Jake

Idle Thumbs 66: It's Broadcast Jones!

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I'd rebutt the rebuttlal of my rebuttal but Chris answered me so I'm just kind of in a pool of fangasm. And we will just never agree, nor should we, though I did find Paradise City kinda devoid of life and found the 'super reflex' pedestrians in Driver SF rather charming. All I know is that I've put more time and got more enjoyment out of Driver than Burnout (and Burnout 3 is still the bestest one).

On another note I kept trying to get into Lords Managment with LoL, but that overwhelming pressure that was mentioned almost crippled my enjoyment. I'm not great in high pressure multiplayer and the only thing that was pulling me through was the fact I was on a team. Maybe if I try DotA2 and join the Consortium I might find a game where I'm not weeping because I am the weak link in the team and they all call me a noob and a feeder.

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I think Kos Lutfar brought Guild Wars 2 up apropros of nothing and it takes basically nothing to get me talking about MMOs. They're so interesting an idea that are frequently so flawed in execution, and the things they used to provide are basically everywhere nowadays. Call of Duty has a persistent level progression and basically every game ever has some kind of online connectivity and frequent updates, so what exactly are MMOs offering? But yeah, different thread for this.

I liked the discussion on what games do well; as someone who really likes storytelling in games, I'm kind fo forced to agree that games will probably never be particularly good at it, although I think we'd get closer if we had a way to mechnically represent conversations that required some participation from the player. Still, I think setting up systems that generate stories about systems are going to end up being more successful than writing a specific story and expecting it to resonate. Thankfully, we know enough about how stories are structured that we can actually approximate systems that can generate stories.

There's a web game called Fallen London that has an interesting approach to interactive storytelling - basically they recognised that with interactivity you can't really have more than one sequential story going at once. So they write the thing as have indeterminate amounts of time between each stage of the story, very in media res, and let players fill in the connecting bits with their own imagination. They do a couple of other things like have everything, like story progress, personality, accomplishments, etc. expressed through a specific 'quality' stat, and they can combine them to open or lock specific storylines. They do ethics stuff through the same system, so you get points towards your Hedonism or Austere or Magnanimous quality when you do those things, and while some stories require particular levels in the ethical qualities to unlock, most of the time it's just so you have a record of how often you've made those kinds of decisions.

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Heh, Fallen London. I played that for ages in 2011 (I even paid Fate for the ad-free/extra candle mode) but suddenly one day in October I just... stopped. I think the grinder aspects finally showed through the story and got to me, plus the game didn't quite look right on Mobile Safari so it was tough to play in my downtime at work.

I second the story-building aspects, though I could do without some of the steampunkier accents.

They noticed I stopped, because some Rubbery Men sent me a gift of Fate last month... I might try it again.

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Since you guys talked a bit about Demon's Souls, you should definitely enjoy Dark Souls as well. It's the same but better in pretty much every way, and also has an open world as opposed to the Nexus and different levels as in Demon's (not that Demon's way was bad, I just enjoy open worlds a lot more). Also, it takes place in the same world as the old King's Field games, which I think is really cool despite never having played them.

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Great episode, kudos all around.

I'm not sure why DOTA2 became the go-to LOMA for thumbs, kind of a shame, because for those not looking to dedicate their lives to one game League of Legends is a much more fun alternative. A lot of the issues new players have with DOTA2 can be dismissed with the ol' "it's still in beta" wand, but as far as LOMAs go, LoL is top of the pops in terms of learning curve. I like the way it handles a lot better personally, and the steps they have taken to branch away from DOTA1s model have mostly all been in a positive direction. The new maps are fun, the rune system is great, the difficulty curve is tweaked to make new players feel comfortable while still having a very high skill cap on many of the champions. The competitive scene is really fun to follow and the game keeps evolving it's high ELO metagame while somehow maintaining an exciting and well balanced list of top tier champions. Dota2 is still a fun game, but as a player and e-sports watcher I just think that LoL out-classes it on almost every level.

That being said, being a part of a consortium has always been high on my bucket list, so I've reinstalled Dota2 at work to get back into the groove and I'll try and play along with the Idle Thumbs LOMA community soon enough.

In terms of the alternative dimension simplified polygonal world of Silent Scope or whatever, cheers to that discussion. It's what makes middling games worse, but makes a game like Demon's Souls so amazing. It is the language that a game like Demon's Souls should be written in. I would also add another, far different game, that uses this aesthetic to great success is Deadly Premonition. The disconnect we feel playing games in this style worked perfectly in adding another surreal layer to that gem of a game.

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I'm not sure why DOTA2 became the go-to LOMA for thumbs

Sean might have a better reason, but as far as I'm aware it's just because Dota 2 is a game Sean happened to get into. It wasn't a case of "I'm interested in Lords Management, which would should I try?"

In terms of the alternative dimension simplified polygonal world of Silent Scope or whatever, cheers to that discussion. It's what makes middling games worse, but makes a game like Demon's Souls so amazing. It is the language that a game like Demon's Souls should be written in. I would also add another, far different game, that uses this aesthetic to great success is Deadly Premonition. The disconnect we feel playing games in this style worked perfectly in adding another surreal layer to that gem of a game.

Even though Deadly Premonition never really resonated with me, I understand why it did with some people and I think you're right.

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I'm not sure why DOTA2 became the go-to LOMA for thumbs, kind of a shame, because for those not looking to dedicate their lives to one game League of Legends is a much more fun alternative.

See, you say that, but I started with LoL, and while I had fun* with it, Dota 2 is just infinitely more fun* to me. Not least because it feels so much more rewarding when I do well. I would contest many - well, actually... all - of your statements, but it really just comes down to opinion, and since that's the case, I'm glad Dota 2 became the go-to game in the genre. Yay for the superior game winning! U;

*Although, as I described earlier in the thread, "fun" is a characteristic that I rarely prescribe to the genre**. Engaging is perhaps a better word.

**I feel like Tom Chick. "GAMES AREN'T FUN." (I am a fan of Tom Chick's writing.)

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See, you say that, but I started with LoL, and while I had fun* with it, Dota 2 is just infinitely more fun* to me. Not least because it feels so much more rewarding when I do well. I would contest many - well, actually... all - of your statements, but it really just comes down to opinion, and since that's the case, I'm glad Dota 2 became the go-to game in the genre. Yay for the superior game winning! U;

And glad you should be! There's no reason to compare pro/con lists, I shouldn't have taken that tack, let's all just manage lords and have fun*.

*I find LoL both fun and engaging. ;)

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It was a minor example in a larger point that Sean made, but I want to affirm that Batman: Ego is, indeed, a really good one-off Batman story. Darwyn Cooke does great work.

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And glad you should be! There's no reason to compare pro/con lists, I shouldn't have taken that tack, let's all just manage lords and have fun*.

*I find LoL both fun and engaging. ;)

I actually do have fun in LoL, now, because when I play it with my friends these days - now that Dota 2 is our go-to game - we run around in troll-mode. Well, I say troll-mode, but that's only because it has the (sometimes fortunate) side effect of infuriating the poor soul who gets stuck as our fourth/fifth. Really we just do it because it's nice to have a lighthearted game in the genre we don't take seriously. I run revive/ghost exclusively. Always random lock-in immediately. Now that is fun.

When we play Dota, we (or at least, I), like to actually try. This is something League never did for me (for various reasons, many of which a fan of the game would surely get all in a tizzy about). Sure, I liked playing it well enough, but that was in large part just because I liked playing with my friends. Dota ignites something I didn't know I actually had: competitive spirit. I have always hated losing and loved winning, but there's something about this game that makes me not only want to win, but to improve... a lot. If I thought I had the skills necessary, I would honestly consider one day entering a real tournament. This is out of the ordinary for me! Fortunately, I'm more than capable of realizing that I'm nowhere near that level.

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I didn't enjoy the Driver demo at all so i skipped the release of the game. I just didn't enjoy the concept of jumping in to other cars and didn't find the driving in the demo that fun.

And yes Driv3r (ugh) was released in the post GTA3 world so of course they felt the need to add the ability to walk around. Except it was very limited from what I recall and the controls were atrocious and it didn't amount to anything near an open world.

That said and on an entirely different note I'm very excited about Grand Theft Auto 5 because I'm looking forward to driving around in a facsimile of Los Angeles. GTA 4 did a great job of getting across what New York is like and since I actually live in Los Angeles I eagerly await the ability to cruise around the city. Which is probably why I enjoyed LA Noire more than a lot of people. I was in a similar situation where I had moved out of Los Angeles temporarily when LA Noire came out and I would just drive around for a minute or two in the game randomly and be like, "Oh MAN HOLLYWOOD AND VINE, I'VE BEEN THERE!" Doing some virtual tourism or something.

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Great episode, kudos all around.

I'm not sure why DOTA2 became the go-to LOMA for thumbs, kind of a shame, because for those not looking to dedicate their lives to one game League of Legends is a much more fun alternative. A lot of the issues new players have with DOTA2 can be dismissed with the ol' "it's still in beta" wand, but as far as LOMAs go, LoL is top of the pops in terms of learning curve. I like the way it handles a lot better personally, and the steps they have taken to branch away from DOTA1s model have mostly all been in a positive direction. The new maps are fun, the rune system is great, the difficulty curve is tweaked to make new players feel comfortable while still having a very high skill cap on many of the champions. The competitive scene is really fun to follow and the game keeps evolving it's high ELO metagame while somehow maintaining an exciting and well balanced list of top tier champions. Dota2 is still a fun game, but as a player and e-sports watcher I just think that LoL out-classes it on almost every level.

That being said, being a part of a consortium has always been high on my bucket list, so I've reinstalled Dota2 at work to get back into the groove and I'll try and play along with the Idle Thumbs LOMA community soon enough.

In terms of the alternative dimension simplified polygonal world of Silent Scope or whatever, cheers to that discussion. It's what makes middling games worse, but makes a game like Demon's Souls so amazing. It is the language that a game like Demon's Souls should be written in. I would also add another, far different game, that uses this aesthetic to great success is Deadly Premonition. The disconnect we feel playing games in this style worked perfectly in adding another surreal layer to that gem of a game.

I agree in some ways, with LoL I do like how they occasionally streamline some mechanics/abilities/controls but I got really, really bored with it. To the point where I can pick up any champion and do well without ever reading anything on the champ. With dota 2 there's a lot of freshness and complexity for me, plenty of lords I haven't played and the strategy of it is FAR more diverse, a lot of LoL's strat is very etched in stone.

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Hello all.

After listening to the Driver talk I thought I'd share with the community. I worked on the city in Driver SF and can confirm that the majority of it was created by Reflections in Newcastle Upon Tyne, Ubisoft Montreal also assisted. I can't say how many of the Montreal team had visited San Fran but I know that the majority of the UK team hadn't, I think that a lot of us (like me) hadn't visited the States at all, obviously we tried to keep it as close to the real place as possible but there are a great many constraints in creating an entire game city that make this near impossible.

The Silent Scope discussion is interesting, I very much encourage you all to check out the Wii version of the game, it is a completely separate game that was developed side by side with the PC/console version. It's actually a prequel set before Driver 1 but the relevant bit is that it has light gun shooting via the Wiimote so the Thumb crew were a lot closer to reality than they realised :)

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On the topic of Dark Souls:

I think the most amazing thing about the game is the multiplayer. You spend so much time memorizing enemy locations and attack patters, so that you can mow through them with ease. The battles become rote and simple, but the game would still be amazing if that was all it had.

However, if you're human and trucking around, you can be invaded by another PC. Somewhere, in your world, there is now a new, more deadly enemy who is bent on killing you. They aren't restrained by needing to be approached by you and getting triggered. They are cunning and malicious. They make all other enemies in the game benign because your heart rate will never soar as much as the instant you are invaded. It's amazing. At this point in the game, chances are that you'll be invaded by someone who really knows what they are doing and are equipped with a scary amount of equipment. That means that your chances of survival are zero, but you still have hope that you might fight them off. As we all know, that's the best way to teach despair: give the person some hope.

I can't get over how amazing this game is.

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A video game playing field where someone can suddenly appear and wreck you is very hard for me to commit to liking or hating. If there are threats to both of you, as you described, while also being wary of each other, count me in. That tension is so good. But when it's on the level of, "Oh man a mine, totally going to get some materials and- oh whoops some asshole just fucked me because this is Ultima Online" then I hate it forever.

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On the topic of Dark Souls:

I think the most amazing thing about the game is the multiplayer. You spend so much time memorizing enemy locations and attack patters, so that you can mow through them with ease. The battles become rote and simple, but the game would still be amazing if that was all it had.

However, if you're human and trucking around, you can be invaded by another PC. Somewhere, in your world, there is now a new, more deadly enemy who is bent on killing you. They aren't restrained by needing to be approached by you and getting triggered. They are cunning and malicious. They make all other enemies in the game benign because your heart rate will never soar as much as the instant you are invaded. It's amazing. At this point in the game, chances are that you'll be invaded by someone who really knows what they are doing and are equipped with a scary amount of equipment. That means that your chances of survival are zero, but you still have hope that you might fight them off. As we all know, that's the best way to teach despair: give the person some hope.

I can't get over how amazing this game is.

Don't attack me!

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Man, i can't wait for that on PC.

Also, was "Motoon" a mispronunciation, or am I missing out on some amazing historical cartoon music.

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My opinion on LoL players:

tumblr_lxs7w9vJIa1qmg4zfo1_500.jpg

e: Seriously though. The engine Valve has made is so superior to the garbage Riot uses for LoL, that dota2 is worth to try for 10+ hours just because of that.

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FWIW, I chose DOTA as opposed to LoL on a lark, but mostly because I was so curious as to why Valve would make the game (whereas Riot, intelligently, built an entire company around the genre). I don't really care of LoL of HoN is better -- like a lot of consumer products DOTA got its hooks into me first so it's the one I play and will stick with. I could see trying the others for the sake of curiosity but I wasn't (an am currently not) looking to find the "best" LM game -- just the one I was willing to let kick my ass for a while.

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Hello all.

After listening to the Driver talk I thought I'd share with the community. I worked on the city in Driver SF and can confirm that the majority of it was created by Reflections in Newcastle Upon Tyne, Ubisoft Montreal also assisted. I can't say how many of the Montreal team had visited San Fran but I know that the majority of the UK team hadn't, I think that a lot of us (like me) hadn't visited the States at all, obviously we tried to keep it as close to the real place as possible but there are a great many constraints in creating an entire game city that make this near impossible.

The Silent Scope discussion is interesting, I very much encourage you all to check out the Wii version of the game, it is a completely separate game that was developed side by side with the PC/console version. It's actually a prequel set before Driver 1 but the relevant bit is that it has light gun shooting via the Wiimote so the Thumb crew were a lot closer to reality than they realised :)

Ok, a lot going on here.

First, I hope it don't come across like we were dumping on the games -- as someone who makes games I sensitive to it coming across like that -- and want to say thanks for piping up and saying "hey I worked on that" and providing some insight. While I've never worked on a racing game (at least one that has shipped) did you find that the technical needs for an actual street (ie: it needs to be x wide and have y field of view, etc) was constraining you from making a city that evoked the things that people conjure up when thinking of the streets of SF? (Sharp, downright dangerous hills, tight corners, narrow alleyways, ever-present skyline and landmarks, etc.) Did you guys have any "does this feel like SF" discussions at all? Perhaps the game opens up to feel like SF towards the end (I only played a few hours) but the game's title location didn't make a big statement in the beginning (which seems like the place you would want it to). Anyway, I'm just curious as to how these types of larger budget genre-games get made and what, at the end of the day, is the most important in their execution.

Second: are you trying to say that the Driver universe is actually canonical with the Silent Scope universe?! I was making a goof. Important if True.

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On the topic of Dark Souls:

I think the most amazing thing about the game is the multiplayer. You spend so much time memorizing enemy locations and attack patters, so that you can mow through them with ease. The battles become rote and simple, but the game would still be amazing if that was all it had.

However, if you're human and trucking around, you can be invaded by another PC. Somewhere, in your world, there is now a new, more deadly enemy who is bent on killing you. They aren't restrained by needing to be approached by you and getting triggered. They are cunning and malicious. They make all other enemies in the game benign because your heart rate will never soar as much as the instant you are invaded. It's amazing. At this point in the game, chances are that you'll be invaded by someone who really knows what they are doing and are equipped with a scary amount of equipment. That means that your chances of survival are zero, but you still have hope that you might fight them off. As we all know, that's the best way to teach despair: give the person some hope.

I can't get over how amazing this game is.

The multiplayer in the Souls games is fantastic, but sometimes - rarely - fucks you over proper. I was playing Demon's Souls last night (I went back to it intending to complete it before I allow myself to keep playing Dark Souls) and came upon three Black Phantoms. Now, for anyone not familiar with the game, Black Phantoms are either other players invading your world or, as in this case, unique enemies that won't respawn once killed, are supremely dangerous and are worth a lot of souls. Often they drop something cool too.

Anyway, as I was approaching these Phantoms, I got the message that someone was invading my world. Obviously I went into panic mode, quickly spotted the invader - and saw them run past me and attack the Black Phantoms I was about to tangle with. The invader killed them all and then went on to kill me, thus robbing me of any loot I'd've gotten.

Still awesome though.

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My opinion on LoL players:

tumblr_lxs7w9vJIa1qmg4zfo1_500.jpg

e: Seriously though. The engine Valve has made is so superior to the garbage Riot uses for LoL, that dota2 is worth to try for 10+ hours just because of that.

Yeah, but LOL is a fun experience that you can actually play here and there and be generally relaxed about. Heroes of Newerth looked so much better, but the people were awful. I only played Dota 2 briefly, but I really don't need to spend what little time I have to play online games getting my ass handed to me. I find LOL a lot more accessible. Maybe that's a horrific sentiment to express in the eyes of anyone with a modicum of experience or skill in Lords management, but I'm just not going to find the time to get stuck in and get better.

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A police officer goes into a coma and creates a dream referencing a bunch of films about cool cops, where he gets to have cool car chases, and everything he does is just and nobody gets hurt in any of it? I thought that was the joke.

E> and the whole world is ridiculously clean and pg?

and his partner is his best friend, but not quite as cool as cool cop Tanner Driver

and the assassin is a sexy lady

and one of the first missions is helping a kid use sweet driving skills to scare his bully driving teacher, which obviously has nothing to do with anything in Tanners childhood.

3 hours in this game is fantastic.

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