spaz. 

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Inferior controls in terms of accuracy, I agree. I straight up prefer using a controller though. You can still tell the difference between a good player and a bad player in console PvP. I know that if I haven't touched Destiny for a couple of weeks, I'll die instantly in PvP, but if I've been playing constantly, I get shit loads of kills. 

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I don't think anyone is arguing that using a controller doesn't take skill; quite the opposite if anything.

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I've heard that idea put forward multiple times in other forums, I didn't mean to attribute it to anyone here. Generally along the lines of "How can it be competitive if there's autoaim?"

 

Without the obvious tactics are more than just aiming, shooting with a controller does take skill. 

 

Who am I arguing with? 

 

In the end I just like holding a controller. It feels way more natural. 

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I get a cramp from the ps4 controller when I play Destiny. I think it's because I'm using the left trigger more than any game.

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If anything, auto aim feels like it makes it harder to be good. I don't always want to aim at the first enemy my reticle passes over, which means I then have to fight it to get past that enemy.

Well I don't know if Destiny feels that way and I never will, since the idea of doing pvp with this set up sounds laughable uncomfortable to me. Wish I could just plug on a mouse and keyboard. I'd basically never take damage, though, so they'd have to rebalance the game...

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Yeah the auto-aim can be annoying. I'm always disappointed with PvP because I want my Titan to be a melee god. I know it's an FPS, but I just wanna punch stuff.

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I find sniping in games like CS or TF2 impossible, because the character always moves like a spaz. 

I don't know about CS, but this is completely untrue for TF2. Once you zoom in you move at a snail's pace.

 

Also TF2 is about movement just as much, if not more, as it's about shooting, which is why you always move fast. Moving slow in that game is a bad idea. There's a crouch button to slow you down but you never use it unless you see a sniper aiming at you and you're trying to mindgame (or unless you're rocket/sticky jumping). But lots of other games have walk or crouch buttons or even prone modes.

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I honestly don't think I've seen anything quite like this before where a game is so massively popular and clearly enjoyed by a ton of people but that also has a massive contingent of haters that somehow manages to completely dominate any discussion of the game outside of dedicated Destiny fan sites. I swear, I went through that comment section in the Polygon article and of the 50 some-odd comments, probably at least 90% of them were negative. It's palpable enough that even I'm starting to wonder if I'm somehow under a (space) wizard's spell that makes it impossible for me to truly appreciate the severity of the atrocities that Bungie has committed with this game.

I sank a lot of hours into Destiny upon release but haven't switched it on since January. If you enjoy the game then cool, I'm glad it's giving people fun. However, my view is that it's one of the worst, most cynical, thoughtless, repetitive games I have ever played. I kept expecting to stumble upon the "fun" or point of the game but it never happened. Actually, it's making me angry now just thinking about the game, so I'll stop. It's kinda sad how moribund and slipshod Bungie have become. Oh well.

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This is a pretty strange discussion, I don't really know how to parse it.

 

Autoaim barely exists in PvP, several mechanics work differently between PvP and PvE. Aim assist certainly exists in PvP, but again is completely up to player considering every weapon has different aim assist levels and can be equipped with perks that increase or decrease that value. Many sniper players (including myself) favor high aim assist rifles, because AA increases the hitbox for the enemy head. However, it does add some level of auto-aim as well; a good opponent can tactically drag your reticle by running across it quickly, for instance. As a result, there is a distinct class of PvP sniper that uses extremely low aim assist weapons with perks that actually detract from that value. It's a real give-take situation that needs to be experimented with by each player.

 

My point here is that while the whole auto-aim/aim assist mechanic is somewhat unique to and possibly detracts from console shooters, Destiny's community has actually integrated the observance of these values into the meta-game. While I think it's fair to say that you prefer the precision of PC/M+k, the fact that Destiny allows what could be a distinct hindrance to become a matter of tactics seems brilliant to me.

 

As an aside, while I intellectually accept that M+K is more accurate than controller I haven't actually observed that to be true in my own gameplay. I played Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3 on PC and I maintained a fairly even kill-death ratio of 1.5. Since then, I have played Call of Duty: BLOPS2 and AW as well as Destiny on console and I have maintained the same kdr. Not that kdr is a perfect indicator of accuracy, I just think that I'm equally effective between the two setups regardless of whatever accuracy/auto-aim stuff might be going on. I don't think it's impossible to compensate for, mentally.

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I haven't actually observed that to be true in my own gameplay.

I think that's because when you jump back and forth, you're being matched up against other players who are the same. The playing field is the same for everyone in the game. Everyone has to suffer the same inadequacies when playing with a controller, and everyone has the potential to overcome those inadequacies. KDR isn't really a valid measurement. You'd have to build, I dunno, a shooting range/obstacle course kind of thing and then compare your best times with a kb+m to your best times with a controller. Even then, the auto-aim/aim-assist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it will help in compensating. 

 

But none of that really matters to me. What matters to me is feel, and controllers just feel fucking awful to me in comparison to actually being able to aim on my own without the game helping me out.

 

Also, just for fun, I've seen examples of, for example, people playing TF2 with a controller on PC and dominating, but watching the way they play, I can guarantee I would have absolutely destroyed them. It's not because I'm amazing at FPS, far from it, it's just because they were playing on servers full of newbies to the game in general and they'd had lots of practice with a controller and were already familiar with the game.

 

 

I get a cramp from the ps4 controller when I play Destiny. I think it's because I'm using the left trigger more than any game.

 
I was having this problem with a PS3 controller while playing Ratchet & Clank (triggers are used for strafing, which is really important in those games!). It's really uncomfortable. I don't know why controllers are designed with the triggers placed there. Put it much lower on the back, please!

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I think that's because when you jump back and forth, you're being matched up against other players who are the same. The playing field is the same for everyone in the game. Everyone has to suffer the same inadequacies when playing with a controller, and everyone has the potential to overcome those inadequacies. KDR isn't really a valid measurement. You'd have to build, I dunno, a shooting range/obstacle course kind of thing and then compare your best times with a kb+m to your best times with a controller. Even then, the auto-aim/aim-assist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it will help in compensating. 

 

I think we're in fervent agreement. I'm not saying that kdr is a direct comparative factor between the two control methods. I'm saying it's a subjective measure of my performance in both games and I'm observing that my performance is adequate if not pretty good regardless of whatever control method I have to adapt to.

 

I totally sympathize with not liking the feel and I'm convinced that it's sufficient reason to not want to play a game on a particular platform. It's the same reason that I wouldn't dream of playing a game like Killzone competitively - it feels like garbage to me.

 

The only thing I take some kind of issue with you suggesting (maybe I'm misinterpreting you) that K+M would definitively defeat controller regardless of skill level. There are tactics that govern performance more than any kind of accuracy. A player with good situational awareness, positioning, map knowledge, familiarity with particular weapons and how they fire, etc playing with a controller would have distinct advantage over someone without those things that just happens to have a more accuracy control method.

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I sank a lot of hours into Destiny upon release but haven't switched it on since January. If you enjoy the game then cool, I'm glad it's giving people fun. However, my view is that it's one of the worst, most cynical, thoughtless, repetitive games I have ever played. I kept expecting to stumble upon the "fun" or point of the game but it never happened. Actually, it's making me angry now just thinking about the game, so I'll stop. It's kinda sad how moribund and slipshod Bungie have become. Oh well.

 

Fascinating.

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If you take two players of equal knowledge level and equal skill level on their respective control scheme, I don't think it's at all deniable that a m+kb player would win every time.

 

In my provided example, the TF2 player had the advantage, as you said. But the second I play against that person, I'll win, because I have all their knowledge AND I have the control scheme that allows for more accuracy and precision. And actually, now that I think about it, I have a strict mechanical advantage in things like rocket jumping, too, because in order to efficiently rocket jump, you have to be able to change your vertical aim very, very, very quickly. Either the controller player has extremely sensitive vertical movement, which will make it harder to aim in general, or they'll have normal vertical movement sensitivity, which will make it harder to rocket jump.

 

They might be on the same playing field as a heavy, though. Or medic.

 

(All that said, this is an ages old argument, and my intent was never to bring this up, it just sort of naturally happened by responding to inquiries regarding my frustrations! Feel free to let it die. I have no bone to pick.)

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If you take two players of equal knowledge level and equal skill level on their respective control scheme, I don't think it's at all deniable that a m+kb player would win every time.

 

In my provided example, the TF2 player had the advantage, as you said. But the second I play against that person, I'll win, because I have all their knowledge AND I have the control scheme that allows for more accuracy and precision.

 

Now what kind of mouse are we talking about here? Trackball? Laser? Mario Paint mouse?

 

I'll reiterate what I've said before. If they could make a controller that replaced the right thumbstick with a trackball, this debate would be over.

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Now what kind of mouse are we talking about here? Trackball? Laser? Mario Paint mouse?

 

I'll reiterate what I've said before. If they could make a controller that replaced the right thumbstick with a trackball, this debate would be over.

I don't agree with that at all. Trackballs are cumbersome and loose. Mice are incredibly precise and deliberate.

 

And that's not even taking into account the fancy gaming mice, which have tons of weird-ass features to make everything feel right for different situations, but I've intentionally not brought them up until now for a reason. That's an extreme example.

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I've known a few people that have switched to trackballs and swear up and down that they are better and more precise than standard mice. Personally, I'm not very good at FPS's with any kb+m setup. I feel like I can't get precise enough movements with my wrist and hand controlling the looking movements and I have a really hard time finding my perfect DPI sweet spot. I'm almost always either under or over aiming and then my hand is sometimes resting halfway off the mouse pad and it feels weird.

 

A controller feels just right to me though. I've had almost 20 years of training now on how to look around using my thumb on an analog stick and I think it will always feel like the more natural way to control looking for me. 

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I've known a couple people like that, too, and some of them were better than me at the games we played and, well, it didn't end well. For them. Purely anecdotal of course.

 

Trackballs are definitely better for your wrist, though!

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Anyway this is a dumb argument and controls aside - which, yes, I do think I can learn to tolerate, even if in my head there will always be that little voice - I like the game. I think I'm probably going to get it! You better all play with me. ):

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Anyway this is a dumb argument and controls aside - which, yes, I do think I can learn to tolerate, even if in my head there will always be that little voice - I like the game. I think I'm probably going to get it! You better all play with me. ):

 

We will, but only if you never mention gamepads! ;)

 

How has everyone found Skolas this week? Last week was another Small Arms/Lightswitch week, which I've found to be a really awful set of modifiers for doing that fight. This week it's Catapult and Angry, which are mostly inoffensive as long as you take cover more to deal with the lack of flinching on enemies. I tried it as a Bladedancer this time for the stealth, which made a huge difference for getting the mines. As long as I wasn't expected to grab the essence I could run across the arena and dismantle the far one on my own. Arc Blade is a pretty crap super for that fight though, so next time I'm going to use Khepri's Sting since it gives the crouch stealth (only reason I didn't use it this time is because I didn't have any legendary helmets ascended to replace my exotic helmet). If you haven't done Skolas at all yet then this is a really good week to try.

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We will, but only if you never mention gamepads! ;)

 

How has everyone found Skolas this week? Last week was another Small Arms/Lightswitch week, which I've found to be a really awful set of modifiers for doing that fight. This week it's Catapult and Angry, which are mostly inoffensive as long as you take cover more to deal with the lack of flinching on enemies. I tried it as a Bladedancer this time for the stealth, which made a huge difference for getting the mines. As long as I wasn't expected to grab the essence I could run across the arena and dismantle the far one on my own. Arc Blade is a pretty crap super for that fight though, so next time I'm going to use Khepri's Sting since it gives the crouch stealth (only reason I didn't use it this time is because I didn't have any legendary helmets ascended to replace my exotic helmet). If you haven't done Skolas at all yet then this is a really good week to try.

 

I need to knock out a sub-35 PoE first so I can get past the first step on the Elder Cipher (didn't play at all last week). I'd rather not squander the progress I could get from a Skolas kill. I'm not a fan of small arms in general. I want to use all of my guns!

 

Oh! I've been trying out bumper-jumper my last few play sessions. Aside from popping off my super on accident now and then (it's remapped to x), I kinda like it! It will take a while to rework that muscle memory though...

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Sorry to double post, but would it be weird if I were to put up a Crota normal mode/hard mode game for Saturday evening? I feel kind of weird creating a game for a raid I've never run before.

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