Idle Thumbs 66: It's Broadcast Jones!

[Jake]

Broadcast Jones is my father.

Idle Thumbs 66: It's Broadcast Jones!

Please firmly affix your paperboard keyboard overlay (included) for an easy overview of all options made available during this podcast. Q: Witness Chris experience Dota 2 for the first time, W: Discover which games secretly co-exist in the Silent Scope universe, A: Wrestle with what makes games exciting as a medium, S: Toggle shield configuration (forward, rear, or balanced).

Games Discussed: Fez, Dota 2, Driver: San Francisco, Skate, Demon Souls, Burnout Paradise, Journey

Direct episode download.

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[Roswell47]

I still find it super weird that the podcast is actually back. In some ways it feels like it never left.

[George B]

end of fast for podblasted cast masters

[barichnikov]

If you want a true WIZARD in dota2, you might want to check Invoker, when you've played a few more hundred hours. He's one of the most complex heroes in the game, but he's closer to the WIZARD idea than Warlock!

Edit: (posting as I'm listening to the cast) Invoker has that thing like manually inputting things in the keypad. He has 3 different magic orbs that he spawns around him, and depending on the orbs that gravitate him at the moment, he can "invoke" 10 different spells. It's pretty hardcore. You basically can change them on the fly, which puts the skill ceiling SUPER HIGH for this hero. Pros are pretty insane to watch play him.

[gregbrown]

Oh man, I remember making a Command & Conquer site on Geocities with cropped photos of each unit, and going through all the upcoming Tiberian Sun screenshots and cropping out each unit and having a description next to it and it all being in wonderful, wonderful <TABLE>s.

The conversation about the Civ V reference card just caused some serious proustian flashbacks.

[K-bohls!]

I haven't listened yet but am excited to see Driver: San Francisco make an appearance in this cast. I recently picked it up from the Steam Sale and just finished it up, it is a very impressive game. The story is the most notable part and is really enjoyable. It is handled in a smart way throughout the course of the game with the last few chapters being a really great payoff. I do feel that the execution is hampered by subpar dialog and voice acting however. The gameplay is also pretty good, one would expect races + cop chases for ~10 hours but Driver: SF takes those and tweaks some variables (such as leading cops to a certain location, making sure two certain cars get 1st and 2nd in a race) + adds new gameplay modes. It only felt dull during extended play sessions. Over all it would, and should, have a cult following but I feel Ubi-soft's DRM killed most potential for that.

Plus muscle cars are cool.

[Henroid]

This discussion about self-awareness of being overwhelmed is the best thing,

[Henroid]

Sean should have checked to see if the pigeon was secretly the treasure goblin.

[dibs]

Oh man, I play dota 2 with some irish people and 2 of us play a lot together. The other guy is a lot better than me, which didn't caus problems for a while. I had a string of wins recently however, which seems to have put my MMR up a bit, and now mine and the other guys MMR combined push us into the High skill bracket. I'm gone from a 8 win streak to getting destroyed 2/18. All my might has been stripped from me. I feel for you guys getting glimpses of greatness, but beware it comes and goes!

[I_smell]

I support the idea of Idle Thumbs Origins and Idle Thumbs Rising. Maybe this newest one could be Idle Thumbs Revengeance?

...Ugh, I take that back. You were right.

[pabosher]

I was hoping for The Idle Thumbs Video Game Podcast Episode One.

[OJR]

Great casting as always, but I couldn't agree less with the interpretations put forward of Driver San Francisco. I thought it was so much more ethical than most games, with it being actually impossible to kill anyone. The game goes out of the way to make it clear that everyone gets out of every crash just fine. Oh except Tanner himself, the only guy in the game injured in a car crash. Plus the story doesn't take itself at all seriously and the tone is light and fun all the way though, like a daytime cop show. And Reflections suck at anything that isn't awesome open world driving so they just did awesome open world driving. Trying to tone down the violence, trying a fresh aesthetic and working to a dev team's strengths, plus really innovative multiplayer? Shouldn't we be celebrating all that?!

[Merus]

I am excited for more of Sean's Irish stories. I could possibly do less of Chris' concerning obsession with San Francisco stories, though.

I suspect that in a few years people will react with surprise that I've never played a lords management game and don't intend to, and my explanation that I'm really not fond of having to lose for hours before I start having fun won't really wash.

[youmeyou]

I support any open world driving game that does nag me to participate in pointless boring facsimiles of real life boring activities. (I'm looking at you GTA 4!)

I also bought Driver SF during the steam sale so I'll see how I fall on the moral judgement side. Do they pull a Die Hard 3 and have people jump out of your way with insane reflexes thus making it impossible to run anyone over accidentally?

[Chris]

Great casting as always, but I couldn't agree less with the interpretations put forward of Driver San Francisco. I thought it was so much more ethical than most games, with it being actually impossible to kill anyone. The game goes out of the way to make it clear that everyone gets out of every crash just fine.

I may have missed an explanation of this or something, but how can that be the case? With so many horrific car crashes happening all the time, it's pretty hard for me to swallow that everyone is always fine after them. Also, using that logic, couldn't you just put a disclaimer on any game ever and say "Despite the actions this game's protagonist takes, everybody is fine."?

Oh except Tanner himself, the only guy in the game injured in a car crash. Plus the story doesn't take itself at all seriously and the tone is light and fun all the way though, like a daytime cop show. And Reflections suck at anything that isn't awesome open world driving so they just did awesome open world driving. Trying to tone down the violence, trying a fresh aesthetic and working to a dev team's strengths, plus really innovative multiplayer? Shouldn't we be celebrating all that?!

I didn't play the multiplayer so I can't comment on that. The aesthetic and tone weren't really impressive to me (except the soundtrack, which was totally rad)--I agree with Sean that it kind of felt devoid of aesthetic.

The parts of the game that were simply driving around in the open world were fun; those are the parts I liked. But to me Burnout Paradise did that stuff better, and felt much more coherent to me as a whole. I did also have some fun with the jumping around mechanic, but it didn't seem like a feature that was making or breaking the game.

[Twig]

I love Burnout Paradise and I wish they would make another like it.

my explanation that I'm really not fond of having to lose for hours before I start having fun won't really wash.

Well, that assumes that anyone ever really has fun. It is intense and insane and exhilarating and grotesquely engrossing and, you know, all that kinda stuff... Though I almost always enjoy my time with the game to some degree (even when losing), I very rarely actually have fun, hah. But, as always, YMMV.

[pabosher]

Now that I've had a chance to listen to the episode:

Thanks guys for answering my question. It was super rad - I rarely write in to my favourite media outlets, even fewer times get mentioned - and so to hear you discussing what it is about video games that makes you tick was super awesome.

To Chris: I'd just like to clarify something I said in the e-mail, regarding my interest in developers even during times of disinterest in the video game medium.

As I mentioned in the episode of Buried in the Credits with Steve, I'm a student studying Anthropology. I love people. I think they're weird, wonderful and amazing, and the art that people produce is an extension of that. When it comes to my personal preference and what I find interesting, I just want to talk to people and find out more about them. It's why I created Buried in the Credits which, in my opinion, is actually pretty different from the vast majority of video game journalistic outlets. Talking to Marek Ziemak from CD Projekt RED about why he thinks Eastern European games are so bleak and depressing compared to typically 'western' games is so much more rewarding to me than pretty much anything specific about The Witcher 2. I think that a lot of video game enthusiasts - at least, those I listen to and find interesting - will talk about a game's themes or mechanics and ask 'Why?' that mechanic works well or doesn't. 'Why does The Walking Dead forsake traditional adventure game solving, and instead focus on the story and player-choice mechanics?' That is an interesting question, don't get me wrong, but to me it's more interesting to ask 'Why did Sean, Jake, whoever it was, decide to make Lee a black character? Why choose a little girl to be the one he's looking after? What is it about them and their past experiences that led to this decision?'

I think there's a good example of that in the Steve Gaynor episode of BITC, wherein we're discussing why the themes of Minerva's Den are as they are, and he talks about his real life; his then-new wife, etc. Even if I hadn't played MD (which I have, and loved) then I still would've found that interesting.

PS: Thanks Sean for the plug; I will be in LA in early September and may be hopping by SF if you want to sort something out?

[dibs]

I am excited for more of Sean's Irish stories.

Well, the twist is that Sean was born in Cork. Cork is actually a separate political entity only related to the Republic via its history. The rest of us don't mind the secession as they are all langers down there anyhow.

[empika]

Loved the talk about kids being just poking at games and being enthralled even though they have no idea what the hell may be going on.

It reminded me of one of my first gaming experiences when I was about 7 or 8, Midwinter on the PC. To this day I have had no idea what that game was about or what you were supposed to actually do. I have just read the wikipedia article and had my mind blown, I'd never have guessed that was what the game was about. I'd like to see a remake as it sounds awesome!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwinter_(video_game)

Also, I can still remember most of the keys from X-Wing + Tie Fighter :|

[Kos Luftar]

Nice episode. So happy you guys are back again. Can't wait till my shirt gets to me so I can represent lol.

Anybody on the cast or on the forum, participated in the Guild Wars 2 betas?

[Merus]

Anybody on the cast or on the forum, participated in the Guild Wars 2 betas?

I have, and rather enjoyed my time with it. It takes the public event system a couple of MMORPGs have dabbled with and runs with it, so that the only "traditional" quests left are storyline quests. They've also decided that other players turning up shouldn't ever be unwelcome, so you get your own gathering nodes, loot, XP, all that. As a combination of all the decisions they've made, you get this really interesting gameplay loop where you basically strike out in a direction to see what's going on, and if you find a bunch of people you can follow them around as the event you're all doing triggers another event and another and so on. There's a lot of thought put into the game, and it lets them do some really interesting things. One area gave me quest credit for solving math problems.

I'm going to be really interested to see what happens to the community; there's a long-standing observation in MMO design theory called the Bartle player types, and I think this is the first AAA MMORPG that's really gone all-in on trying to cater to Explorers. (I can't think of any indie MMOs that have; A Tale In The Desert possibly, but its world is so boring.) The theory goes that trying to cater to Explorers specifically, without neglecting the other playstyles, should result in a stable proportion of player types, and it'll be interesting to see if that happens, and if so, what it looks like.

I'm curious to see what people who haven't built up a tolerance for MMO gameplay think of it, though.

[Twig]

How does GW2 try to appeal to explorers? I didn't play it enough to find out. That is, I played it for all of five minutes as the most conspicuous thief imaginable before I quit because they wanted me to kill an owl a bear and something else. I believe that was the first quest. If I were to actually play it once it comes out (is it already out?), I'd spend most of my time in the WvWvW (what is this awful name) area because I have no more patience for questing. Yuck. Dungeons and stuff are fine... That said, I hate the separation of the PvP and PvE areas. It's great for people who only like PvE, but it sucks for everyone else. It is lame. But AGAIN, I don't know enough about it. Aren't I wonderful!

WildStar is the first MMO I've ever heard of that rewards players for exploring. And I mean genuinely rewards them, so that it's a clear goal for people. I dunno much more about it than that. I'll just quote this completely unhelpful bit from the Wiki article:

Aside from the standard options of faction, race and class that are present in many MMORPG's, WildStar will introduce what Carbine Studios are calling the Path System. This is a separate character choice of Explorer, Soldier, Scientist or Settler each of which offers unique content and mechanics.

RPS has seemed somewhat optimistic about it in the past. I hate class systems, because they're too restrictive. Seems like this is similar.

Um, I guess this is sort of kind of relevant. I went quite rambly here.

[Merus]

How does GW2 try to appeal to explorers? I didn't play it enough to find out. That is, I played it for all of five minutes as the most conspicuous thief imaginable before I quit because they wanted me to kill an owl a bear and something else.

This would have been the first personal quest in the tutorial area, I'm guessing. After you're through the tutorial your quests start getting less frequent, one every few levels. Most of the gameplay is centred around renown areas and events. Generally the idea is that you head off to a renown area where it gives you a list of things you can help with, and any one of those gives credit. They... vary in how interesting they are. Thankfully, events tend to start up in those areas as well, and they almost always count as well for the renown area. They're more focused: there is a clear objective that everyone works towards, like protecting supplies or attacking a boss, and once it is done it stays that way for the time being. (NPCs will rebuild, usually if supplies are stolen or something another event starts to get them back). Monster kills give only a couple of XP, more if the monster has been alive for a while, so most of your XP comes from those events, as well as the map features. Each zone has a little checklist of features to uncover - waypoints so you can teleport around the map, points of interest around major landmarks, skill point challenges that earn points to unlock new abilities, and vistas that require you to clamber up somewhere high for a chunk of XP and a little cutscene swooping around the environment. If you check off all of them in an area, you get a massive chunk of XP and some very nice equipment for your level. Simple stuff, yes, but MMORPGs are not known for their progressive game design. There are also hidden areas where you're essentially clambering over the environment trying to work out how to get from A to B, and they also have prizes for getting to the end of them.

That said, I hate the separation of the PvP and PvE areas. It's great for people who only like PvE, but it sucks for everyone else. It is lame.

The only thing putting PvP and PvE together ever did was inspire gankers, who are frankly not very interesting. The WvW area is basically all the good parts about world PvP, but with no quests and everyone boosted up to the same HP totals or thereabouts. There's still exploration stuff in there, including a little mini-dungeon where opposing teams can activate traps, but it's in the background.

WildStar is the first MMO I've ever heard of that rewards players for exploring. And I mean genuinely rewards them, so that it's a clear goal for people.

I did see WildStar but I'm not sold on the way they're rewarding exploration. It seems like they're rewarding exploration in the same way that collectathons did, where designers think they need to give them a reward for the secrets they find, and that kills the motivation to actually explore because there's no chance of finding anything unexpected. Guild Wars 2 has a checklist of things to see, but you can make events happen in the world by poking around in the right places, and they can lead to weird little offshoots of the world.

I don't have much of a problem with class systems so long as the classes aren't fitting into specific roles. I've always resented RPGs that ask me to decide, as the first decision I make, what my playstyle is going to be. I haven't even started playing your game yet, I don't know what I'm going to find most fun. I haven't gotten very far in Mass Effect for that reason, and also because of a discussion on an earlier episode of Idle Thumbs that suggests that Mass Effect 1 with the Soldier is so much easier than any other path.

[Twig]

This would have been the first personal quest in the tutorial area, I'm guessing. After you're through the tutorial your quests start getting less frequent, one every few levels. Most of the gameplay is centred around renown areas and events. Generally the idea is that you head off to a renown area where it gives you a list of things you can help with, and any one of those gives credit. They... vary in how interesting they are. Thankfully, events tend to start up in those areas as well, and they almost always count as well for the renown area. They're more focused: there is a clear objective that everyone works towards, like protecting supplies or attacking a boss, and once it is done it stays that way for the time being. (NPCs will rebuild, usually if supplies are stolen or something another event starts to get them back). Monster kills give only a couple of XP, more if the monster has been alive for a while, so most of your XP comes from those events, as well as the map features. Each zone has a little checklist of features to uncover - waypoints so you can teleport around the map, points of interest around major landmarks, skill point challenges that earn points to unlock new abilities, and vistas that require you to clamber up somewhere high for a chunk of XP and a little cutscene swooping around the environment. If you check off all of them in an area, you get a massive chunk of XP and some very nice equipment for your level. Simple stuff, yes, but MMORPGs are not known for their progressive game design. There are also hidden areas where you're essentially clambering over the environment trying to work out how to get from A to B, and they also have prizes for getting to the end of them.

That all just sounds like cleverly disguised quests (as does WildStar after I investigated a bit more). It's true that something cleverly disguised can make an old trick seem interesting for a while, but I'm worried that I'll just get bored yet again. That's not really a slight on this game in particular, so much as MMOs in general, but there you have it.

The only thing putting PvP and PvE together ever did was inspire gankers, who are frankly not very interesting.

That is certainly your opinion! Suffice it to say, I very strongly disagree. I think the conflict makes things much more interesting than a bunch of dudes running around killing a bunch of respawning nonplayer dudes. There's an ever-present danger, the conflict breeds hostility between players (which then translates to more and more hostility as time goes on), a certain player-run justice system sometimes develops as the White Knights run around protecting the little dudes... I mean, what's the goddamn point of an MMO if there's no player interaction? It's true, cooperation is one form of interaction, but how many players actually explore as a group in the game world? Very few. Most are just solo players who occasionally become frustrated by the existence of other players. The dynamic, public group quests that don't require actually partying up to help each other out are a good start, but then they just turn into a bunch of dudes occasionally bumping into each other, never saying a word, and then splitting off again.

I did see WildStar but I'm not sold on the way they're rewarding exploration. It seems like they're rewarding exploration in the same way that collectathons did, where designers think they need to give them a reward for the secrets they find, and that kills the motivation to actually explore because there's no chance of finding anything unexpected. Guild Wars 2 has a checklist of things to see, but you can make events happen in the world by poking around in the right places, and they can lead to weird little offshoots of the world.

I honestly don't see any difference between the two at this point in time. WildStar can (and probably will) easily do what GW2 is doing, with time. WildStar is still far from release, AFAIK, which gives them all the more reason to look at GW2, see what they're doing right, and borrow.

I don't have much of a problem with class systems so long as the classes aren't fitting into specific roles. I've always resented RPGs that ask me to decide, as the first decision I make, what my playstyle is going to be. I haven't even started playing your game yet, I don't know what I'm going to find most fun. I haven't gotten very far in Mass Effect for that reason, and also because of a discussion on an earlier episode of Idle Thumbs that suggests that Mass Effect 1 with the Soldier is so much easier than any other path.

I agree that classes not fitting into specific roles does make them more interesting, but at that point... why bother having classes at all? It just seems like such a weird thing that has become standard for no reason. FWIW, I hate classes in tabletop roleplaying and single-player RPG video games, too. I like how they add a certain bit of flavor, like "I AM A BIG HULKING MASS OF DESTRUCTION", but I don't for a second believe that kind of thing can't be achieved outside the restrictions of a class system.

I honestly don't know why I'm even talking about this. I love love love the potential of MMOs, but I detest each and every one that comes out these days. Salem still sounds like it could be what I'm looking for, so I'm patiently anticipating more information on that.

Also I just finally listened to the episode, and while I was kind of intermittently distracted by other things, I don't recall any MMO or GW2 discussion! WHAT DID I MISS! aka if this is completely offtopic maybe we should move to another thread or something i dunno

[Nappi]

I really enjoyed Driver: San Francisco in all its silliness. The story was completely ridiculous of course and I couldn't help but laugh at how shitty undercover cop I was, as I hurled innocent civilians at my opponents just to win some street race that had nothing to do with my actual goal. If I remember correctly Tanner realized it was all just a dream at the very end, so until then, for what its worth, he was basically the most sadistic mass murderer in the planet. However, this didn't bother me nearly as much as killing or hurting innocent people in other games simply because it was all so ridiculous and I couldn't take the game seriously.

It was interesting to hear that San Francisco in Driver: San Francisco didn't remind Chris of the actual San Francisco. I have never been there, although I'd love to, but the city didn't remind me of the San Francisco of my imagination, either. I couldn't point out why it was so as I was playing, but the width of the streets and the lack of cable cars (which I assume to be everywhere) had probably a lot to do with it.

And as I have pointed out a couple of times already, the soundtrack for this game is indeed fantastic. Here is someone's Spotify playlist in case you missed my earlier post.

I loved Burnout Paradise as well. Criterion's new Need for Speed: Most Wanted seems to have a lot more in common with that game than the previous Most Wanted games. It has been a while since I have been looking forward to a Need for Speed game...

Also regarding inappropriate/controversial/insulting names, Joy Division immediately comes to mind. I suspect the origin of the name is unknown to many people or else it is "old history".