Feminism

[Dewar]

I think that PAX is one of the safest gatherings of 40,000 people that I have ever been present at. I think that they are doing their best to make it all inclusive, but no gathering of that size is ever going to be perfect. I think that Mike has said some really stupid things on stage, but that doesn't take away the value of the conference as a whole. Finally, I don't think that a diversity area is their attempt to segregate or not make it a top priority, I think it is their attempt to showcase that sort of information somewhere where it might get more press than a forgotten corner of the indie megabooth. Whether their idea (which isn't even a final draft) is a good one or not, I don't know, but I don't see the malice here.

[Argobot]

Well, it is segregating, because they are literally cordoning off a part of the conference for "diversity" instead of, you know, integrating that into the entire conference. It allows the people who actually need some kind of diversity instruction to easily ignore it.

 

This feels like PA wanting to defend themselves from criticism without actually doing anything to address the criticism. The intentions may not be hateful, but they're certainly not pure or good.

[Dewar]

Well there's an Indie Megabooth, but people don't say that PAX is segregating indie devs away from the rest of the conference. There's a difference between walling off an area and saying that you have to stay behind this line and providing a space that concentrates a certain ideal to give it more visibility. We won't know what side of that line it falls on until it's implemented.

[Stuart]

So wait, not sure I'm understanding this correctly. PA is literally creating a little corner in their convention floor so minorities and disabled persons can mingle among themselves? This is PA's response to accusations of them being near-sighted and convoluted on their views in gender, sexual assault, and minorities? By making those people be segregated away from anyone that is "not different" (aka, white, straight, and male)? 

 

So that means, since I'm Latin American, I'm to supposed to be glad that I have my segregated corner to myself rather than have the ENTIRETY of the fucking convention for myself and everyone other fucking human being there? What in the shit is this? You can't fend off bigotry against minorities by shoving them all in one fucking lounge. You do that by including them and making them feel welcome EVERYWHERE AND ANYWHERE.

 

This is fucking ridiculous. And what bugs me most is that I bet PA is proud of themselves. 

[Stuart]

Well there's an Indie Megabooth, but people don't say that PAX is segregating indie devs away from the rest of the conference. There's a difference between walling off an area and saying that you have to stay behind this line and providing a space that concentrates a certain ideal to give it more visibility. We won't know what side of that line it falls on until it's implemented.

 

Indie devs aren't a human minority, it's a label for people who develop games independently. 

[Roderick]

It's pretty double. They definitely have the best intentions here, there's no doubt that PAX wants to be seen as super inclusive and friendly. The booth is also more of an information distribution thing, I think, but the idea of have a special section where the weird people are well and truly safe, so come on down and have a safe convention, is a little, well, I dunno, icky.

 

In the Netherlands we have a ton of anime conventions, even one that's geared at LBGT people, but on all of them there's just this massive 'anything goes' vibe. It has always felt like a place where you could totally let your guard down and show yourself no matter who you are. There was never, and I hope there won't ever be, the need for a special section to educate the public not to be bigots.

[clyde]

Let's brainstorm some ideas for how PAX can more effectively address their exclusionary tendencies.

[Dewar]

Indie devs aren't a human minority, it's a label for people who develop games independently. 

 

Providing a place for like people to gather, if they desire, does not necessarily impy that those people aren't welcome elsewhere. PAX has community run "women in video games" type panels, that does not mean that women's issues are not welcome anywhere else besides that panel. All I'm saying is that people are getting awfully angry about something that hasn't even been approved, let alone fully fleshed out. It could span the spectrum anywhere from an informational booth directing people to panel tracks that might discuss these issues, to an area where a bunch of games on one theme can be seen together, all the way down to a prison for all those wierder than us. Who knows?

[Zeusthecat]

Did this whole shitstorm surrounding PA stem entirely from comments that have been made from that Mike dude or is there some systemic issue within PA that is at the root of all of this? I am way out of the loop on the history of this whole thing and I don't know a whole lot about Penny Arcade to begin with.

[Stuart]

 

Did this whole shitstorm surrounding PA stem entirely from comments that have been made from that Mike dude or is there some systemic issue within PA that is at the root of all of this? I am way out of the loop on the history of this whole thing and I don't know a whole lot about Penny Arcade to begin with.

 

This will fill you in on the stupid shit PA has been doing for a good while.

 

http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

 

http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/60283610877/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline-part-2

 

 

Providing a place for like people to gather, if they desire, does not necessarily impy that those people aren't welcome elsewhere. PAX has community run "women in Video games" type panels, that does not mean that women's issues are not welcome anywhere else besides that panel. All I'm saying is that people are getting awfully angry about something that hasn't even been approved, let alone fully fleshed out. It could span the spectrum anywhere from an informational booth directing people to panel tracks that might discuss these issues, to an area where a bunch of games on one theme can be seen together, all the way down to a prison for all those wierder than us. Who knows?

 

I'd rather PAX be place where there aren't signs that say that I'll feel most comfortable here or there. I want it to be a place where I can feel comfortable ANYWHERE. Same can be said about the Indie Megabooth, why can't they share space with the big time AAA games? Why does being indie exclude you from sharing the (much brighter) spotlight of AAA studios? Also, I think Sarah said it pretty well:

 

Well, it is segregating, because they are literally cordoning off a part of the conference for "diversity" instead of, you know, integrating that into the entire conference. It allows the people who actually need some kind of diversity instruction to easily ignore it.

 

This feels like PA wanting to defend themselves from criticism without actually doing anything to address the criticism. The intentions may not be hateful, but they're certainly not pure or good.

 

I agree. These are issues that are supposed to be in the forefront FOR EVERYONE who cares about Video games, not just those who are affected by those issues. If this is a panel-like thing, then its segregating important discussions from main panels. If this, as it seems, a cornered off space for people who aren't straight, white, male, and not disabled, then its segregating people and inclusiveness. Sure, minorities can decide not to go that lounge, but the fact there is still an option to be treated differently rather than an equal is still fucking stupid. 

 

It's like making a bathroom just for Latino people and saying "HERE, YOU CAN TAKE A SHIT WITH YOUR FELLOW LATINOS. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO, BUT YA KNOW, YOU GOT THE OPTION TO SHIT THERE, AWAY FROM EVERYONE WHO'S NOT LATINO. BECAUSE YOU'RE DIIIIIFFEREEENT."

 

Fuck that shit.

 

EDIT: Sorry if I sound angry, this stuff just gets me riled up. I'm not angry at anyone here, just PA.

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm reserving final judgement until it gets implemented, but here are my thoughts.

 

I don't see the hub as a euphemism for ghetto or prison or any other similar thing.  No one is going to say you have to go hang out in the corner if you aren't a straight, white male.  In fact PAX would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing that since a huge portion of the attendees don't fit that description.  And I very much doubt that all the games/devs/panels/info is going to only exist in this one section.  It's more of a centralized location to find a lot of it, in the same way that PAX itself is a place to find out stuff about games but that doesn't mean games don't exist outside of PAX.  I'm sure the show floor will also include some similar content, since the promotional registration policy states it's required for promoters to have a presense in the EXPO hall as well (though if you only wish to interface with the community and not promote anything then you don't need representation in the hall).  There will still be panels, still be games, still be people outside the hub who are going to talk about these things.  The hub is perhaps just a way to help highlight and focus it a bit.

 

On the other hand, I can also see it as a misstep.  In the case of the Indie Megabooth and most game companies, they're purposely trying to make themselves stand out from the crowd.  They want to be noticed for their crazy new thing.  But when it comes to people, specifically the ones the hub will supposedly cater to, I don't think the idea is to stand out because you're different.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point isn't to be different, it's to be equal.  They don't want to be seen as different, they want to be seen and treated the same way anyone else is.  You don't necessarily do that by shining a spotlight on it.  I am Asian and therefore in a minority, but I don't want to be thought of as "the Asian guy".  The proper thing to do would be to integrate the hub's intentions into the show's core itself, give it equal footing with other big name events.  Maybe even have Mike specifically state that's hes going to one of these panels.

 

There's some contradiction in my thoughts here but I'm trying to see both sides of the argument before I make a snap decision that this is good or evil.

[clyde]

Would a panel where Penny Arcade's founders and their critics discuss grievances and concerns encourage diversity?

[Dewar]

I'm reserving final judgement until it gets implemented, but here are my thoughts.

 

I don't see the hub as a euphemism for ghetto or prison or any other similar thing.  No one is going to say you have to go hang out in the corner if you aren't a straight, white male.  In fact PAX would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing that since a huge portion of the attendees don't fit that description.  And I very much doubt that all the games/devs/panels/info is going to only exist in this one section.  It's more of a centralized location to find a lot of it, in the same way that PAX itself is a place to find out stuff about games but that doesn't mean games don't exist outside of PAX.  I'm sure the show floor will also include some similar content, since the promotional registration policy states it's required for promoters to have a presense in the EXPO hall as well (though if you only wish to interface with the community and not promote anything then you don't need representation in the hall).  There will still be panels, still be games, still be people outside the hub who are going to talk about these things.  The hub is perhaps just a way to help highlight and focus it a bit.

 

On the other hand, I can also see it as a misstep.  In the case of the Indie Megabooth and most game companies, they're purposely trying to make themselves stand out from the crowd.  They want to be noticed for their crazy new thing.  But when it comes to people, specifically the ones the hub will supposedly cater to, I don't think the idea is to stand out because you're different.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point isn't to be different, it's to be equal.  They don't want to be seen as different, they want to be seen and treated the same way anyone else is.  You don't necessarily do that by shining a spotlight on it.  I am Asian and therefore in a minority, but I don't want to be thought of as "the Asian guy".  The proper thing to do would be to integrate the hub's intentions into the show's core itself, give it equal footing with other big name events.  Maybe even have Mike specifically state that's hes going to one of these panels.

 

There's some contradiction in my thoughts here but I'm trying to see both sides of the argument before I make a snap decision that this is good or evil.

 

I pretty much agree with this post entirely with one proviso. I think that there are some developers who want to stand out for the themes in their games (stuff like Depression Quest comes to mind) and this area could be a great boon to those games that have a feminist or LBGT theme. If used in this way, a seperate area showcasing that stuff could be good.

[Dewar]

Would a panel where Penny Arcade's founders and their critics discuss grievances and concerns encourage diversity?

 

It might, but I'd be afraid that Mike wouldn't use the level of tact needed to participate in such a panel.

[clyde]

How about a game-jam with the theme "My experience at PAX". Well known names can be especially encouraged to participate along with developers that have been critical of Penny Arcade in the past. The resulting games can be played at PAX and they are also available for download and include exclusive Steam-cards.

I'm just shooting these out because I'm not confident about what they should do.

[SecretAsianMan]

I pretty much agree with this post entirely with one proviso. I think that there are some developers who want to stand out for the themes in their games (stuff like Depression Quest comes to mind) and this area could be a great boon to those games that have a feminist or LBGT theme. If used in this way, a seperate area showcasing that stuff could be good.

 

That is very true, if the hub isn't implemented in a way that marginalizes the significance as just another "different thing".  A showcase is nice, but care needs to be taken that it isn't shown as one of "those" games and instead as an important game in it's own right.  Part of that is up to the developer to show, but part of it is also in what form they're allowed to show it.

[clyde]

Maybe they could very publically ask for help from a coalition of anti-oppression oriented minority members within the gaming community.

[Dewar]

That is very true, if the hub isn't implemented in a way that marginalizes the significance as just another "different thing".  A showcase is nice, but care needs to be taken that it isn't shown as one of "those" games and instead as an important game in it's own right.  Part of that is up to the developer to show, but part of it is also in what form they're allowed to show it.

 

I think that PAX is moving toward having a lot of little showcases to try and protect various smaller groups from being overrun by the big developers. Hopefully this is another step in that direction rather than another step toward alienating folks.

 

How about a game-jam with the theme "My experience at PAX". Well known names can be especially encouraged to participate along with developers that have been critical of Penny Arcade in the past. The resulting games can be played at PAX and they are also available for download and include exclusive Steam-cards.

I'm just shooting these out because I'm not confident about what they should do.

 

That's a really cool idea. It might be tough to pull off, but I'd like to see it.

[Dewar]

Did this whole shitstorm surrounding PA stem entirely from comments that have been made from that Mike dude or is there some systemic issue within PA that is at the root of all of this? I am way out of the loop on the history of this whole thing and I don't know a whole lot about Penny Arcade to begin with.

 

There have been some reported instances of sexual harassment and other incidents at the show, but most of the beef that people have with PA revolves around those links that TheCineaste posted above, as well as a series of ignorant twitter comments by Mike basically boiling to "Men have a penis and women have a vagina" followed by stumbling around like an idiot trying to un-offend transgendered person and instead making it worse.

[Nachimir]

You know, I hope this infects the entire event and makes it a better place, but I suspect it will be exactly as a bunch of friends referred to it on twitter: the diversity ghetto. If you're going to do safe spaces, commit to it and make it the whole event.

[TychoCelchuuu]

There have been some reported instances of sexual harassment and other incidents at the show, but most of the beef that people have with PA revolves around those links that TheCineaste posted above, as well as a series of ignorant twitter comments by Mike basically boiling to "Men have a penis and women have a vagina" followed by stumbling around like an idiot trying to un-offend transgendered person and instead making it worse.

For me, it's the transphobic stuff Mike tweeted that really encapsulates my issue with Penny Arcade. When people called him out on it, his immediate response was to go into defensive mode, get into a bunch of arguments. That in itself is not a big deal: I'd rather people weren't transphobic, obviously, but "men have dicks and women have vajayjays" is about the level of understanding a lot of people are at, and I'm sure he got some angry tweets so getting defensive is understandable.

The bigger issue is where it went from there. He first posted this then later this. To make a long story short, his position is more or less "I have lots of friends, even a trans friend, and I've never hated anyone for anything. If I was an asshole it was your fault. People keep yelling at me about apparently hateful stuff I've said, but I don't hate anyone, so clearly they're wrong. I'll donate some money to a charity they like and then peace out."

This basically encapsulates his entire approach to these sorts of questions. Say some hateful stuff, get into heated arguments with those who call him out for it, blame the people who called him out for being jerks about it (as if his hateful stuff in the first place wasn't its own particular brand of rudeness), claim that he's actually a good guy, and then ignore the whole situation.

For a normal person I guess I wouldn't care so much. I'd think less of them and move on. But Mike is one of the top voices in video games. He and Jerry were on Time's list of 100 most important people or whatever a few years back. He prides himself on speaking his mind, telling it like it is, being beholden to nobody, and standing up for gamers. Penny Arcade started PAX because they wanted their own convention. They started Child's Play because they wanted the world to see that gamers aren't terrible people. They're the face of PAX and the face of one of the most popular gaming webcomics. People hang on their words and defend them with zeal and vigor in any conversation.

For most of their life this has made sense, because they were the voice of the downtrodden. Gamers get shit! Nerds get shit! I can't remember which PAX it was, or if it was even a PAX, but I distinctly remember them giving advice to some poor, downtrodden nerd in high school, sad because he was unpopular: "when you grow up, you'll run shit" they said, or something like it, and everyone cheered. PAX is a safe gathering place for nerds to nerd out about games without people making fun of them. Mike and Jerry are the success stories, the unpopular kids in high school who grew up to become people who play video games for a living. Their message is all about nerd culture and what it can be.

So when Mike goes around spouting sexist shit or transphobic shit and so on, and when he blames the arguments on people who engage him (in his words, "My reaction when I feel backed into corner is to be an asshole. It’s essentially how I defend myself") it has consequences. Gaming is not a safe place for a lot of people. PAX thinks it's progressive for banning booth babes. Having a policy against attractive women are used as bait to lure people into your video game booth is seen as some sort of stand rather than the only sane choice. What gaming definitely doesn't need is for its mavericks, the ones who tell it like it is and take no shit, to be dismissive at best and hostile at worst to marginalized voices. Those voices already get threatened with rape and death when they do Kickstarters for their video series or post their game to Steam Greenlight. They don't need Penny Arcade saying hateful stuff about them too.

[Stuart]

You know, I hope this infects the entire event and makes it a better place, but I suspect it will be exactly as a bunch of friends referred to it on twitter: the diversity ghetto. If you're going to do safe spaces, commit to it and make it the whole event.

 

Nailed it.

[Dewar]

While I agree with some parts of Tycho's post and not others, I want to point out that there's a lot of stupidity surrounding Mike and his recent comments, but not a whole lot of complaints about the event itself. I still think PAX is basically a great and safe place, no matter what stupid comments might be made by PA folks. That's what sucks and makes me want to argue this so much. It feels like so many people are condeming one of the best and most inclusive events in gaming today because one guy has no tact.

[Joewintergreen]

Tycho you are so good at writing posts

[Henroid]

If anyone is interested, Robert Khoo wrote to us a bit on the PA forum RE the diversity hub.

 

Hi, everyone!

I just wanted to quickly address some of the questions I've been getting about the Diversity Hub and Lounge and the thinking behind it.

A few months ago when the idea was bouncing around, we reached out to a friend of ours, Benjamin Williams (co-founder of Queer Geek and GaymerX) to help with the concept and execution. Together, we've been working to create something that both celebrates and raises awareness of different, underrepresented gamer groups while also encouraging attendees to discover where all the different diversity-driven content at the show can be found. (Although we've always had this content at the show, we wanted to give people an easier means of finding it)

Based on feedback from previous shows, it's clear that having a diverse lineup of both content and exhibitors is something folks want, but the reality is that some of those places might not be able to afford a booth. So we carved out a large room at the show in a high traffic area that highlighted some of these great organizations and offered tables to them for free.

Some of the criticism I've been hearing is that this isolates these groups and tries to shine an uncomfortable spotlight on them. Although I can see how some might see it that way, the goal is to actually drive awareness and even celebrate the groups and their goals. We felt that by unifying the groups, it created a really strong, positive focal point that would attract people to it, similar to how the Indie Megabooth does on the show floor. That said, if it doesn't work out the way we'd like it to or if it doesn't have the right vibe, we're flexible enough to do things differently for future shows.

The fact is that this discussion is already ensuring that the area won't be ignored, which I think is great. I really do hope people understand that we are constantly trying to make the show better.

I also want to make clear that we have always strived to make the ENTIRETY of PAX a safe place via our policies, our content, and our dedication to our attendees. The Diversity Hub and Lounge isn't meant to say the rest of the show isn't diverse or safe - it's meant to highlight, educate and celebrate. Thanks all!

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/185642/some-thoughts-on-the-diversity-hub-and-lounge